Egwene/the Aes Sedai

[Leyrann]

@Master Ablar:

 

Well, I can't link to Terez' theory, because I can't find it, but I'll list some things that get her to that conclusion.

 

Most important is, that there is a chance these books are the books Elan wrote in the AoL, given to Herid by Ishy (Elan), so that he would get that conclusion. Min has those books too.

 

Another one is the moment the breaking of the seals came up by Rand for the first time. A moment of madness, when LTT (who always talks about destroying everything) takes over. In LoC chapter 2, when Taim gives him the seal, he would have destroyed it if Bashere hadn't stopped him.

 

There were more. I can say that I didn't like the idea, but this theory was build up that well, that I was convinced.

 

Back to Egwene. Rand saying he can remember LTT also sounds a bit insane, don't you think so? And it isn't very weird to think Nyn get caught up in Rand's ta'veren, I must say.

 

And I can't believe she wouldn't listen to Rand at FoM.

[Leyrann]

Do you talk about the sisters swearing to her, Zentari? That is, because she needed power to rebuilt the Tower. Otherwise Romanda and Lelaine would still be fighting.

[Zentari]

Do you talk about the sisters swearing to her, Zentari? That is, because she needed power to rebuilt the Tower. Otherwise Romanda and Lelaine would still be fighting.

Of course she did,even if that is nowhere reflected when she makes them swear.More food for thought; what about Myrelle ? Was that absolutely required as well ? Even if it was, and it wasn't, it still does not excuse her actions towards her or the other sisters.

 

She has a habit of collecting power/influence and then keeping it.Perhaps she will discard it,as she claims (she also once claimed something about swearing the oaths if you remember), if her primary goal required it.

[Gentled Ben]

Here's some more non existent introspection from everyone's favourite Amyrlin.

 

I should be dead, she realized. If Gawyn hadn't stopped these assassins, she'd have been murdered in her sleep and would have vanished from Tel'aran'rhiod. She'd never have killed Mesaana.

Suddenly, she felt a fool, any sense of victory completely evaporating.

 

Either I've missed something, or all of your quotes come from ToM, in which a subtle change in Egwene's character happened IMHO. She is more introspective and self-critical. It seems to me it is Brandon's addition, because TGS's Egwene was almost all RJ's and she was totally different, absolutely dominated by her "perfect Amyrlin" persona. RJ even made her give advice on warders to some old Aes Sedai which was beyond ridiculous. I wonder if Brandon's take on Egwene was influenced by her perception by the readers, or maybe more by his own feelings as a long-time fan.

 

Sorry, I've only waded this far through the thread, so if someone else addressed this later, I am probably beating a dead horse, but I won't let that stop me.

In TGS, Chapter 43, Sealed to the Flame, page 664 in the hardcover, there is a whole section of Egwene being introspective, starting with the final sentence of the third paragraph, which reads

 

But first she needed to look inward, to judge what she should have done better.

 

In the fourth paragraph,

 

Perhaps she had been too secretive.

 

Second paragraph on page 665:

 

Had she fallen into the same trap as Siuan? It was a danger. She had been trained by Siuan, after all. If Egwene had explained in more detail how well her work in the White Tower was going, would the others have stayed their hands?

 

There are other examples in that chapter (indeed, even on those two pages), but I am not inclined to type them all out. Lest you scoff that only one chapter has reflection, let's turn to page 704, The Tower Stands, where the first paragraph ends and the second begins like this:

 

She had learned with Moghedien that there was a price to be paid for greed, if just greed for information. She and the others had been too eager--too proud of the "discoveries" they'd made--to see the world rid of one of the Forsaken.

Well, she would not allow a similar mistake here.

 

Since I am not one who feels or argues that she does not reflect upon herself and consider her past decisions, her present motivations, and the fact that she has flaws, I am not going to keep searching them out in the books, but clearly, they are there if you have the eyes to see them. Sometimes people miss things that don't fit their paradigm.

[Kahsm]

Do you talk about the sisters swearing to her, Zentari? That is, because she needed power to rebuilt the Tower. Otherwise Romanda and Lelaine would still be fighting.

Of course she did,even if that is nowhere reflected when she makes them swear.More food for thought; what about Myrelle ? Was that absolutely required as well ? Even if it was, and it wasn't, it still does not excuse her actions towards her or the other sisters.

 

She has a habit of collecting power/influence and then keeping it.Perhaps she will discard it,as she claims (she also once claimed something about swearing the oaths if you remember), if her primary goal required it.

 

So if a character never explicitly says something at the moment the action happens it can't possibly be true? And yet at the same time she didn't say. "Yes! Now I can continue my world domination by gathering more power to myself" and yet you believe that. Long story short you just assume the worst.

 

And no, you can't say we just assume the best because Egwene has stated since tGH she wants to help Rand. She stated since becoming Amyrlin she wouldn't be a puppet, and she has stated since being released from seanchan that she won't be captured again. And to the Wise Ones whom she clearly states she respects she wants to tie the channelers together, and they agree to her plans. Those are her motivations. And of course defeating the dark one.

 

So you could at least get off the crazy horse and complain about how she does things and not ascribe crazy motivations that don't exist. She is not a Tyrant.

[Dewairah]

Yeah... Like nynaeve telling egwene rand is sane haha

[Durinax]

So you could at least get off the crazy horse and complain about how she does things and not ascribe crazy motivations that don't exist. She is not a Tyrant.

except too her friends

[AshaShan]

Trying to claim Egwene isn't power-hungry is like trying to claim Perrin isn't cautious and methodical. Some characteristics are just too central to be denied.

[Lacanos]

Trying to claim Egwene isn't power-hungry is like trying to claim Perrin isn't cautious and methodical. Some characteristics are just too central to be denied.

Power-hungry is the wrong term. It implies she's out for power regardless of competence etc. Rather, Egwene is acting in a way she believes to be the best. She doesn't seize power unnecessarily. Overturning Elaida was the right thing to do, taking control of the hall so they can act together was the right thing to do.

 

Example of her being power hungry please. Or is this more of the "Egwene's a douche" agenda that Luckers banned?

[ironisles]

@Master Ablar:

 

Well, I can't link to Terez' theory, because I can't find it, but I'll list some things that get her to that conclusion.

 

Most important is, that there is a chance these books are the books Elan wrote in the AoL, given to Herid by Ishy (Elan), so that he would get that conclusion. Min has those books too.

 

 

 

Wouldn't Rand recognize a book written by Ishy?

[ZeshanHamdani]

one thing someone brought up is that she wants to close loopholes and stuff in the tower, but since her becoming Amyrlin makes here Aes Sedai she will not take the testing or swear the oaths.

this to me is very disappointing about her, because after the fact that she has done all this good for the WT and the world, she will not do this.

maybe because it will undermine her control and authority as amyrlin, which makes sense.

maybe she will do it later when her seat is more stable and not a "....Rock balance on top of another rock."

will the ends justify the means?

 

another thing about when rand visits her in the WT in ToM.

she speaks without pause, Rands Ta'verenness is making her do this.

she is a thread, just like any other, being woven to help rand.

what good is being a leader if everyone agrees with u.

Rand was a Tyrant, Egwene is not.

 

once again she is who she is, like or dislike, deal with it.

these are books, fictional characters, unless RJ and BS know something we don't.

always be respectful.

 

And, as i asked BS in the ToM Signing in NYC as a tower guard.

i was like why are the women so mean to men.

he was like, and I'm paraphrasing here, that world looks down on men who can channel.

its been that way since the breaking. that is y.

[BMahle]

I was shot down for saying this earlier, so maybe I phrased it incorrectly, but I think the bottom line is that Egwene puts the White Tower above everything else, as has been pointed out before. She still wants the WT to be the main power in the world, with more communication and relationships with the other channelers, but still on top. She's not Elaida, power hungry just for the sake of being powerful. She is, however, in a position of power and does what she has to according to that position. I don't personally think she's a very likeable character, but she makes a competent Amyrlin, moreso than some of the more appealing characters would.

[ZeshanHamdani]

she is not power hungry she is power needy.

as in she needs more power to complete goals, whether they by the WT's or hers.

[BMahle]

one thing someone brought up is that she wants to close loopholes and stuff in the tower, but since her becoming Amyrlin makes here Aes Sedai she will not take the testing or swear the oaths.

this to me is very disappointing about her, because after the fact that she has done all this good for the WT and the world, she will not do this.

maybe because it will undermine her control and authority as amyrlin, which makes sense.

maybe she will do it later when her seat is more stable and not a "....Rock balance on top of another rock."

will the ends justify the means?

 

another thing about when rand visits her in the WT in ToM.

she speaks without pause, Rands Ta'verenness is making her do this.

she is a thread, just like any other, being woven to help rand.

what good is being a leader if everyone agrees with u.

Rand was a Tyrant, Egwene is not.

 

once again she is who she is, like or dislike, deal with it.

these are books, fictional characters, unless RJ and BS know something we don't.

always be respectful.

 

And, as i asked BS in the ToM Signing in NYC as a tower guard.

i was like why are the women so mean to men.

he was like, and I'm paraphrasing here, that world looks down on men who can channel.

its been that way since the breaking. that is y.

 

I might be confused on what you're saying, but I'm pretty sure Egwene did swear the oaths when she had her ceremony to outroot Black Ajah.

[Gentled Ben]

one thing someone brought up is that she wants to close loopholes and stuff in the tower, but since her becoming Amyrlin makes here Aes Sedai she will not take the testing or swear the oaths.

this to me is very disappointing about her, because after the fact that she has done all this good for the WT and the world, she will not do this.

 

 

From TGS, Sealed to the Flame, the last paragraph on page 678:

 

Egwene wove Spirit into the Rod, then spoke in a clear voice. "I vow that I will speak no word that is not true." She felt the oath fall over her like a physical thing, her skin growing tighter, prickling. It was easy to ignore; the pain was nothing compared with what she had been through. "I vow that I will make no weapon for one man to kill another. I vow that I will never use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends and Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending my life or that of my Warder or of another sister."

 

From page 679, a paragraph later;

 

"Let it no longer be thought that I can avoid keeping the Three Oaths,' Egwene announced. "Let it no longer be breathed that I am not fully Aes Sedai." None of them said anything about her not having taken the test to gain the shawl. She would see to that another day.

[ZeshanHamdani]

lol, ty.

i totally forgot that.

but, she has not taken nor will she take the test for becoming Aes Sedai.

[MasterAblar]

@Master Ablar:

 

Well, I can't link to Terez' theory, because I can't find it, but I'll list some things that get her to that conclusion.

 

Most important is, that there is a chance these books are the books Elan wrote in the AoL, given to Herid by Ishy (Elan), so that he would get that conclusion. Min has those books too.

 

Another one is the moment the breaking of the seals came up by Rand for the first time. A moment of madness, when LTT (who always talks about destroying everything) takes over. In LoC chapter 2, when Taim gives him the seal, he would have destroyed it if Bashere hadn't stopped him.

 

There were more. I can say that I didn't like the idea, but this theory was build up that well, that I was convinced.

 

Back to Egwene. Rand saying he can remember LTT also sounds a bit insane, don't you think so? And it isn't very weird to think Nyn get caught up in Rand's ta'veren, I must say.

 

And I can't believe she wouldn't listen to Rand at FoM.

 

Well the thing about LTT is that while he was clearly insane, he seemed to have moments of sanity. Rand himself noticed this. For example in KoD, News for the Dragon (I think), Rand sees Moridin face and he and LTT start talking to each other, and Rand thinks to himself that LTT occasionaly sounded sane. It's also LTT who gave Rand the answer when Rand was about to destroy everything on Dragonmount. So I think it's possible that LTT wanting to destroy the seals may have been one of his less crazy ideas.

Well I haven't read this theory so I don't know why exactly Terez thought this, but I can't help but wonder why Moridin would want Herid Fel killed right when he was coming to the conclusion that Moridin wanted. Seems sort of counter productive.

 

Rand saying he can remember does sound insane, but if Nyneave is not being influenced by Rand, then Egwene has a problem since Rand is apperently sane but saying crazy stuff. In fact she herself remarks when she meets him that he seems perfectly sane but what he says is insane. Now of course if Nyneave is being influenced she has nothing to worry about, but why is she so sure that Nyneave is being influenced? That's what I'm getting at. At thhis point Egwene has no certainties, she's pretty much left in the dark, and can't come up with any absolute conclusions. Yet she's made the decision that Rand is wrong despite this. That's what surprised me and honestly dissapointed me somewhat. At no point did she seem to consider that there might something she wasn't aware of, some piece of information which Rand has which she doesn't. And that's something which she should have been able to logically deduce. Whether out of pride, or lack of attention, or having other things to deal with (like Mesaana), she never seemed to think that Rand might know something she didn't. And while I'm all for her being confident in herself, there's such a thing as being over confident.

 

I don't believe she has any choice but to listen to Rand at the FoM. I mean she's certainly not stupid enough to try and stop him by force, and quite honestly she doesn't have the man-power (or women-power in this case I suppose), to pull it off. That said I'm convinced the talks at the FoM are going to have to be put on hold. I mean between the attack on Caemlyn, the crap going on the BT, and possibly even an attack on the WT by the Seanchan (maybe all simultanously. Wouldn't that start the book off with a bang!), they won't be able to just sit there and talk.

 

EDIT: I found Terez's theory at theory land.. Now I'm going to read it.

[Gentled Ben]

See below.

[Gentled Ben]

lol, ty.

i totally forgot that.

but, she has not taken nor will she take the test for becoming Aes Sedai.

 

Well first, so? And second, what proof do you have that she will not take it? Her thoughts, as highlighted in bold text in my quote, indicate that she intends to take the test someday.

 

Sorry, I thought I had quoted the relevant post when I responded the first time.

[Zentari]

 

So if a character never explicitly says something at the moment the action happens it can't possibly be true? And yet at the same time she didn't say. "Yes! Now I can continue my world domination by gathering more power to myself" and yet you believe that. Long story short you just assume the worst.

Care to explain how the bullying and forcing Myrelle to swear had anything to do with this ? I waive the other AS since that explanation CAN be applied to their situations (doubtful, but it can).

 

And no, you can't say we just assume the best because Egwene has stated since tGH she wants to help Rand. She stated since becoming Amyrlin she wouldn't be a puppet, and she has stated since being released from seanchan that she won't be captured again. And to the Wise Ones whom she clearly states she respects she wants to tie the channelers together, and they agree to her plans. Those are her motivations. And of course defeating the dark one.

Really ? Does that include the part with the lace binding ? The one she bullies nyn ? When she jumps at Myrelle ? Planning to change kings because they didn't jump on her word ? So yeah, I can say that you are pretty much assume the best when even good is debatable.

 

So you could at least get off the crazy horse and complain about how she does things and not ascribe crazy motivations that don't exist. She is not a Tyrant.

I like my horse.I enjoy looking at you plebes from high up ! </sarcasm>

Any actual arguments to be made ?

 

Trying to claim Egwene isn't power-hungry is like trying to claim Perrin isn't cautious and methodical. Some characteristics are just too central to be denied.

Power-hungry is the wrong term. It implies she's out for power regardless of competence etc. Rather, Egwene is acting in a way she believes to be the best. She doesn't seize power unnecessarily.

So power-hungry is the wrong term because she feels justified in doing so ? Awesome.She seeks power for a reason, but she still seeks it, with forceful persuasion if necessary.

[ZeshanHamdani]

lol, ty.

i totally forgot that.

but, she has not taken nor will she take the test for becoming Aes Sedai.

 

Well first, so? And second, what proof do you have that she will not take it? Her thoughts, as highlighted in bold text in my quote, indicate that she intends to take the test someday.

 

Sorry, I thought I had quoted the relevant post when I responded the first time.

 

hehe, np.

my last post was supposed to say YET at the end.

i do feel that she will take the test but not now, because its not good for her right now.

she should close that loophole and take the test and end it.

[Gentled Ben]

lol, ty.

i totally forgot that.

but, she has not taken nor will she take the test for becoming Aes Sedai.

 

Well first, so? And second, what proof do you have that she will not take it? Her thoughts, as highlighted in bold text in my quote, indicate that she intends to take the test someday.

 

Sorry, I thought I had quoted the relevant post when I responded the first time.

 

hehe, np.

my last post was supposed to say YET at the end.

i do feel that she will take the test but not now, because its not good for her right now.

she should close that loophole and take the test and end it.

Oh, okay.

[MasterAblar]

lol, ty.

i totally forgot that.

but, she has not taken nor will she take the test for becoming Aes Sedai.

 

Well first, so? And second, what proof do you have that she will not take it? Her thoughts, as highlighted in bold text in my quote, indicate that she intends to take the test someday.

 

Sorry, I thought I had quoted the relevant post when I responded the first time.

 

hehe, np.

my last post was supposed to say YET at the end.

i do feel that she will take the test but not now, because its not good for her right now.

she should close that loophole and take the test and end it.

Oh, okay.

 

I'm pretty sure Egwene said she had no intention of taking the test at one point in ToM. Possibly when she is talking to Elayne and Nyneave.

[Gentled Ben]

lol, ty.

i totally forgot that.

but, she has not taken nor will she take the test for becoming Aes Sedai.

 

Well first, so? And second, what proof do you have that she will not take it? Her thoughts, as highlighted in bold text in my quote, indicate that she intends to take the test someday.

 

Sorry, I thought I had quoted the relevant post when I responded the first time.

 

hehe, np.

my last post was supposed to say YET at the end.

i do feel that she will take the test but not now, because its not good for her right now.

she should close that loophole and take the test and end it.

Oh, okay.

 

I'm pretty sure Egwene said she had no intention of taking the test at one point in ToM. Possibly when she is talking to Elayne and Nyneave.

Okay, let's say she has changed her mind about the test and no longer intends to take it. So?

[ZeshanHamdani]

it's not right and she knows it.

then she becomes self serving.

but, i know she will take it......eventually.

but i doubt we will see when she does.