Elan Morin Tedronai or Mierin Eronaile?

[Suttree]

We've yet to see Lanfear challenged on her own ground, so who knows how capable she really is.

 

The BWB apparently?

 

As it backs up Moggy's claim that is a check in favor of interpreting her thoughts of superior skills in Tar in relation to Lanfear as correct. Again the BWB is meant to flesh out our understanding. Are their mistakes made by the author? Sure, but this is a pretty straight forward statement backing up the only thing we have to go off in the books. I can see why you may be skeptical, just saying it's more than enough for me as I don't believe the BWB is attempting to mislead us on this topic.

[Bob T Dwarf]

We've yet to see Lanfear challenged on her own ground, so who knows how capable she really is.

 

The BWB apparently?

 

As it backs up Moggy's claim that is a check in favor of interpreting her thoughts of superior skills in Tar in relation to Lanfear as correct. Again the BWB is meant to flesh out our understanding. Are their mistakes made by the author? Sure, but this is a pretty straight forward statement backing up the only thing we have to go off in the books. I can see why you may be skeptical, just saying it's more than enough for me as I don't believe the BWB is attempting to mislead us on this topic.

 

I don't know whether there is any deception going on or not. I'm just saying that we haven't seen anything - anywhere - yet that demonstrates which, if either, of the ladies is correct.

 

All we have is claims ( really nothing more than rumors ). Lanfear says she's queen bee. Moghedien says she is. The BWB offers nothing verifiable.

 

Rumor repeated is not truth. Truth requires proof - an experiment that produces a repeatable result. We have no such proof - so far. The only thing that both the words and the actions of the ladies involved proves is that they don't like each other one little bit.

[Suttree]

We've yet to see Lanfear challenged on her own ground, so who knows how capable she really is.

 

The BWB apparently?

 

As it backs up Moggy's claim that is a check in favor of interpreting her thoughts of superior skills in Tar in relation to Lanfear as correct. Again the BWB is meant to flesh out our understanding. Are their mistakes made by the author? Sure, but this is a pretty straight forward statement backing up the only thing we have to go off in the books. I can see why you may be skeptical, just saying it's more than enough for me as I don't believe the BWB is attempting to mislead us on this topic.

 

I don't know whether there is any deception going on or not. I'm just saying that we haven't seen anything - anywhere - yet that demonstrates which, if either, of the ladies is correct.

 

All we have is claims ( really nothing more than rumors ). Lanfear says she's queen bee. Moghedien says she is. The BWB offers nothing verifiable.

 

Rumor repeated is not truth. Truth requires proof - an experiment that produces a repeatable result. We have no such proof - so far. The only thing that both the words and the actions of the ladies involved proves is that they don't like each other one little bit.

 

Surely a third party verification relating to Moggy's claims is a check in favor of her being right. You can't just rule it out completely with a blanket statement that since not everything is 100% correct in in the BWB(IIRC I've yet to see any glaring errors) then the claims it makes about Mogggy being superior are not true as well. In addition the BWB has long been an excepted source on these boards, it's not as if it's WoT wiki or summat.

[Bob T Dwarf]

We've yet to see Lanfear challenged on her own ground, so who knows how capable she really is.

 

The BWB apparently?

 

As it backs up Moggy's claim that is a check in favor of interpreting her thoughts of superior skills in Tar in relation to Lanfear as correct. Again the BWB is meant to flesh out our understanding. Are their mistakes made by the author? Sure, but this is a pretty straight forward statement backing up the only thing we have to go off in the books. I can see why you may be skeptical, just saying it's more than enough for me as I don't believe the BWB is attempting to mislead us on this topic.

 

I don't know whether there is any deception going on or not. I'm just saying that we haven't seen anything - anywhere - yet that demonstrates which, if either, of the ladies is correct.

 

All we have is claims ( really nothing more than rumors ). Lanfear says she's queen bee. Moghedien says she is. The BWB offers nothing verifiable.

 

Rumor repeated is not truth. Truth requires proof - an experiment that produces a repeatable result. We have no such proof - so far. The only thing that both the words and the actions of the ladies involved proves is that they don't like each other one little bit.

 

Surely a third party verification relating to Moggy's claims is a check in favor of her being right. You can't just rule it out completely with a blanket statement that since not everything is 100% correct in in the BWB(IIRC I've yet to see any glaring errors) then the claims it makes about Mogggy being superior are not true as well. In addition the BWB has long been an excepted source on these boards, it's not as if it's WoT wiki or summat.

 

Accepted when what it claims can be backed up by events in the books. If the BWB tells us something that one or more of the books has shown us to be true then we can accept the BWB as correct.

 

What we have here is the BWB repeating a claim about what one of the characters believes. Moggy believes a great number of things that are not true, such as any of the Dark One's promises. Such as herself someday becoming Nae'blis. Such as herself being the last and only survivor of those pledged to Shaitan. etc., etc., ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

 

All that demonstrates is that Moghedien can rationalize anything. Not that any of her rationalizations or beliefs are true.

[Suttree]

We've yet to see Lanfear challenged on her own ground, so who knows how capable she really is.

 

The BWB apparently?

 

As it backs up Moggy's claim that is a check in favor of interpreting her thoughts of superior skills in Tar in relation to Lanfear as correct. Again the BWB is meant to flesh out our understanding. Are their mistakes made by the author? Sure, but this is a pretty straight forward statement backing up the only thing we have to go off in the books. I can see why you may be skeptical, just saying it's more than enough for me as I don't believe the BWB is attempting to mislead us on this topic.

 

I don't know whether there is any deception going on or not. I'm just saying that we haven't seen anything - anywhere - yet that demonstrates which, if either, of the ladies is correct.

 

All we have is claims ( really nothing more than rumors ). Lanfear says she's queen bee. Moghedien says she is. The BWB offers nothing verifiable.

 

Rumor repeated is not truth. Truth requires proof - an experiment that produces a repeatable result. We have no such proof - so far. The only thing that both the words and the actions of the ladies involved proves is that they don't like each other one little bit.

 

Surely a third party verification relating to Moggy's claims is a check in favor of her being right. You can't just rule it out completely with a blanket statement that since not everything is 100% correct in in the BWB(IIRC I've yet to see any glaring errors) then the claims it makes about Mogggy being superior are not true as well. In addition the BWB has long been an excepted source on these boards, it's not as if it's WoT wiki or summat.

 

Accepted when what it claims can be backed up by events in the books. If the BWB tells us something that one or more of the books has shown us to be true then we can accept the BWB as correct.

 

What we have here is the BWB repeating a claim about what one of the characters believes. Moggy believes a great number of things that are not true, such as any of the Dark One's promises. Such as herself someday becoming Nae'blis. Such as herself being the last and only survivor of those pledged to Shaitan. etc., etc., ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

 

All that demonstrates is that Moghedien can rationalize anything. Not that any of her rationalizations or beliefs are true.

 

While you may have a point if the BWB was actually some random scholar repeating a claim possibly attributed to Moggy we know this is not the case. Through the author who wrote BWB, RJ is supplementing from his notes what Moggy claims concerning her and Lanfear's relative skills. Why would they do this except to point who is correct and further flesh out the extent of Lanfear's ego?

 

Either way don't think either of us are going to change our mind. No biggie...

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

While you may have a point if the BWB was actually some random scholar repeating a claim possibly attributed to Moggy we know this is not the case. Through the author who wrote BWB, RJ is supplementing from his notes what Moggy claims concerning her and Lanfear's relative skills. Why would they do this except to point who is correct and further flesh out the extent of Lanfear's ego?

 

Either way don't think either of us are going to change our mind. No biggie...

 

Nah. You've demonstrated that you're a reasonable person, and I sure hope I am. All I'll say further is to read the last sentence of my sig.

 

Which for some reason now is not printing... hmmmm, was a couple days ago... must investimigate. Ahhh, there it is afterall.

[Dollhouse]

As far as redemption goes in a world where people reincarnate?

 

Lets think about this for a bit. What is it that makes a person accountable for their actions? The part about the Chosen still being guilty of the crimes they commited in the AOL always irritated me. I mean they are still associating/serving the Great Lord which I guess is a big minus and anything they do after they were released in the third age would of course be a crime of that era. But what about he stature of limitation? If they killed a person a 1000 years ago can they really be held accountable for that by people living in the third age? That just seems wrong.

 

But there is more; what about that whole reincarnatin business?

 

We know that several of the Chosen have been reincarnated. Their mind actually adapt somewhat to the new bodies so even though they still have the memories of the old Chosen, they can be said to be new people. Can you really hold these new people accountable for whatever crimes the old ones did?

 

If you do, then what about souls that are reincarnated normally and don't retain any memories? How many darkfreinds/chosen have been reincarnated over the repeat spinning of the wheel? Just to use an example -- How many times has Nyanave been a Chosen/darkfriend? ect ect ect

 

But Nyanave doens't remember anything like that... but what if she starts to remember? Should Nyanave be held accountable for what she did in a previous life? If she regains that lifes memories and personality?

 

LIkewise if it memories we are talking about, if one of the reincarnated Chosen lost their memories would that pardon them? Then all of a sudden they remembered again and the punishment was decided to be carried out anyway?

 

We actually have a somewhat simmilar situation actually happening in the books. Meeana has basically been reduced to that of a mentally challenged child in her mind. Should the White Tower Aes Sedai judge and punish/execute this sort of person?

 

---

 

Which brings me Mierin/Cyndane.

 

While Cyndane is Mierin's reincarnation she certainly isn't Lanfear. She might have Lanfear's anger, jealousy and even love for LTT -- yes even her memory and most of her personality... but Cyndane's mind was shaped by her body so she isn't truly the original person she was.

 

As such I think we can only hold her responsible for the things she has done since being reincarnated, and all those things have been done under the threat of having her "soul crushed" by Moridin.

 

Going by this definition, even if she isn't allowed to be redeemed in the books, I feel that she was somewhat purified when she was reborn.

 

But yeah, her name "last chance" kind of screams that this is her final/last chance to save herself.

[RandA lThor]

I think that Lanfear cannot turn at all, she has already had her little bit in the book where she helped Rand and that is the only good thing she has ever done. Now, I don't think she is going to do anything good, even if she is bound. That actually makes it more likely that she will not turn unless Elan/ Moridin does.

Moridin is actually the only person I think has a chance of turning. If Rand, can prove that there is an alternative to going with the DO and still getting to live with the Wheel of Time, forever, than he might turn, because all he believes in is logic.

Graendal has no chance of turning at al. She is so despicable that the only reason you would see her turn is to backstab the people for the Light. She wouldn't even do it to get away from Shaidar Haran.

I for one actually support Moghedien turning because it would be a nice twist after all she has done, and she is really miserable right now.

[DaoineSidhe]

There are good reasons for either of them turning:

 

Lanfear: She was present when the Bore was drilled, and as such, could probably have deep insight on how to reseal it, probably better than LTT/Rand Sedai. I'm not so sure from a character point of view, but plot-wise, it fits very nicely.

 

Moridin: I think if Rand were able to somehow break the circular nature of time during the Last Battle, then Moridin would defect to the Light side. What he truly wants is an end to his fight, and end to his never changing fate. If time were to become linear, but the DO still defeated, then Moridin's main purpose will be solved.

 

So, I really think which of them are redeemed depends on how the story ends. If the circular nature of time is going to continue, then re-sealing the bore is paramount, and so I think Lanfear with redeem herself. If time is going to become linear, then Moridin will, because we've been told very intimately what his reasons for supporting the Shadow are, and a linear timeline would do this for him as well.

[Tyzack]

Moridin is actually the only person I think has a chance of turning. If Rand, can prove that there is an alternative to going with the DO and still getting to live with the Wheel of Time, forever, than he might turn, because all he believes in is logic.

 

There are good reasons for either of them turning:

 

Moridin: I think if Rand were able to somehow break the circular nature of time during the Last Battle, then Moridin would defect to the Light side. What he truly wants is an end to his fight, and end to his never changing fate. If time were to become linear, but the DO still defeated, then Moridin's main purpose will be solved.

 

If the circular nature of time is going to continue, then re-sealing the bore is paramount, and so I think Lanfear with redeem herself. If time is going to become linear, then Moridin will, because we've been told very intimately what his reasons for supporting the Shadow are, and a linear timeline would do this for him as well.

 

From what I understand Elan Morin Tedronai joined the Shadow not because of jealousy/want of power/etc but because he saw the circular wheel of time as utterly pointless, and therefore the only way to end the endless "suffering" of being bound to the Wheel was to destroy it. This is the exact same mental state Dark Rand came to on the top of Dragonmount moments before his epiphany.

 

If Rand can persuade Moridin of his epiphany (possibily with the aid of the link) then Moridin might come to the same conclusion - it is not endless suffering, but rather endless opertuntiy, and that would turn him back to the Light.

 

I don't see any of the other foresaken being convinced that their reasons for joinging the Shadow can be reversed.

[Halleck]

I thought of something relating to this that I haven't read about anywhere here on this forums: what effect did drilling the Bore have on Mierin?

 

She was the first person in at least two ages to have any sort of contact with the Dark One and she pretty much shoved the OP straight down his throat. I can't believe that she got away from this encounter completely unscathed so I am wondering how this might have changed her personality. We all know that she ambitious and greedy prior to this but is it really plausible to think that someone is so ambitious they want to ENSLAVE THE ENTIRE WORLD simply because they were rejected by their lover and didn't achieve their third name?

 

I have a feeling that Maria's "ripe for the plucking" statement meant that Mierin was a flawed person and coming into direct contact with the DO intensified all of her negative feelings and suppressed the positive ones much like being 13x13 does. So she was not directly turned to the shadow by the DO, she was turned because of her own actions and flaws. If this is revealed to be the truth then this is a way for Lanfear to now return to the light with the excuse that none of her evil actions were actually her fault.

 

Remember the black chords that connected Ishmael and later Asmodean to the DO? They were left behind in the later books for one reason in another, probably because Rand became more intent on killing the Forsaken than turning them to the light. But now that he sees Lanfear trapped and begging for help maybe he will remember them and devise a way to remove the DO's influence over her. And if her personality was changed by directly touching the DO when she drilled the Bore maybe this will change her back to a flawed but essentially good person?

 

As for the Cour'souva...I don't know much about it but if it can be taken away from Ishmael then she will be safe. I can see Ishmael attempting to lay a trap in which he places the Cour'souva in some safe location and tells Rand to come get it if he wants to save Lanfear. The trap fails, Rand gets the Cour'souva, removes the black chords from Lanfear, and gives her the Cour'souva. So then she is free and she can tell him how to seal the Bore or at least give him some information that helps him figure out how to do it.

 

I apologize for the long post lol. I know it has a lot of flaws too but I came up this entire theory when I thought about Mierin creating the Bore. It seemed to me that the DO had to influence her in some way so I decided to annoy all of you with my thoughts.

[Suttree]

I thought of something relating to this that I haven't read about anywhere here on this forums: what effect did drilling the Bore have on Mierin?

 

RJ made that statement, not Maria. It shoots down the theory and makes it quite clear that the effects of drilling the bore didn't play a role. She was a greedy, power hungry individual. Those flaws in a society that valued public service held her back from gaining a third name and world wide renown. As a result she hungered more and wanted to rule(not enslave) the entire world. It is pretty obvious what the intent of RJ's quote was.

 

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore—I have heard the theory advanced—of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

[Solmyr]

My money's definitely on Elan.

 

Got nothing against ol' Mierin, I just think she has another role to play. Furthermore, her redemption, if it occurs, will feel kinda hollow - if she does turn against the DO she'll do it because there's no other choice. She's being tortured, crushed, she has lost everything including her body, she's about to lose her very soul. It's not much of a choice to change camps at this point.

 

Now look at Elan. He's not evil, per say, he just believes the Shadow will eventually win and he prefers to side with the winners and rule for a time (his exact words). Lately, he's been feeling so very tired, the conflict has scarred him as well, he is now linked to Rand and feels Rand's exhaustion. He desperately wants the cycle to end - at this point I don't think he really cares how the cycle ends. As long as it's not another reset.

 

Rand also wants the cycle to end for good. So does the DO, naturally. But it's safe to assume that AMoL will not end with the DO destroying the pattern and everything, so the only way for the cycle to end is Rand's way - kill the DO.

 

It is important to know that killing the DO might not be the only way to end the cycle, it's merely the only way Rand considers. But now with Zen Rand around fresh ideas may come up in AMoL. Elan himself, having studied the cycle for so long, may provide clues. Finally there's Fain - a volatile addition to the already-unstable concoction that is brewing up near Shayol Ghul. I say there's a good chance for the cycle ending with the good guys winning.

 

And in such a case there's no reason for Elan not to come on board and help secure this victory. He may even die in the process, maybe he'll even strive for it.

[True Source Creator]

I don't think any of the Forsaken will turn back to the Light, but I hope at least one will. Four possibilities:

 

1) Moridin - but not likely. His link with Rand may have some effect, but he seems bent to want an end to everything. Maybe Rand could influence his opinion, though, but I doubt it. Moridin seems to be the main bad guy Forsaken at this point, and I don't see that changing.

 

2) Graendal - again not likely. There's not really any reason for this character to do so. The only reason she may wish to is because she will likely be in a state of torture now, but that should be more damaging on the next two candidates.

 

3) Moghedian - possible, but probably not. However, of the four she is the one who has the most experience being in the Light for a time after being Forsaken, as during her captivity she did have to act like she was good. Plus being bound so long in the mindtrap must surely make her regret things of the Shadow, and she is bound to envy freedom now. She's a possible, but not likely, candidate, because I think more so that it could be

 

4) Lanfear/Cyndane - would love for this to happen. She's always been my favorite of the Forsaken, and I just want to see her actually be more than a totally dark character. If she returns to the Light, it could be with knowledge of how to seal the Bore. Maybe she sacrifices herself in the process (which would be awesome). She has motivation: coming from a position of upmost power to one of rape and torture. She always claims to love LTT and has aided Rand many times in the past. Additionally, there's a significant sign that she may actually really have loved LTT, not just as a means to raise her status and power, but actually as a person, though hidden by her pursuit of power, which makes it flawed. I'm talking about when Lanfear is in jealous mode at the docks of Cairhien. There's one amazing line where Rand tells her he would never love a Forsaken, and we see anguish cross her face. And then she decides to kill him if he won't love her. I really think that hurt her, and I hope it was because of some longing to be emotionally connected to him.

[Wolf505]

It's entirely possible Demandred could turn his coat again. He turned in the first place because he was always second best to Lews Therin. Now he's second best to Moridin/Ishy. I'm not saying he would be redeemed, just switched sides for once again being forced into a secondary role when he clearly feels he should have been the one chosen as Nae'blis.

[MasterAblar]

It's entirely possible Demandred could turn his coat again. He turned in the first place because he was always second best to Lews Therin. Now he's second best to Moridin/Ishy. I'm not saying he would be redeemed, just switched sides for once again being forced into a secondary role when he clearly feels he should have been the one chosen as Nae'blis.

 

Demandred really doesn't care all that much about Moridin. I think someone asked Brandon how often Demandred considered killing Moridin. Brandon answered that while he did consider it at times, the one he really wants is Rand. The difference between Moridin and LTT, is that LTT was better than Demandred by half a shade in absolutely everything.

[TheAngryDruid]

I don't think the choices are just Elan and Mierin, though they make the most sense in terms of connections to Rand and the story. I've been a proponent of "A Memory of Light" being more than just the title to the last book, but an impactful turn of the plot, based on a Fosaken's memory of being a Lightfriend. I referent ToM Ch 5 in Graendal's POV where she talks about her (and Moridin's) taking their first steps to the Shadow, remembering what is was like. I think this chapter sets the parameters for the candidates, as Graendal differentiates between Forsaken who were rotten from the start (Semirhage) to those who fought for the Light and then turned (herself, Moridin).

 

Also, I think that the "Memory of LIght" that influences the outcome may not be a Forsaken becoming all-goody goody, but maybe just betraying the Shadow for personal gain. For Ishy/Moridin, to achieve the final death; for the others, to avoid it if they discover his true game (or Rand can convince them of his true game).

 

Anyway, here's my take on each:

 

1) Elan Morin Tedronai. Ishamael/Moridin. The nihilist. Just wants it to end. Per the BWB and Graendal's POV, we know he wasn't always evil, though the BWB says he was one of the firsts, if not the first, to go over. Agree that if he is presented with a way that it can all end, he may indeed take it. He's more concerned with making an end, and believes the Shadow's victory is the only way to make that happen. The Shadow's victory isn't something to be relished, but only as a means to his desired end. He's the only one who knows the DO's true game, but he just doesn't care, as that suits him just fine, as he cares for nothing beyond making his own end. He is narcissistic in the extreme in this way, rather than power or everlasting life he desires the complete opposite; everlasting death.

 

The idea of someone not being able to walk in darkness so long that they can't come back isn't the only notion brought up so often it needs to happen in the final book (13x13, etc), but I also think we've seen so many instances of the Shadow trying to turn the Light's champion, that the Light turning the Shadow's champion would certainly be an interesting twist.

 

Everyone else joined the Shadow for vainity, power, everlasting life, etc. If ANY of the remaining Forsaken got wind of the DO's true game, I think any (or all) would be willing to jump ship. As Asmodean proved, a couple of hundred years of life followed by certain death is better than an immediate certain death in the complete destruction that would follow a DO victory.

 

2. Mierin Eronaile. Lanfear/Cyndane. We know that she wasn't always evil as well: BWB, Aiel history, Rand's own memories. She went over late, apparently. Like the others, if she knew what Moridin's knows (or thinks he knows) about the DO's plans, she could go over. She's the only Forsaken we know of who has voiced a willingness to challenge the DO before. And we know she is suffering immensely at the DO's hands right now. Though it is likely she is setting the trap for Rand, could her emotions get the best of her if faced with LTT fully intact? Or if he freed her from the mindtrap?

 

3. Kamarile Maradim Nindar. Graendal. We know she meets her own test for not having always been rotten, but she was one of the first to go over (after Ishy and possibly Semirhage and Aginor).She knows she is in hot water (having killed 2 Chosen already) and indirectly cost them Mesaan while bungling trying to kill Perrin. There is no chance she'll be Nae'blis now, and she has to know it. Is there even a chance she won't be killed? Maybe she'll be misused to such a degree she might be willing to go over. Hell hath no fury....could apply to her as well as Mierin. And if she learns she's just as dead with a DO victory....

 

4. Barid Bel Medar. Demandred. We know he wasn't always rotten, and that he went over for envying/hating LTT. Like the others, if he knew what the DO's victory meant, he might well go over, especially if HE was the one responsible for the victory, NOT LTT. Seems unlikely he'd turn unless he could also get the credit. And seems unlikely anyway.

 

5. Lillen Moiral. Moghedien. Also has suffered at the DO's hand. And Moridin's. Went over early, and we don't know if she meets Graendal's "A Memory of Light" test, but she seems to. Like Lanfear and Graendal, has suffered at SH's hand after a failure. But who knows what she'd do if freed from her Mindtrap. Or if someone could get her free of it? We know she thinks that she'll never feel fear again after the Cleansing. Could she go from Spider to Bold?

============

 

If I had to pick, my money would be on Moridin, but I want it to be Lanfear.

[randomh3r0]

I'd agree in principle to the Forsaken mentioned by TheAngryDruid except Moggy. It's no secret that she delights in the evil she does to people, the amount of cumpulsion she's capable of, and in general just being "The Spider". For any Forsaken to turn over, they'd pretty much have the impact of instantly being a champion of the light (possible motivation for Demandred). I could definitely agree with the notions of Moridin, Cyndane and Graendal. If we get a Aran'gar version of Sammael in the LB, perhaps even him, but i can't see it for any other remaining.

[OptimusPrime]

I'll be so cheesed off if Moridin turns, it would ruin everything in my oppinion. Hes too cool as the main villain, he seems way too deep in his own darkness to naturally contemplate turning back, and if he does it would likely have something to do with his link to Rand ie personality transferal, and even then it would in my oppinion cheapen the act.

 

I would pay good money to have Moridin stay evil. I dont care who turns back as long as it isnt him.

[Luckers]

I'll be so cheesed off if Moridin turns, it would ruin everything in my oppinion. Hes too cool as the main villain, he seems way too deep in his own darkness to naturally contemplate turning back, and if he does it would likely have something to do with his link to Rand ie personality transferal, and even then it would in my oppinion cheapen the act.

 

I would pay good money to have Moridin stay evil. I dont care who turns back as long as it isnt him.

 

I'd like Moridin to survive TG and get a POV from him ten years down the line, bitter, hunted, so on...

[Zorlon]

Edit: Sorry, didn't notice I was replying to a post from October

[BNICK1026]

I could see it being Moridin. If he were to believe that not just sealing the bore but recreating it in a more constructed way would stop the cyclical nature of the DO, I could see him making a 'sacrifice' of himself to help. He is going to be aware that he would never be accepted and most likely still killed due to his past transgressions as a Forsaken. I thought it had been stated in the books that during the many spinnings of the wheel that the Dragon and some of the forsaken have faught side by side on both sides of the battle. Why would it not make some sense that Moridin have a last minute logic change if he sees that Rands new plan would actually be successful in shutting the DO away for an extended period. Maybe not indefinite but slowing the 7 age cycle. Maybe that would put Moridin at peace. His doing so could also kill both Cyndane and Mohegain (sp) by crushing their Mindtraps and eliminate 2 enemies.

 

Or perhaps Fain's pressance could swing the entire battle idea. Since his power is growing so rapidly, perhaps, the forsaken get prepared to do battle only to realize the majority of their shadowspawn trollocs and fades are not theirs to control and Fain turns them against Shayol Ghul. Fain could do it to meet to ends. 1.) to avenge his treatment by the DO, and 2.) ensure he is the one that gets to kill Rand.

 

Possibly even leading to Moridin seeing Fain in direct control of so many shadowspawn that he believes the DO is toying with him and Fain is actually causing massive damage to the dark by taking so many of their own as his puppets? Giving Moridin reason to believe the struggle on the Dark is actually more futile in this age.

[thisguy]

In the second book, Ishmael comes to Rand while he's on watch in the mirror world. He says sometimes when two people battle for so long they become allies of a sort... I can definitely see him either switching sides or helping Rand do away with a common enemy like Padan Fain.

[tje]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but as far as Lanfear changing. Do you think the mindtrap would play into it at all?

[BNICK1026]

Along the lines of the Body Swap theory. What if Rand and Moridin swap bodies or atleast Rand ends up in Moridins body. Rand would then have both Cyndane and Moggys' mindtraps. wouldn't he then be able to force/guide then to do his bidding for the light? Or atleast barter with them so they are set to task and on completion they can be 'freed' of the mindtrap.