Mafia Grievances

[Nolder]

I think refusing to lie is outside the spirit of the game but some people do it anyway

 

Also I think you're kinda confusing what I mean with like actual lurking

If I'm going to lurk as a strategy it's because I want to avoid giving my thoughts on a certain situation or voting/unvoting someone or other such similar things

I'm not going to lurk just to make it harder for people to get a read on me

 

I agree that inactivity is a problem

I think the only real solution is to instill more of a sense of responsibility in people and make it clear that signing up for a mafia game is not a light commitment

You are agreeing to devote quite a bit of your time and energy on the game

Not everyone can do that with school and jobs and stuff and that's totally fine

But they need to stop signing up

[peacesells]

Too many DM games break down a bit because the only people that get fos'd at first are the active ones. Once they either lynch the actives, or veer off them cause of claims, there's often not as many avenues to explore cause too many people are being inactive

 

I think this is an actual problem and it happens all too often. Active players get lynched cause everyone (including me) is paranoid. We'd rather lynch than be deceived. Human nature. You combat this by making everyone participate. Some lurking is a legit tactic but this is a participatory game and should be treated as such.

 

A good example is the Avengers game on myndjack. Started off great til all the active players got lynched and then it just died. Took weeks to finish after that.

 

If real is getting in your way, there is nothing wrong with asking for a replacement.

 

I cringe when I hear the following," Sorry I haven't been here much, such and such has kept me from playing. I'll try and catch up and post." Then 3 days later the same exact post is made by the same player. You know what I'm thinking. Gee thanks for wasting my time. Very disrespectful of others imo.

 

I really hate hearing excuses...biggest turn off in the world to me. If you can't play..just say so and keep everyones respect.

[Arez Al'Loke]

 

I cringe when I hear the following," Sorry I haven't been here much, such and such has kept me from playing. I'll try and catch up and post." Then 3 days later the same exact post is made by the same player. You know what I'm thinking. Gee thanks for wasting my time. Very disrespectful of others imo.

 

 

I reallly reaaalllly love those.

 

Regarding this whole issue, there will be a time in your lives (everyone) when you actually have real things that are going to devour your time. Perhaps your grandmother is dying and you want to visit her one last time before she leaves the world.. DM isn't really gonna be your top priority. Or perhaps your work-comrade calls in sick for the whole week and you need to take his workload aswell, further increasing the time you're at work.

 

You have to consider some of these things. And when a player who is usually active and explains why he isn't, that shouldn't be frowned upon. The frustrating thing is when the same player ALWAYS has some wierd reason for not participating..

 

"My life is reeeaaaally busy right now.." WHAT is that supposed to mean?

"Sorry I haven't been able to get on recently, I will catch up now!!" and then they DON'T. That is really annoying.

[LilyElizabeth]

I wonder why some people don't realize that you can be confrontational and assertive, even aggressive without being as big of a jerk as you know how to be. It sure spoils the game for those of us who come to have fun and don't consider watching that fun. It makes me lose a lot of respect for the person who doesn't have appropriate boundaries.

 

I never used to see this sort of behavior in the old days. Jack (among others) was direct and persistent, but never a complete jerk or a bully. It gives me a sad to see what's happened to mafia here. No wonder the older players don't play here anymore. I'm taking a break again other than DPRs upcoming game.

 

I also wonder why the mods today put up with this. They would never get away with it in a game of mine. I can think of other mods who used to mod here who seem to feel the same.

 

I'm sure there will be plenty of newer players who disagree with me, and they are entitled to their opinions. I just wanted to try to do my part to bring the fun of the game back.

[RandA lThor]

New one for me, and this includes what I do: people who don't read the rules, they can ruin the game setup, like I did, possible since they have to get modkilled. I would like everyone who does this to read the rules, which I do, and then remember them, which I don't. Don't just assume generic rules for all games, which I do. All of the things I just said I did I am working on improving and would like others to do so as well. This also includes opening scenes which may have information which some people ignore.

[Alanna]

I completely agree with you, Lily. The general style of play is more aggressive and, well, jerk-like than it used to be. I just feel like people take things too seriously these days. Mafia used to be more light-hearted and fun. That's not to say we didn't take the game seriously and play well and play hard, but the tone of the games was just different.

 

I think it's possible that some mods even feel like they can't do anything about it, because of the way most people are about it now. For example - I modded an Aiel-themed mafia game last summer, about a year ago now. And I felt a player went off in Jack in a way that was totally off the grid, beyond aggressive,to me he was being rude when he didn't need to be. And I told the player off, in mod-mode, and while Jack appreciated it, a lot of the other players seemed to think I was out of bounds. They acted like I was being oversensitive. It still bothers me, because on the one hand, I should feel like I can kind of set the bounds of what is okay and not okay in my games; on the other hand, if the general majority thinks I'm overreacting, I start to feel like maybe I am. It's like the moment you try to step in on things like that, as the mod, you get accused of limiting people's gameplay. And I'm like, why do you have to be rude and be a jerk for your gameplay? You can be aggressive without being rude.

[RandA lThor]

Agree with both of you on that one, personal insults are not needed in mafia, there is a limit to what you can say.

[LilyElizabeth]

Alanna, I know what you mean about being unsure if you should step in as a mod. But I'm really glad to know someone else sees what I see.

[RandA lThor]

So far, this hasn't been a problem in my 1 game :), but I have signed up to do 2 more modding wise, and I hope that this won't be an issue in either one of those.

[Nolder]

I feel there should be almost no boundaries to how far you're allowed to push someone

I realize because this is DM we have "PG13" limits but if you're strategy is to get someone really angry or upset I respect it as a strategy

It's not something I like to see happen as a person but as a mod unless someone says something to me specifically I probably wont step in

 

To me mafia is no holds barred

[RandA lThor]

I personally think that that is too strong of a statement. For me, all insults must be in the mafia world only, for example, "You can't play as mafia well, you always give yourself away and don't help your team." is fine. "You are dumb, why do you play this game if you don't even understand what is happening." is going too far.

[Nolder]

It's not though...

People give things away when they're angry or in distress

 

IDK

I can appreciate not wanting to be in a game with people who use such tactics but at the same time I still think it's a valid strategy

 

I guess mods just need to be clear what they will and wont tolerate in their games

[John E. Kelley]

I think it's more a matter of tone. The guys on JN will say things to each other that would send most people here running for cover. But despite the things said, you can tell these guys are friends. Sure, the conversations can get vulgar, but you can tell by the tone that they don't dislike each other.

 

When you can tell by the tone that someone is honestly trying to be hateful and insulting, that's a problem. It isn't the words themselves I have a problem with. Like Nol said, saying something to get a reaction is no problem in my book. But you can say the exact same thing, and if it's a legit attempt to be a p.o.s., that's something completely different.

 

And that's what I think has happened a lot recently on DM, players trying to insult and belittle each other for no game reason, but only because they can't separate the game from RL personalities.

[Gabriel Kross]

I dislike the lazyness I've seen in games, everyone just throwing out a vote with no reason or because of deadline. If you had been playing in the first place deadline wouldn't be an issue. Then all the poor casing done isn't much better.

[peacesells]

Agree with the first part EP.

 

Not with the second part. No casing is poor play. I consider all casing purposeful. It may appear poor to you but it may be a tactic.

 

Now poor play can be frustrating. And by poor play I mean play that only amuses yourself at the expense of town as a whole. If you are town and playing scummy or anti town down be shocked when someone points it out. It's a team game even if you don't know who your team mates are.

[Gabriel Kross]

I wasn't even talking about me. I can't go into details because all the games I'm refering to are still active.

[peacesells]

As far as Lily's point goes I've witnessed several people who fail to understand sentence structure and the english language. These people are quick to assume there is an insult where there isn't one.

 

If players read more carefully then I bet there would be less people who felt insulted.

 

But if I hear about one more headache In a game thread I might go on an insult rampage.

[Arez Al'Loke]

I wonder why some people don't realize that you can be confrontational and assertive, even aggressive without being as big of a jerk as you know how to be. It sure spoils the game for those of us who come to have fun and don't consider watching that fun. It makes me lose a lot of respect for the person who doesn't have appropriate boundaries.

 

I never used to see this sort of behavior in the old days. Jack (among others) was direct and persistent, but never a complete jerk or a bully. It gives me a sad to see what's happened to mafia here. No wonder the older players don't play here anymore. I'm taking a break again other than DPRs upcoming game.

 

I also wonder why the mods today put up with this. They would never get away with it in a game of mine. I can think of other mods who used to mod here who seem to feel the same.

 

I'm sure there will be plenty of newer players who disagree with me, and they are entitled to their opinions. I just wanted to try to do my part to bring the fun of the game back.

 

+1

[cosmicpanda]

For me, mafia is fun above all else. Personal attacks and acrimony are not fun. Therefore, I see no place for them in the game. Personally, I try not to cross the line between saying that something that somebody has said is stupid and saying that that person is stupid. (Even that's going a bit far... I like to try and be logical.) Sometimes things can get intense, and if as a result of arguing back and forth with somebody I manage to somehow make them feel bad, I regret that.

 

As a mod, I've started including a rule about civility. I've warned people in the past for not being civil. I haven't modkilled anybody yet.

[Verbal32]

I wonder why some people don't realize that you can be confrontational and assertive, even aggressive without being as big of a jerk as you know how to be. It sure spoils the game for those of us who come to have fun and don't consider watching that fun. It makes me lose a lot of respect for the person who doesn't have appropriate boundaries.

 

I never used to see this sort of behavior in the old days. Jack (among others) was direct and persistent, but never a complete jerk or a bully. It gives me a sad to see what's happened to mafia here. No wonder the older players don't play here anymore. I'm taking a break again other than DPRs upcoming game.

 

I also wonder why the mods today put up with this. They would never get away with it in a game of mine. I can think of other mods who used to mod here who seem to feel the same.

 

I'm sure there will be plenty of newer players who disagree with me, and they are entitled to their opinions. I just wanted to try to do my part to bring the fun of the game back.

 

A generational thing in DM, for sure. You say "old days" and then mention Jack. To me, Jack is a newer player. Not as new as Rand, say, but new to me. Barm, Wes, Kiv, thedude, Vemy - those guys are the "old days". Each successive "generation" has gotten more and more aggressive. I don't have a problem with that (I play on JN as my primary site after all, hehe), but I can understand where people are coming from on a site like DM.

 

 

 

It's not though...

People give things away when they're angry or in distress

 

IDK

I can appreciate not wanting to be in a game with people who use such tactics but at the same time I still think it's a valid strategy

 

I guess mods just need to be clear what they will and wont tolerate in their games

 

Nail, meet hammer. Exactly to the point. If you mod and you don't like the newer attitude in games, make a rule about it. But most importantly, enforce it. You can't just say "play nice" - there must be consequences to negative actions.

[JenLenaMom]

 

It's not though...

People give things away when they're angry or in distress

 

IDK

I can appreciate not wanting to be in a game with people who use such tactics but at the same time I still think it's a valid strategy

 

I guess mods just need to be clear what they will and wont tolerate in their games

 

Nail, meet hammer. Exactly to the point. If you mod and you don't like the newer attitude in games, make a rule about it. But most importantly, enforce it. You can't just say "play nice" - there must be consequences to negative actions.

 

And the players need to understand that the mod has rules for a reason and not pitch a fit when they are enforced. Post the rules-with consequences-at sign ups so everyone knows what kind of game they are getting into.

[Niniel]

As far as Lily's point goes I've witnessed several people who fail to understand sentence structure and the english language. These people are quick to assume there is an insult where there isn't one.

 

If players read more carefully then I bet there would be less people who felt insulted.

 

But if I hear about one more headache In a game thread I might go on an insult rampage.

 

With players from all over the world you will always have some that aren´t good at English. On an on line forum like this you can´t see peoples faces so of course it´s not always easy to interpret something that the writer meant in a certain way. Especially in mafia when you need to read between the lines.

[bgrishinko]

I think it can be hard sometimes for people to differentiate when someone is criticizing you based on a your play in a game and criticizing you on a personal level. There is a reason I include this as a rule in my games now:

 

16. This is a game. Everything that occurs in this thread is part of the game. If someone is pushing your buttons, take it as in-game play only. If you find something truly offensive, please PM me and we will work it out behind the scenes with the offender. Keep anything on thread pure game.

 

For example, I remember things getting a little heated in a game because someone used the word "retarded" toward Mynd. I think it was handled well though. Mynd felt that the word was an offensive word and politely asked that it not be used anymore and for the most part people understood that, an apology was made, and game continued on while still flaming on Mynd in other ways.

 

Its hard sometimes for a Mod to know what is in game strategy or straight up being mean. Its also hard to know what some people will take offense to and other's will accept as friendly badgering.

 

So I say everything is in game unless an official complaint is made.

[bgrishinko]

I dislike the lazyness I've seen in games, everyone just throwing out a vote with no reason or because of deadline. If you had been playing in the first place deadline wouldn't be an issue. Then all the poor casing done isn't much better.

 

Inactivity is always unfortunate. But I'm not certain that's what you are referring to here. Inactivity has happened since the dawn of Mafia, especially in the early parts of the game... its unfortunate, but there it is.

 

Criticizing and getting mad about poor casing might be frustrating, but I don't think that is fair to quit games because of it. Especially when there are lots of new players who are doing their best to learn the ropes. People don't see things in the same way, people case differently, people ride on other people they trust's coat tails. And some people keep their opinions to themselves out of strategy. Sometimes people have a reason but don't feel like sharing it. Are they lazy? Not necessarily. Would you call Wombat a lazy player since he's more tightlipped that some others? No.

[Gabriel Kross]

I'm taking a break from games as a whole once the last few wind down, I'm still debating whether or not to stay in DPR's and Alanna's signups. The atmosphere, gameplay, and activity level as a whole has been bothering me lately. Not to mention just really bad plays, day vigs shooting the cop as soon as the game starts... One of the worst plays ever...