The Seals

[Sharaman]

The Bore existed for a hundred years before LTT & co. sealed it.

The GLOD has apparently beavered away for 3,000 years and managed to recently bust 4 of the Seals.

His minions have chased around looking for them - Domon, Bashere, etc.

 

Now Rand wants to bust the three remaining ones.

Egwene & others consider this to be nuts.

Importantly Rand has also stated his intention in public several times - the chances are quite high that the GLoD and His minions know about Rand's intention.

 

The question is: Does the GLoD want the 3 remaining Seals broken?

If so, why wouldn't He sit back and just wait for Rand to do this?

 

One counter-factual is Taim's apparent horror when Rand tries to smash the Seal in LoC.

However, it could be that Taim wasn't a DF at that moment and become a DF only later.

Or, it could be that the Seal in question is not genuine, despite LTT's apparent recognition.

In that case, Rand is short one Seal and doesn't know it.

 

Another possible argument is that the GLoD's power doesn't instantly go off the scale when the Bore is unSealed.

After all, He was unSealed for a century and still unable to prevent LTT's superglue act.

 

So is the GLoD aware that the methods of getting rid of him more permanently involve UnSealing?

He should be - if He remembers Ages when the Bore was "healed" and He was walled off outside the Pattern and He thinks Rand may have figured it out.

 

My best guess is that the GLoD wanted to Break all the Seals but to do it gradually without immediate confrontation so that He could gather His power, enlarge the Bore and Touch the world more corporeally, or whatever.

 

Thoughts ?

[Dewairah]

Domon and Bashere are darkfriends?

[SylvanFox]

^^^ Domon and Bashere had discs and were pursued by DFs for them.

 

I think that might be the deal with the discs. A half-sealed bore doesn't do much of anything. But if the Shadow goes ahead and gets rid of everyone who has any chance of plugging the hole before busting it open again.

[LazyMonk]

The question is: Does the GLoD want the 3 remaining Seals broken?

If so, why wouldn't He sit back and just wait for Rand to do this?

It's all in the timing.

the DO wants the bore open last year, hence the treasure hunt.

Rand has no intention to simply break the seals then laze about. He'll time it very carefully, to the minimum possible delay between the breaking of the seals and the re-sealing attempt.

[FarShainMael]

according to Elayne, 'there are only three seals left, and they're crumbling' (ToM14). Is she right? What if they are already broken?

[JKN-SW]

The only thing I could really think of is that I have not seen anyone else (except darkfriends in the books) call the Dark One, the Great Lord of the Dark. Is there a history behind that?

[Lacanos]

^^^ Domon and Bashere had discs and were pursued by DFs for them.

 

I think that might be the deal with the discs. A half-sealed bore doesn't do much of anything. But if the Shadow goes ahead and gets rid of everyone who has any chance of plugging the hole before busting it open again.

Pretty sure you're talking about Lord Dobraine here...

[rand4747]

Well even while the darkone was sealed the bore was growing. Once it was big enough (like during the wheel of time timeline) he was strong enough to attack the seals directly. So hes had over 3000 years to widen the bore.

[Xcorpyo001]

Well even while the darkone was sealed the bore was growing. Once it was big enough (like during the wheel of time timeline) he was strong enough to attack the seals directly. So hes had over 3000 years to widen the bore.

 

 

I think that the seals act like some sort of Stasis Box. It will not expand until the last seal is broken.

But with every broken seal it recovers some of it's strength.

The women from AoL considered using a shield around it, but that plan was discarded because, unlike the sealing, the shield will not stop the Bore from expanding, and in time it would have been to strong and the shield would have been destroyed.

[randsc]

FSM is right. The seals are broken. And the focus points may well be, also. Don't forget that the physical disks are NOT the seals.

[JeffWeissberg]

How does it all fit into Herid Fel's death? Is it generally accepted that Fel figured out that the seals needed to be broken? If so, why was he murdered if not to protect the seals? I guess it was just enough that he figured it out and was killed to keep any vital data from Rand...

 

I would also think that Taim was a DF at least by the time he arrived in Caemlyn. Wouldn't it have been BA/DFs that freed him? Definitely by Dumai's Wells considering he was enthusiastically encouraging Rand to take along one of his DF cronies. (aCoS 2)

 

I would think that the DO wants the seals to break on his terms (agree with LazyMonk)

[Hybrid]

Is it generally accepted that Fel figured out that the seals needed to be broken?

 

Yes, hence his comment about clearing away the rubble before rebuilding.

 

If so, why was he murdered if not to protect the seals? I guess it was just enough that he figured it out and was killed to keep any vital data from Rand...

 

Shai'tan, or whoever ordered the attack, may not have been aware of the full extent of Fel's knowledge. The fact that he was researching the topic may have been enough.

[MasterAblar]

Is it generally accepted that Fel figured out that the seals needed to be broken?

 

Yes, hence his comment about clearing away the rubble before rebuilding.

 

If so, why was he murdered if not to protect the seals? I guess it was just enough that he figured it out and was killed to keep any vital data from Rand...

 

Shai'tan, or whoever ordered the attack, may not have been aware of the full extent of Fel's knowledge. The fact that he was researching the topic may have been enough.

 

Or it might have been a bluff. If the DO actually wants the seals broken, then killing Fel makes it look he was on to something with the whole "clearing the rubble" thing. I honeslty don't think so because the shadow, if this was their plan, should have let Fel become even more convinced that the seals had to be broken before killing him. As it is, Min had to figure it out anyway.

 

Of course I'm pretty sure the DO wants the seals broken anyway, just when HE wants it, not when Rand wants it.

[Suttree]

Well even while the darkone was sealed the bore was growing. Once it was big enough (like during the wheel of time timeline) he was strong enough to attack the seals directly. So hes had over 3000 years to widen the bore.

 

 

I think that the seals act like some sort of Stasis Box. It will not expand until the last seal is broken.

But with every broken seal it recovers some of it's strength.

The women from AoL considered using a shield around it, but that plan was discarded because, unlike the sealing, the shield will not stop the Bore from expanding, and in time it would have been to strong and the shield would have been destroyed.

 

The Female AS plan was discarded only after the access keys were lost, it had nothing to do with the reason you give above. The bore would have continued to expand but the plan was not to just leave it that way...

 

that used together they would provide sufficient Power to drive the Shadow's forces back, to defeat them completely and erect a barrier around Shayol Ghul until a safe method of dealing with the Bore was assured.

 

In fact LTT only began pushing one again for his plan once the keys were lost and it was the only hope.

[nolirion]

Now that the first plan of the DO as failed (Hurting Rand to the point where he go's insane an destroy the pattern) he don't want The dragon Reborn to surprise him further .

He main objective is to defeat Rand , taking away the seal was a way to dictate is term on Rand . Legions of Trolloc attacking the world with forsaken and dreadlord at their command , with no seal to break Rand could not reseal the bore or in an imperfect way just like in the war of the shadow .

As Ishamael said in the prologue of the Great Hunt Vol 2

A startled Murmur ran through his listeners?

"The Dragon Reborn! We are to kill him , Great Lord?"

That From the Sienaran, hand grasping eagerly at his side where his sword would hang.

"Perhaps,"Ba'alzamon said simply."AND perhaps not . Perhaps he can be turned to my use.Sooner or later it willl be so , in this Age or another."

The Do see thing in the long run is war again the dragon is waged since countless age , is defeat at the hand of Rand in this age is for him a setback .Witch mean he as been defeated virtually an infinity of times.

Taking away the seal from Rand make is plan much more easier to unravel .

Making Rand force's on the defensive side give way for The Do force's.

[Turin Turambar]

Is it generally accepted that Fel figured out that the seals needed to be broken?

 

Yes, hence his comment about clearing away the rubble before rebuilding.

 

If so, why was he murdered if not to protect the seals? I guess it was just enough that he figured it out and was killed to keep any vital data from Rand...

 

Shai'tan, or whoever ordered the attack, may not have been aware of the full extent of Fel's knowledge. The fact that he was researching the topic may have been enough.

I thought he was killed because he was really smart and on the track to possibly figuring out how to effectively seal the Bore itself. The breaking of the seals is just like step 4 of 9 in the close the bore procedure.

[Kahsm]

according to Elayne, 'there are only three seals left, and they're crumbling' (ToM14). Is she right? What if they are already broken?

FSM is right. The seals are broken. And the focus points may well be, also. Don't forget that the physical disks are NOT the seals.

Given they are all in Rand's care, or the care of people Rand trusts, I would assume they are quite fine. I mean how ridiculous would Rand look running around saying he's going to break them if they're already broken? You'd think that'd be worth keeping an eye on...

 

Given the strength of heartstone it's fairly obvious the state of the focal points represents the state of the seals. I mean the first one didn't fall down and shatter while sitting in the HoV chest at the bottom of the EotW. It came out like that. Also, Lan broke a dagger on one of the pieces despite it being broken. Later on, they could scratch one.

 

At least one seal is broken from the very start of the series, but we know some (if not all) the forsaken are still imprisoned, so obviously it's not an "all or nothing" thing.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Long while back I went on a schpeel about how the Seals themselves aren't being broken, or are being broken down as a result of the Dark One's efforts.

 

Rather I thought it was kind of obvious that every time we see a Seal broken, something momentous has occurred, fulfilling some prophetic event involved directly with what Rand, specifically has done/is doing.

 

At some point some poster related that it sounded kind of like a labors of Hercules sort of parallel...complete a task/fulfill part of the cyclic prophesies, and we see a Seal broken, and the DO's one step closer to being free. At the same time, because there is that correlation between what Rand does, the fulfilling of prophetic events specifically to his role, and Seals revealed to have broken as a result, those Seals also serve as indication that the Dragon is in play, and the stage is being set for TG.

 

I stand by the thought that the Dark One isn't the one responsible for the Seals breaking. It's the result of prophetic & destined events being fulfilled on the part of the Dragon, causing the Seals to break, so that he may do is cosmic role of facing the DO, blood on the rocks, so on and so forth.

 

The whole statement that Rand would meet everybody and their mother at FoM, where he's going to break the remaining Seals, totally corroborated the aforementioned concept for me.

 

The Seals will be broken. It'll be the direct result of some kind of fulfillment on Rands part, not because it's the Dark One that's somehow managed to whittle things down over so many thousands of years, and then the Seals just conveniently happen to break precisely when the Dragon takes another proverbial step towards the final battle.

 

___

 

It all had to do with my reaction towards some idea where Randland was in trouble, because what if the Shadow obtained all of the Seal disks, because they could break them and set the DO free...

 

My take was that's a load of bull, because they only break, or are shown to be breaking down, as a result of the things that Rand has done on the road of destiny - We see a Seal being scratched/flaked off with a knife, granted - this happens during the events encompassing Rand leading the Aiel across the DW, and into Cairhein, and we see the same Seal broken in full, paralleling the events of the Battle of Cairhein - when the Aiel wash the spears in blood once more, something like that.

 

The point being that even if the Shadow had all of the disks, at Shadow HQ or wherever, from what we see in the books, those disks aren't going to break by any action they themselves can take towards them. You may want to say ah ha, I bet the TP could do it...but we've never seen that, so that's moot.

 

 

SO, even if the disks themselves were scattered on the other side of the world, buried, sunk, wherever what have you - they won't break, and can't be broken, unless it's Rand that's doing the deed on the metaphysical/cosmic/prophetic/destined level to have the resulting damaged disk, as a result

[Lacanos]

Long while back I went on a schpeel about how the Seals themselves aren't being broken, or are being broken down as a result of the Dark One's efforts.

 

Rather I thought it was kind of obvious that every time we see a Seal broken, something momentous has occurred, fulfilling some prophetic event involved directly with what Rand, specifically has done/is doing.

 

At some point some poster related that it sounded kind of like a labors of Hercules sort of parallel...complete a task/fulfill part of the cyclic prophesies, and we see a Seal broken, and the DO's one step closer to being free. At the same time, because there is that correlation between what Rand does, the fulfilling of prophetic events specifically to his role, and Seals revealed to have broken as a result, those Seals also serve as indication that the Dragon is in play, and the stage is being set for TG.

 

I stand by the thought that the Dark One isn't the one responsible for the Seals breaking. It's the result of prophetic & destined events being fulfilled on the part of the Dragon, causing the Seals to break, so that he may do is cosmic role of facing the DO, blood on the rocks, so on and so forth.

 

The whole statement that Rand would meet everybody and their mother at FoM, where he's going to break the remaining Seals, totally corroborated the aforementioned concept for me.

 

The Seals will be broken. It'll be the direct result of some kind of fulfillment on Rands part, not because it's the Dark One that's somehow managed to whittle things down over so many thousands of years, and then the Seals just conveniently happen to break precisely when the Dragon takes another proverbial step towards the final battle.

 

___

 

It all had to do with my reaction towards some idea where Randland was in trouble, because what if the Shadow obtained all of the Seal disks, because they could break them and set the DO free...

 

My take was that's a load of bull, because they only break, or are shown to be breaking down, as a result of the things that Rand has done on the road of destiny - We see a Seal being scratched/flaked off with a knife, granted - this happens during the events encompassing Rand leading the Aiel across the DW, and into Cairhein, and we see the same Seal broken in full, paralleling the events of the Battle of Cairhein - when the Aiel wash the spears in blood once more, something like that.

 

The point being that even if the Shadow had all of the disks, at Shadow HQ or wherever, from what we see in the books, those disks aren't going to break by any action they themselves can take towards them. You may want to say ah ha, I bet the TP could do it...but we've never seen that, so that's moot.

 

 

SO, even if the disks themselves were scattered on the other side of the world, buried, sunk, wherever what have you - they won't break, and can't be broken, unless it's Rand that's doing the deed on the metaphysical/cosmic/prophetic/destined level to have the resulting damaged disk, as a result

 

 

So you're saying the battle of Cairhein was the reason Nynaeve's Seal broke? Not the touch of the Dark One she sensed on it (and as we know, Nynaeve has a special sense for such things).

Plus, there's no evidence that there's a "prophetic power!" linked to the seals that would cause them to break in such a way. That's just not credible, very deus ex machina to introduce a random magical mystical unknown force for plot convenience, when the DO's influence would be a perfectly acceptable piece of plotting.

[SylvanFox]

^^^ Domon and Bashere had discs and were pursued by DFs for them.

 

I think that might be the deal with the discs. A half-sealed bore doesn't do much of anything. But if the Shadow goes ahead and gets rid of everyone who has any chance of plugging the hole before busting it open again.

Pretty sure you're talking about Lord Dobraine here...

 

Domon had a seal. It was on his boat and he gave it to... somebody. The Seanchan wanted it. Did Dobraine have one? I can't remember much of what he did... he's barely popped up so far in my re-read.

[Hadilmir]

So you're saying the battle of Cairhein was the reason Nynaeve's Seal broke? Not the touch of the Dark One she sensed on it (and as we know, Nynaeve has a special sense for such things).

Plus, there's no evidence that there's a "prophetic power!" linked to the seals that would cause them to break in such a way. That's just not credible, very deus ex machina to introduce a random magical mystical unknown force for plot convenience, when the DO's influence would be a perfectly acceptable piece of plotting.

 

We know for a fact the Wheel allows for 'Pattern-level events'. This isn't some last minute plot addition. Think of the stress on the Pattern caused by focus points of prophecy, the Pattern has to force itself into a manner which fulfills prophecy. Think of the pulling Rand felt at Falme, that was the Pattern being shaped to prophecy, so imagine the stress on the Seals during these events. After all, the metaphysical anchor points for the seven Seals just so happen to be the Pattern. That's not to say the Dark One isn't doing his fair share, but it seems odd to believe it would take 3000 years to break the first focus point and then months for the second. If the Seal is weakened so much by losing one focal point that another can be destroyed in a relatively insignificant amount of time, then why have the last 3 not been shattered just as well? (Though I'm pretty sure Rand will discover he only has 2 seals unbroken; surely the third has been destroyed by now)

 

Here's a thought, has anyone attempted to make a detailed link between the seven seals in Revelations leading to Armageddon and the seven seals in WoT leading to Tar'mon Gaidon?

[Mats Spare Hat]

You sense the Dark One's touch through a breaking down Seal, because the Seal is breaking down - not because the Dark One caused the Seal to become broken down in the first place.

 

Fill a water balloon with water. Poke a hole in it. You can feel the water coming out, but the water didn't cause the hole.

 

Nynaeve feels the DO's evil, precisely because the Seal is breaking down as a result of Rands actions, the fulfilling of specific prophesy:

 

"With his coming are the dread fires born again. The hills burn, and the land turns sere. The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle. The wall is pierced, and the veil of parting raised. Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth. There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death."

 

—fragment from The Prophecies of the Dragon

believed translated by N'Delia Basolaine

First Maid and Swordfast to Raidhen of Hol Cuchone

(circa 400 AB)"

 

 

Hills burn, Cairhein, Aiel, piercing spears, back through the Dragonwall...Events prophesied and displayed smack in the first pages, if not the very first page(!), of a book, tFoH, wherein the very events foretold occur, and then we're witness to one of the Seals breaking down, and then found to be broken, in the exact time-frame of said noted events happening.

 

It's not some "prophetic power" at work, there's no deus ex unknown force at work, as you put it Lacanos; We've seen it throughout the series: The Seals break when certain events happen, and Rand is at the heart of, and in fact is key to those events, which have been prophesized far before Rand's birth, and correlating exactly with significant events of which the Dragon Reborn is central.

[AquilaInfernus]

I like the idea that the seals break in parallel with Rand's prophetic actions.

 

Remember, the beliefs of the characters aren't necessarily truth. Moiraine once said no Aes Sedai living was strong enough for Travelling. Lo and behold she herself had the required strength (before the 'Finns held her).

 

The literal truth of the Dragon being one with the land and all that jazz is enough for such a connection to take place. Prophecy doesn't determine that it is possible, merely that a pre-existing possibility will happen. Perhaps it is the Ta'verenness of Rand, that he is so strongly forcing the pattern that the stress is breaking the seals.

 

It would be easy to determine; when are they broken, and are there correlations between breaks and Rand/Pattern-specific events. It is a sloppy process but the best we've got:

1. Rand consciously controls Saidin for the first time at the Eye of the World - thus avoiding the lethality of sparkers.

2. Did a seal break at Falme? I believe Turok had two in his possession (Domon's and his own)? The Pattern declares Rand as the Dragon Reborn

3. The fall of Tear and seizing of Callandor?

4. The Aiel crossing the Dragonwall and the liberation of Cairhein.

5. Cleansing Saidin

6. Veins of Gold

 

(I'm rusty on this topic, anyone that can provide better details knock yourselves out)

 

My question is why Jordan ignored the plot device of the White and Brown Ajahs and introduced Herid Fel to determine the metaphysical actions required.

[Dewairah]

 

My question is why Jordan ignored the plot device of the White and Brown Ajahs and introduced Herid Fel to determine the metaphysical actions required.

 

Its obvious. By being the Aes Sedai being diametrically opposed to Rand for most of the series and/or trying to outright control him - this prevented the white and brown ajah's beign able to come up with the solution. Rand hasnt had a relationship with the tower to be able to work with whites and browns towards a solution.

 

Therefore, the solution had to be written to come from somewhere else...e.g min and herid fel

 

This also goes to strengthen an underlying them (first explored by egwene and the wise ones) that the some of all knowledge and guidance isnt found in the tower alone.

 

Or thats how I understand it anyway :)

[FarShainMael]

You sense the Dark One's touch through a breaking down Seal, because the Seal is breaking down - not because the Dark One caused the Seal to become broken down in the first place.

 

Fill a water balloon with water. Poke a hole in it. You can feel the water coming out, but the water didn't cause the hole.

 

Water pressure can poke holes in dams, though.