Lan vs Mat

[Ananta]

Slightly OT, but I can't be the only one who's pissed off that Rand is some super-swordsman as well (even pre-LT memories). He should be very good, but not better than Galad or Gawyn, who've been training a long long time longer than him.

 

He could be good, sure, but that good? Unnecessary and probably the thing I dislike about Rand

I find Mat's case much more ridiculous. Apparently just training in his spare time in his village made him good enough to beat top class fighters who train all the time. And for the first two books, he never used a staff and was pretty useless in fighting apart from his bow, then suddenly it turned out he was a complete badass with the staff...give me a break. Not to mention that unlike Rand, we never ever see Mat train with his weapon.

 

I sort of thought that his memories gave him some mad weapon using skills, too.

 

But I can't remember if he was good with staff before he got the memories or not D:

[David Selig]

In TDR Mat beat two top class sword fighters at the same time (Gawyn and Galad) while still weak from his dagger illness, and then, he was killing people with ease on the way to Caemlyn and in the Stone of Tear, so he was really, really good. In fact he was way too good to be believable IMO, as I already said. How much time would've he had to train with the staff in Two Rivers? H

[Goldstar]

Between the Old Blood and the memories, you'd be surprised.

[MasterAblar]

In TDR Mat beat two top class sword fighters at the same time (Gawyn and Galad) while still weak from his dagger illness, and then, he was killing people with ease on the way to Caemlyn and in the Stone of Tear, so he was really, really good. In fact he was way too good to be believable IMO, as I already said. How much time would've he had to train with the staff in Two Rivers? H

 

I believe that in that scene Mat was surprised as well at his own ability.

[Inkin14]

anyone put a call in to ultimate warrior yet :) And Matt would win....best blade master that ever lived was beaten once by a farmer with a quarter staff...and Lans sword can't cut through Matts :)

[Kahsm]

I don't know if Lan would win. I'm sure Gawyn is stronger than Lan, because he defeated Sleet plus random Gaidin four times (or three, don't know), while Sleet alone beat Lan two of the seven times. I know, Gawyn wasn't that good when he fought Mat, but he was together with Galad, who was better at that point. And he hasn't had that much practice later one.

 

 

Sleet managed to win two of seven from Lan WHEN Lan used to actually duel with other Warders. That was a long time ago.

 

...and as Mark Grayson already mentioned, both RJ and BS have stated quite often, Lan > Rand with two hands > Galad > Gawyn.

 

 

As far as the question here....well, let's see...Mat beat both Galad and Gawyn together with only a quarterstaff and that was before he was given his memories by the Finns.

Memories that he states outright granted him the ability to use his Ashandarei as skillfully as he does.

 

Gotta go with Mat here but only by a 4-3 or 5-2 out of 7.

 

For the billionth time in threads like this. Those quotes are old, Gawyn was just recently bonded. I don't know if it takes a bit to get used to the new capabilities and limits, but Gawyn could very well be as good or better than Lan now. Quotes asside.

 

And even though I agree Mat's luck puts him above everyone, that duel in tGH means nothing. Hammar knew Mat would dominate them because they were underestimating a farmer with a qstaff. Nothing says (luck asside) they wouldn't have done better going again right after.

[Hadilmir]

Not to diminish Mat's talent, not in the least, but I still think Aan'allein is the closest to Death a human can get. It took him about 15 seconds to defeat Toram Riatin while receiving a wound minor enough to not hamper his ability to pull himself up out of a trapdoor. Remember, Toram was nearly as good as Rand was at his best, perhaps as good. There's also Lan's proficiency with any weapon, he knows how a quarterstaff, spear, maybe even naginata works. Mat is good, ridiculously good, but it's not enough to confront Al'Lan Mandragoran.

 

Lan is simply hyper-lethal. Done.

[Hotncold]

I gotta say Lan's the best swordmaster in the realm, but its not a sword fight. Mat' ashrandei is pretty lethal. Mat opened up a can of whoop a$$ all over Gawyn & Galad with just a quarterstaff, if the fight was for real and Mat's quarterstaff had a blade G&G Trakind would have been in multiple pieces. I think out of 7 fights Mat winds 5 out of 2. Unless Mat bet on the fight in which case he would win 100 out of 99.

[capuga]

I don't know if Lan would win. I'm sure Gawyn is stronger than Lan, because he defeated Sleet plus random Gaidin four times (or three, don't know), while Sleet alone beat Lan two of the seven times. I know, Gawyn wasn't that good when he fought Mat, but he was together with Galad, who was better at that point. And he hasn't had that much practice later one.

 

 

Sleet managed to win two of seven from Lan WHEN Lan used to actually duel with other Warders. That was a long time ago.

 

...and as Mark Grayson already mentioned, both RJ and BS have stated quite often, Lan > Rand with two hands > Galad > Gawyn.

 

 

As far as the question here....well, let's see...Mat beat both Galad and Gawyn together with only a quarterstaff and that was before he was given his memories by the Finns.

Memories that he states outright granted him the ability to use his Ashandarei as skillfully as he does.

 

Gotta go with Mat here but only by a 4-3 or 5-2 out of 7.

 

For the billionth time in threads like this. Those quotes are old, Gawyn was just recently bonded. I don't know if it takes a bit to get used to the new capabilities and limits, but Gawyn could very well be as good or better than Lan now. Quotes asside.

 

And even though I agree Mat's luck puts him above everyone, that duel in tGH means nothing. Hammar knew Mat would dominate them because they were underestimating a farmer with a qstaff. Nothing says (luck asside) they wouldn't have done better going again right after.

 

The quote from Brandon was after ToM and Gawyn's bonding. Lan is better, word of God leaves no debate.

 

And Mat could barely walk so put him at full strength and give him the memories and he still whoops even the current more experienced Gawyn and Galad.

[idiostock]

aMoL needs a Lan v. Gholam fights, because it would be awesome and would give a benchmark to the Lan/Mat skill levels, ie who wrecked the gholam harder.

[ironisles]

aMoL needs a Lan v. Gholam fights, because it would be awesome and would give a benchmark to the Lan/Mat skill levels, ie who wrecked the gholam harder.

 

A one on one fight with a gholam, Lan would die.

[Stitch]

A one on one fight with a gholam, Lan would die.

*nods* It wouldn't matter if Lan was 10x as good as Mat; he would still lose against a gholam without inflicting any damage because those medallions are the only things known that can cause a ghoman harm (well I think balefire would still work)

[Turin Turambar]

aMoL needs a Lan v. Gholam fights, because it would be awesome and would give a benchmark to the Lan/Mat skill levels, ie who wrecked the gholam harder.

 

A one on one fight with a gholam, Lan would die.

Agreed. Mat would have been killed eventually if not for the gateway to nowhere. Lan would have put up a good fight but without channeling assistance he would be toast.

[Louise]

A one on one fight with a gholam, Lan would die.

*nods* It wouldn't matter if Lan was 10x as good as Mat; he would still lose against a gholam without inflicting any damage because those medallions are the only things known that can cause a ghoman harm (well I think balefire would still work)

 

I doubt it, they are immune to the Power.

 

tPoD-ch2-pg78

The Gholam thinks to itself:

'it had never encountered anything that could harm it. Until that man with the medallion.'

 

Remember gholam were created by Aginor in the War of Power. So it must have seen balefire before. The over use of balefire during the War of Power was what caused channelers to stop using it.

[Din]

Lan would win because Mat has an overdeveloped sense of self-preservation. Lan has no limits.

[Arkane101]

Lan would win because Mat has an overdeveloped sense of self-preservation. Lan has no limits.

Thats a point to Lan, also everyone is forgetting that Lan is a fairly lucky person too, for NS they were all calling him the luckiest man in the world, though obviously Mat is luckier, I don't think his luck would help him quite as much as it would against any other person.

[Lisa Campbell]

I know that it's probably been agued before but AFAIK Lan is not a blademaster. I know that he killed Toram in Far Madding but as this wasn't witnessed does it count?

 

FWIW my vote goes to Mat even if Lan is.

[ThwartAbyss54]

Mat. If its a fight to the death hed just throw a dagger at his heart and end it in 2 seconds, because his luck wouldnt allow him to miss. If it was drawn out i actually think Lan would win, because of the warder bond enhancing him. I voted for (WHY IS MATS EMOTE AT THE VERY BOTTOM!)

[sleepinghour]

The quote from Brandon was after ToM and Gawyn's bonding. Lan is better, word of God leaves no debate.

People will always find reasons to argue against anything they don't want to be true... Which reminds me of the old rasfwrj quote: "What does that guy know? He only wrote the books."

 

I think the fanboying over Mat goes too far sometimes (and I say this as a Mat fan). Some fans like and identify with Mat so much, they want him to be the best fighter in the series, but he isn't. He's a very, very good fighter, but would have been long dead if not for his luck/ta'veren powers and the medallion. That doesn't make him any less awesome.

 

I know that it's probably been agued before but AFAIK Lan is not a blademaster. I know that he killed Toram in Far Madding but as this wasn't witnessed does it count?

Someone asked Team Jordan this. According to RJ's notes, Lan became a Blademaster before the age of twenty. So he was a Blademaster even as a teenager.

[Lisa Campbell]

OK then Sleepinghour, why was it noted in Fal Dara by Rand that Lan's sword that although power wrought, was not that of a blademaster?

[Never]

Lan doesn't need to show of that he's a Blademaster. He would rather carry the Sword of Malkier Kings.

[sleepinghour]

OK then Sleepinghour, why was it noted in Fal Dara by Rand that Lan's sword that although power wrought, was not that of a blademaster?

He's referring to the sword itself. Lan's sword is that of Malkieri kings and was given to him by his parents. As noted by Rand in TGH, it doesn't have a heron mark on it like Blademaster swords, but is also Power-wrought and otherwise looks exactly the same, so Lan has no reason to replace it with a heron-mark sword even though he's entitled to wear one.

 

Btw, here's the Team Jordan quote:

 

Maria: Okay, the notes say that Lan became a blademaster before he turned 20, which would have been before New Spring. My thoughts on this are that Lan got his sword at an early age, and worked really hard with it, and was judged a blademaster by 5 blademasters sometime pretty early on. It's not mentioned specifically that I can find in NS, but it makes sense to me.

[Kahsm]

I don't know if Lan would win. I'm sure Gawyn is stronger than Lan, because he defeated Sleet plus random Gaidin four times (or three, don't know), while Sleet alone beat Lan two of the seven times. I know, Gawyn wasn't that good when he fought Mat, but he was together with Galad, who was better at that point. And he hasn't had that much practice later one.

 

 

Sleet managed to win two of seven from Lan WHEN Lan used to actually duel with other Warders. That was a long time ago.

 

...and as Mark Grayson already mentioned, both RJ and BS have stated quite often, Lan > Rand with two hands > Galad > Gawyn.

 

 

As far as the question here....well, let's see...Mat beat both Galad and Gawyn together with only a quarterstaff and that was before he was given his memories by the Finns.

Memories that he states outright granted him the ability to use his Ashandarei as skillfully as he does.

 

Gotta go with Mat here but only by a 4-3 or 5-2 out of 7.

 

For the billionth time in threads like this. Those quotes are old, Gawyn was just recently bonded. I don't know if it takes a bit to get used to the new capabilities and limits, but Gawyn could very well be as good or better than Lan now. Quotes asside.

 

And even though I agree Mat's luck puts him above everyone, that duel in tGH means nothing. Hammar knew Mat would dominate them because they were underestimating a farmer with a qstaff. Nothing says (luck asside) they wouldn't have done better going again right after.

 

The quote from Brandon was after ToM and Gawyn's bonding. Lan is better, word of God leaves no debate.

 

And Mat could barely walk so put him at full strength and give him the memories and he still whoops even the current more experienced Gawyn and Galad.

 

Sorry my bad, let me rephrase that, and also add the quote you're referring to:

 

sleepinghour on Twitter 8 November 2010

Who is the best swordsman in WoT right now? Lan, Galad, or Gawyn?

Brandon

Lan. Then Galad. Then Gawyn. Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is.

 

The quote refers to Gawyn before bonding. Since Gawyn hasn't fought anyone since bonding, there's no way that can refer to post-bonding combat. Also, if we're going to discount luck as Brandon had done, that kinda changes the whole discussion regarding Mat.

 

I totally understand if someone wants to take this as gospel, but I most certainly feel that there's a tonne of evidence to the contrary regarding Galad being better than Gawyn (ignore Lan for the moment).

 

I mean how on earth could Galad be better than Gawyn at this point? Just look at the success Gawyn has not just with blood knives but in his sparring. I can only assume Galad has been rather busy running the whitecloaks while Gawyn has had next to nothing to do but practice.

 

The only reason I can see is that Gawyn feels he owes Galad his life and therefore (just like he was doing with Egwene) he differs to Galad, subconsciously lets him win. So Gawyn would fare better against Lan than Galad would, but Galad would beat Gawyn because Gawyn sabotages himself against Galad.

 

As for bonding, Galad talks about how Aes Sedai are being selfish not bonding a warder because it makes a man a better solider. All evidence suggests that the difference between a bonded man and a non-bonded man is quite large. So are you going to argue that Gawyn was so much worse than Galad that even with a warder bond he still isn't as good?

[Lisa Campbell]

Still Sleepinghour, not gospel just what M could find in the notes. I know that if I were M I would not admit to anything I even suspected could bite me in the arse.

[capuga]

Still Sleepinghour, not gospel just what M could find in the notes. I know that if I were M I would not admit to anything I even suspected could bite me in the arse.

 

RJ's notes are gospel. Besides, blademaster is a level of skill. Even without a technical trial, Lan is very clearly at that skill level.