Taralan vs. Arvalon

[UGAShadow]

Both are mentioned in quotes relating to the Dragon (Taralan in tDR, Arvalon in LoC). They both seem to be corruptions of Tar Valon.

 

 

So, what does this mean? Are they from the same city but centuries apart? Or are there two cities based on Tar Valon in the 4th age (maybe Tar Valon is destroyed in the Last Battle)?

[mb]

I recall past threads asking similar things.

 

As far as I am aware, neither author explained the city names of 4th Age quotes.

[Din]

The precursor of modern Tar Valon was named 'Great Aravalon'. I cannot remember the source.

[Leyrann]

Which source? IIRC, Tar Valon was just Tar Valon. Even in the time of the Ten Nations. Maybe Dragonmount will erupt and split Tar Valon, so there are two cities, one named Arvalon and the other Taralan.

[dexterryu]

It could be that both are referenced to the same Tar Valon just at different points in the future that occurs than the 4th age.

[Suttree]

The Great Arvalon reference comes from the 4th Age, which would seem to indicate Tar Valon's place in the world will continue to grow.

 

“The lions sing and the hills take flight. The moon by day, and the sun by night. Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool. Let the Lord of Chaos rule.”

—Chant from a children's game heard in Great Arvalon, Fourth Age

[XXX]

Tar Valon as a female dominated AS organization will not survive as the most powerful group in Randland. It is not even the most powerful today.

[Orderofolde]

Maybe hints as to what lays in the Blight. Malkier likely wasn't the only nation swallowed little by little by the blight in the different ages.

[Leyrann]

You mean something swallowed by the Blight earlier? The Blight didn't exist before the creation of the bore, and apart from Malkier only some steddings were swallowed. And some parts of lands.

[mb]

The precursor of modern Tar Valon was named 'Great Aravalon'. I cannot remember the source.

As far as I am aware, Tar Valon did not have any precursors.

Your source is/was probably some third party site.

[Thor]

Tar Valon the island didn't even exist until LTT blew himself up.

[mb]

Pouring earth & fire upon himself seems more accurate than blowing himself up.

[Didgya]

Pouring earth & fire upon himself seems more accurate than blowing himself up.

Hmmm...Sounds like LTT and Lanfear's old love life or a song from the 80's age (pour some earth and fire upon me...in the name of LOVE)

[Dreggs Morlock]

The Great Arvalon reference comes from the 4th Age, which would seem to indicate Tar Valon's place in the world will continue to grow.

 

“The lions sing and the hills take flight. The moon by day, and the sun by night. Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool. Let the Lord of Chaos rule.”

—Chant from a children's game heard in Great Arvalon, Fourth Age

What is cool here is... we will probably be able to figure out why the kids would chant this after reading MoL. As we now use "Ring around the Rosy" in children's games, I would think this chant has roots in something just as...horrendous.

[Jimvzyl]

I would think that Arvalon would most likely be a language development, as people gradually drop the 'T' from the name of the city and join the two words.

Taralan is less related in language (including only the 'Tar') and I would think it is a different city, perhaps from a different period.

 

If they are of the same city - One could propose a degeneration of language (Tar Valon - Taralan) as speech becomes less eloquent. (Evidenced by the Old Tongue -> Common) and a renaissance occuring later, with the original name being brought back, whilst dropping the T to become Arvalon.

 

What I do find interesting is the relation between "T" and "A" as in Tamyrlin and Amyrlin. Is this a degeneration of language from AoL to 3rd Age? Or is it a gender difference between the leading men and women of Aes Sedai?

 

If its a gender difference, one could predict that the two cities are of opposing orders of male channelers and female channelers (Male in Tamalan and Female in Arvalon)

 

Just some thoughts :)

[Kahsm]

Tar Valon as a female dominated AS organization will not survive as the most powerful group in Randland. It is not even the most powerful today.

 

Really? Must you poison this thread too? I can picture you reading that quote above about a great Tar Valon (Arvalon) and thinking, "Oh my god someone suggested Aes Sedai might do something good in the future, I must try to break them!"

 

First of all "Tar Valon" is a city, it is not a female dominated AS organization. So don't worry, for all we know Great Arvalon might be governed by Seanchan descendants in the 4th age (though I doubt it).

 

Unfortuantely for you, there's Elaida's Fortelling which is guarenteed:

The White Tower will be whole again [by Egwene], except for remnants cast out and scorned [by Egwene], whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger [99.9% likely to be Egwene]. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell.

 

Given the foretelling seems to be about Egwene, I would guess she'll be the one making it "stronger than ever" too. Though some suggest this might just refer to OP power level, since they're picking up stronger channelers. Which I assume you'll jump on too since it's the most pessimistic you can be.

[sleepinghour]

Unfortuantely for you, there's Elaida's Fortelling which is guarenteed:

The White Tower will be whole again [by Egwene], except for remnants cast out and scorned [by Egwene], whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger [99.9% likely to be Egwene]. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell.

 

Given the foretelling seems to be about Egwene, I would guess she'll be the one making it "stronger than ever" too. Though some suggest this might just refer to OP power level, since they're picking up stronger channelers. Which I assume you'll jump on too since it's the most pessimistic you can be.

It already IS "stronger than ever" since the Black Ajah's fled. The middle part was fulfilled in the chapter "The Amyrlin's Anger" in ToM. The only part left unfulfilled is the last sentence.

[rand4747]

witht he amount of new novices it will be stronger than ever once they are half decent channelers. Even with the black ajah dead or fled the tower has alot more than they previously had. Likely by that time they had more novices than accepted and aes sedai combined.

 

Also Arvalon is probably tar valon where as Taralan is somewhere else, is there any other cities with a similar name? Of course it could be a minor spec of a village or even non existen in the 3rd age or maybe even a complete rename.

 

—from Do’in Toldara te, Songs of the Last Age,

Quarto Nine: The Legend of the Dragon.

Composed by Boanne,

Songmistress at Taralan,

the Fourth Age

[Kahsm]

Unfortuantely for you, there's Elaida's Fortelling which is guarenteed:

The White Tower will be whole again [by Egwene], except for remnants cast out and scorned [by Egwene], whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger [99.9% likely to be Egwene]. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell.

 

Given the foretelling seems to be about Egwene, I would guess she'll be the one making it "stronger than ever" too. Though some suggest this might just refer to OP power level, since they're picking up stronger channelers. Which I assume you'll jump on too since it's the most pessimistic you can be.

It already IS "stronger than ever" since the Black Ajah's fled. The middle part was fulfilled in the chapter "The Amyrlin's Anger" in ToM. The only part left unfulfilled is the last sentence.

 

There was no anger in that scene. Knowing the anger will come later, probably at FoM or soon after.

 

Are you suggesting the "stronger than ever" was in between being reunited and being shown what's what by the Seanchan? I don't think we've seen a stronger than ever white tower... it says "ever" not "in the last while".

[XXX]

The chapter Amyrlin's anger refers to the anger part in the propecy..it cannot be more clear.

 

Anyway I don't care whether AS become stronger than ever as long as the monopoly of the female AS over the world is broken..which it will be considering that the men are channeling now.

[sleepinghour]

There was no anger in that scene. Knowing the anger will come later, probably at FoM or soon after.

 

Are you suggesting the "stronger than ever" was in between being reunited and being shown what's what by the Seanchan? I don't think we've seen a stronger than ever white tower... it says "ever" not "in the last while".

The chapter itself was called "The Amyrlin's Anger" and Egwene "sat back down, angry" after Rand turned his back on her to leave. What more do you ask for? Steam coming out of her ears?

 

And yes, the Tower is already stronger than ever: Egwene thought of the Black Ajah as "the worst kind of rot," which the Tower is now, for the first time, completely free of. The Salidar AS also brought a large number of new novices like Sharina and Nicola.

[Kahsm]

The chapter Amyrlin's anger refers to the anger part in the propecy..it cannot be more clear.

 

Anyway I don't care whether AS become stronger than ever as long as the monopoly of the female AS over the world is broken..which it will be considering that the men are channeling now.

 

I love how a chapter title is somehow proof against the text.

 

Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger

 

There is no "knowing" of her anger. Zero. It's actually quite a peaceful meeting given the topic. Seems quite clear to me that the confrontation will happen at FoM. So that will be where they face and anger is known. The chapter title is related yes but by no means does it mean the prophecy is done.

 

"after Rand turned his back"

 

He will know her anger. It doesn't say she WILL be angry. As I said, she was relatively calm with him.

[Dreggs Morlock]

Egwene yells at Rand to not turn his back on her, and Rand spins around... I'm guessing in surprise? Either way, with all the light flooding from his body making the other Aei Sedai all in rapture or whatever, I am certain THAT was the "anger" he would know.

 

I say this because I think he is going tto win the arguement over the seals in MoL... it wouldn't make sense that Egwene could flip out at him, and THAT would change his mind.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i think the names are just evolving/revolving back into avalon over time.

[Kahsm]

Egwene yells at Rand to not turn his back on her, and Rand spins around... I'm guessing in surprise? Either way, with all the light flooding from his body making the other Aei Sedai all in rapture or whatever, I am certain THAT was the "anger" he would know.

 

I say this because I think he is going tto win the arguement over the seals in MoL... it wouldn't make sense that Egwene could flip out at him, and THAT would change his mind.

 

Alright, so I reread the scene.

 

There is no anger there, nothing to write home about let alone put in a foretelling. Her demand was about protocol:

"Rand al'Thor!" she said, rising. "You will not turn your back on the Amyrlin Seat!"

 

After that comes the only mention of anger:

 

He seemed amused. Light! She sat back down, angry. That bullhead-edness of his was just like that of his father. "There are things we must speak of, Rand. Not just this, but other things—the sisters your men have bonded not the least among them."

"We can speak of that when we next meet."

She frowned at him.

"And so here we come to it," Rand said. He bowed to her—a shallow bow, almost more a tip of the head. "Egwene al'Vere, Watcher of the Seals, Flame of Tar Valon, may I have your permission to withdraw?"

He asked it so politely. She couldn't tell if he was mocking her or not. She met his eyes. Don't make me do anything I would regret, his expression seemed to say.

Could she really confine him here? After what she'd said to Elaida about him needing to be free?

"I will not let you break the seals," she said. "That is madness."

"Then meet with me at the place known as the Field of Merrilor, just to the north. We will talk before I go to Shayol Ghul. For now, I do not want to defy you, Egwene. But I must go."

Neither of them looked away. The others in the room seemed not to breathe. The chamber was still enough for Egwene to hear the faint breeze making the rose window groan in its lead.

"Very well," Egwene said. "But this is not ended, Rand."

"There are no endings, Egwene," he replied, then nodded to her and turned to walk from the Hall. Light! He was missing his left hand! How had that happened?

 

And I quoted the rest to show there's no 'knowing' of her anger on Rand's part. It's actually quote cordial. I mean come on! "she frowned at him" and "very well, this is not ended, Rand." You believe THAT fullfills "and he shall know her anger"?