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What plot points do you think should have been different?


Kal11
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Agreed about the killing off characters. I think the OP is completely underused by the Forsaken .. e.g. gateway to Perrin's tent, balefire, the end (not that I'm suggesting this). On the other hand, Birgitte should have been accidentally killed by balefire (because it would have been so tragic). Thom should die in the next book, and Loial, and Tam, and maybe Nynaeve? Lan losing her after all he's lost already...

 

Also, Seanchan. The logical conclusion to the books is Tarmon Gai'don; Aviendha's visions and all the futuristic technology (guns) is a) cheap fantasy b) outside the confines of what this is supposed to be about. There should have been no visions whatsoever of anything after the Last Battle, it's outcome being so uncertain and all.

 

And the Shadow feels underpowered. Relying too much on good old Trollocs while all the Black Ajah do is plot weakly and get captured. We haven't seen a real battle with the one power yet, with dozens of channelers and a couple of angreal and instead of everyone running around, actually fighting weave for weave. Balefire sort of makes all battle redundant, really - maybe to accommodate that they do it near a ter'angreal that unravels Spirit weaves (balefire is mostly Spirit .. right?). Or they discover something new about mutual destruction with balefire (i.e. the root of the Rand/Moridin connection?) and abandon its use in battle for that reason... Or they fight close to a structure that would risk all their deaths if balefire came into contact with it (this is fun isn't it?).

 

Also, agreed on the forced couplings. And I kind of feel like women are forced to have important roles, like not just as Aes Sedai but also innkeepers, political manipulators behind their husbands, etc. Does anyone have a wife that cooks? Not saying it shouldn't be like that, if anything it's a great addition and one of the things that distinguishes Jordan from Tolkien, but there is a point where it's just overdone.

 

Hmm ... with regards to the Black Ajah, they should have come up with some very powerful (new) channelers of their own. Maybe a Brown that had been secretly experimenting with Shadowspawn, creating new types, or more powerful Trollocks, or something. There was never much of an emphasis on the ancient nature of so many of the artefacts they casually wave about - the gholem Mat killed was the last of it's kind, over 3500 years old. And then there's a definite connection between the days approaching Tarmon Gai'don and the Age of Legends, not just in terms of the Dark One but also the rediscovery of old strengths and Talents, old weaves and ter'angreal -- they should have done something amazing to rival those days (apart from Perrin's hammer and the cleansing of saidin). I think power-forged weapons should have entered the game a lot earlier, like four-five books earlier. The point about strength in the One Power was good. You could have Asha'man unable to so much as explode a small mole hill but really skilled with crafting tools with special properties, even if they could only do it in a circle. All the greatest feats in the Age of Legends were done with circles, right?

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Elayne should not be in love with Rand. It makes no sense. I'd love to have seen her realize she was a lesbian but took Rand as a lover to secure a daughter. You know, political reasons. Then she and Egwene were in love. It would solve so many problems.

Good idea, it would eliminate the two worst romances in the series in one stroke. ;)

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I've always thought that it would have been dramatically better if Perrin had given up on the ax after using it to kill Aram when Aram attacked him. The torture scene could just have been cut out, and it think it would have been dramatically and symbolically better for him, because he tried to change Aram when he was in axmode in TR, but he ended up destroying him with the ax, because you can't create with the ax, you can only destroy but the hammer blah blah blah. I think that as interesting as the torture was, killing Aram would have been an even lower point for him. It really annoys me because it would have been so easy for RJ to do it that way, but he didn't.

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It would've been more believable if Rand manages to make the three woman in love with him, but the three women hate each other's guts. I have known friends who had mistresses, never have I met a mistress and wife who did not try to tear each other's hair out.

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It would've been more believable if Rand manages to make the three woman in love with him, but the three women hate each other's guts. I have known friends who had mistresses, never have I met a mistress and wife who did not try to tear each other's hair out.

 

Depends on if the mistress and wife knew of each other or not :wink:

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I do not understand Elayne's love for Rand..she hardly spends any time with him, and does not know him at all and she is madly in love with him?

Atleast Avi and Min have spent loads of time with him and are with him through really trying times.

Edited by XXX47
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I do not understand Elayne's love for Rand..she hardly spends any time with him, and does not know him at all and she is madly in love with him?

Atleast Avi and Min have spent loads of time with him and are with him through really trying times.

 

 

QFT. Seems to be kind of a problem for WoT in general though, the word love is used more than tempest in tGS :p

 

I get the attraction between Rand and Aviendha, if not wanting to go far enough to name it love. Min and Rand I think can really, really love each other; they have had quite some time together, but more importantly they have gone through very much together. Nynaeve and Lan.. I just don't really get it. Bryne and Siuan might be falling in love, but Egwene and Gawyn? Jeesh.

 

My problem isn't that people fall in love, that happens. But in WoT, once someone sees someone they believe have well-turned calves or whatever then all of a sudden they love them as much as they would had they been married for twenty years.

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I'd have liked to see better Aes Sedai past book 3. Moiraine set such a high bar in general starting with TEoTW. She was driven, passionate, intelligence, wisdom, and educated in her world. The next two major AS we get a good dose of are also similar in Verin and Suain. Even Elaida, early on gave an air of knowledge, power, and menace -even her reason for being in (the foretelling about the royal line of Andor and the TG). All of them gave of an air of power that should be respected.

 

However, as the series went along it seemed like everyone except Moiriane and Verin became less and less reasonable and more and more incompetent. Other than the strong first impression that Egwene got of Moiraine I don't see why she wanted to be AS so much. Especially after she spends more time with the Wise Ones and finds their general way of doing things to be better than the squabbling and politics of the tower.

 

Even Cadsuane... could you imagine how much easier she would have had it if she was less of a prick to Rand. You'd think that after nearly 300 years that she'd have the wisdom to show some kindness to Rand (regardless that he's the Dragon Reborn) after knowing that he'd just been stuffed in a box and beaten by Aes Sedai for the better part of two weeks... but her plan is to teach him manners, laughter, and tears is to antagonize him.

 

As I've gone through the series I've gone through being somewhat in awe of Aes Sedai from Moiraine to loathing them.

 

The other big thing that bugged me was how Egwene changed her opinion of Rand so quickly and the two stopped talking in TSR. Yes, they were both busy but they also had a lot of nothing time traveling around in the waste where I'm sure they could have talked and understood each other. Even the Wise Ones always showed Rand respect, but not Egwene.

 

Outside of that, I think that the general lack of communication between the characters is frustrating. The main protagonists are all smart characters and I don't know that I believe that they would fail to communicate so much once new ways of communicating became available (TAR). They all adapted really fast to gateways, why not communication? You'd think that Rand would ask Egwene and the Wise Ones to use their dreaming talents for that reason beyond the one time he asked the Wise Ones to do it in TSR to call the clans for the meeting.

 

Ok... that's my rant. You'd think with all that that I'd hate the series but I also appreciate that a lot of it had to be the way it was for RJ to tell the story he wanted to tell.

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I'd have liked to see better Aes Sedai past book 3. Moiraine set such a high bar in general starting with TEoTW. She was driven, passionate, intelligence, wisdom, and educated in her world. The next two major AS we get a good dose of are also similar in Verin and Suain. Even Elaida, early on gave an air of knowledge, power, and menace -even her reason for being in (the foretelling about the royal line of Andor and the TG). All of them gave of an air of power that should be respected.

 

However, as the series went along it seemed like everyone except Moiriane and Verin became less and less reasonable and more and more incompetent. Other than the strong first impression that Egwene got of Moiraine I don't see why she wanted to be AS so much. Especially after she spends more time with the Wise Ones and finds their general way of doing things to be better than the squabbling and politics of the tower.

 

In the beginning, you were supposed to see Aes Sedai as this all powerful group who had strings tied to every action in the world. As time progressed, you were supposed to realize that they were just people like everyone else. Then you saw that they had bought into their own hype of being master manipulators and that their way was the right way. That is for the Aes Sedai as a group, mind you. Egwene, once she decided that she was going to be AS, never turned from that idea. Even when she was a WO apprentice, she behaved as she thought that AS should behave. Having observed the WO's and becoming Amyrlin, she has "plans" for the structure of the White Tower.

-----------------

 

As far as the Rand/Elayne relationship, I agree with pretty much everyone else. Except as a political marriage, it has no merits and could have easily become Avi and Min becoming 1st Sisters instead and wedding Rand. But RJ needed the imagery of the 3 on the boat so had to have that 3rd.

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For me, the Shadow as a whole has been handled poorly. According to interviews with RJ, at this point we're to feel like the side of the Light is up against the ropes and looks to be going down for the count. Really? I haven't felt a sense of menace or dread in over 8 books.

 

When you analyze the situation (and we've done it a number of times over the years), you realize how much trouble the Light is in.

 

The problem is that the main characters are rarely in any position of danger, and even when they are, you know they'll escape due to prophecy. If the characters you connect to are never in any danger, there's no reason to feel menace or dread, despite the horrific things that have been happening to the general population.

 

So it's not so much the Shadow, but the effect the Shadow has on the main characters, or lack thereof.

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For me, the Shadow as a whole has been handled poorly. According to interviews with RJ, at this point we're to feel like the side of the Light is up against the ropes and looks to be going down for the count. Really? I haven't felt a sense of menace or dread in over 8 books.

 

When you analyze the situation (and we've done it a number of times over the years), you realize how much trouble the Light is in.

 

The problem is that the main characters are rarely in any position of danger, and even when they are, you know they'll escape due to prophecy. If the characters you connect to are never in any danger, there's no reason to feel menace or dread, despite the horrific things that have been happening to the general population.

 

So it's not so much the Shadow, but the effect the Shadow has on the main characters, or lack thereof.

 

Can you point me to a couple of those threads about the Lights troubles. I'd love to read them.

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I do not understand Elayne's love for Rand..she hardly spends any time with him, and does not know him at all and she is madly in love with him?

Atleast Avi and Min have spent loads of time with him and are with him through really trying times.

 

 

QFT. Seems to be kind of a problem for WoT in general though, the word love is used more than tempest in tGS :p

 

I get the attraction between Rand and Aviendha, if not wanting to go far enough to name it love. Min and Rand I think can really, really love each other; they have had quite some time together, but more importantly they have gone through very much together. Nynaeve and Lan.. I just don't really get it. Bryne and Siuan might be falling in love, but Egwene and Gawyn? Jeesh.

 

My problem isn't that people fall in love, that happens. But in WoT, once someone sees someone they believe have well-turned calves or whatever then all of a sudden they love them as much as they would had they been married for twenty years.

 

Even leaving the unbelievable aspect of the "love"...Rand comes across like a douche bag. He is kissing Elayne,sleeping with Avi then sleeping with Min..WTF have some self control man.

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robert jordan was blowing smoke when he said the lihgt was in trouble. what trouble?

 

i feel sorry for the bad guys. They have become irrelevant cartoon villains.

 

The story should have went like this,

 

nynaeve kidnapped by padan fain asking for info about rand. nynaeve volunteers after suffering at the hands of the mad man. he kills off her laughing as he does it.

 

egwene. so she's now the leader of the aes sedai eh. well elaida was useless. i know off a way to change this. Gateway to her room. shield her. take her to safe location and turn her to the shadow.

 

perrin. i wont even bother with this insignificant fool

 

mat: thinks he's good. kicked both gawyn and galad's ass. how bout you go one on one against a fade. a superfade. step into the ring mr shaidar haran. pluck both his eyes out and eat the trickster's liver for breakfast.

 

sent rand a bad filled with heads of min and aviendha. with the promise that if he does not gateway to shayol ghul, the queen of andor will meet a most unplesant fate.

 

plenty of things can be done to story. instead i am kinda bord with the whole thing now

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I do not understand Elayne's love for Rand..she hardly spends any time with him, and does not know him at all and she is madly in love with him?

Atleast Avi and Min have spent loads of time with him and are with him through really trying times.

 

 

QFT. Seems to be kind of a problem for WoT in general though, the word love is used more than tempest in tGS :p

 

I get the attraction between Rand and Aviendha, if not wanting to go far enough to name it love. Min and Rand I think can really, really love each other; they have had quite some time together, but more importantly they have gone through very much together. Nynaeve and Lan.. I just don't really get it. Bryne and Siuan might be falling in love, but Egwene and Gawyn? Jeesh.

 

My problem isn't that people fall in love, that happens. But in WoT, once someone sees someone they believe have well-turned calves or whatever then all of a sudden they love them as much as they would had they been married for twenty years.

 

Even leaving the unbelievable aspect of the "love"...Rand comes across like a douche bag. He is kissing Elayne,sleeping with Avi then sleeping with Min..WTF have some self control man.

 

He kissed Elayne, who later sent him a letter described as "cold as ice" breaking things off.

 

He slept with Avi, who told him it would never happen again, and that he belonged to another.

 

And then he fell in love with Min.

 

So what's wrong with that? I don't see anything particularly caddish.

 

As for self control, between the ages of 18 and 21 (roughly Rand's ages in the book) I slept with far more than 3 women, but still not as many as I wanted to.

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The one plot I did not like and really thought was out of character (at least in how it ended up) was Aram's. Aram being convinced by Masema that Perrin is a Darkfriend? WtF? I'm rereading KoD right now and I am hoping that on my first read-through I simply missed the signs. I totally did not see this coming and thought it was absolutely out of character for Aram to turn on Perrin. The boy had latched onto Perrin like a dog to his master (okay, that's rather funny when you consider the context). The only thing that I would think might (MIGHT, I say) have turned Aram was that supposed "dalliance" between Perrin and Berelain after Faile was captured. Maybe he saw that as an act of betrayal on Perrin's part (the king gets knocked off the pedastal Aram had sat him on). Still...

 

I always thought that he was put under compulsion, just like Masema was.

Edited by aaron11
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robert jordan was blowing smoke when he said the lihgt was in trouble. what trouble?

 

i feel sorry for the bad guys. They have become irrelevant cartoon villains.

 

The story should have went like this,

 

nynaeve kidnapped by padan fain asking for info about rand. nynaeve volunteers after suffering at the hands of the mad man. he kills off her laughing as he does it.

 

egwene. so she's now the leader of the aes sedai eh. well elaida was useless. i know off a way to change this. Gateway to her room. shield her. take her to safe location and turn her to the shadow.

 

perrin. i wont even bother with this insignificant fool

 

mat: thinks he's good. kicked both gawyn and galad's ass. how bout you go one on one against a fade. a superfade. step into the ring mr shaidar haran. pluck both his eyes out and eat the trickster's liver for breakfast.

 

sent rand a bad filled with heads of min and aviendha. with the promise that if he does not gateway to shayol ghul, the queen of andor will meet a most unplesant fate.

 

plenty of things can be done to story. instead i am kinda bord with the whole thing now

 

I do not know why you even bother reading the Wheel of Time.

When was the last time you posted something good and positive about the WOT series or Robert Jordan?

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Here would be a couple of interesting scenarios.

 

1.) Lanfear was one of the three girls that Rand fell in love with (Instead of Elayne). Initially she wanted to use him for power, but as the series goes on, she truely does fall in love with him. When Rand finds out, this is what nearly pushes him to surrender to the Dark One. Lanfear convinces him not to.

 

2.) Someone else said this a while back, but having Perrin go over to the Dark side to save Faile would have been kind of cool.

 

3.) Egwene getting killed by Mesaana. I'm not an Egwene hater. I just think having arguably one of the most powerful characters in the series killed off by a forsaken would have made them seem a little more dangerous approaching the final battle.

 

4.) Asmodean lives. Later in the series, Rand and company find a way to convert people back to the light. Asmodean is converted and figures out the song. He lives happily ever after with the Tinkers.

 

6.) The ability to make waygates didn't even exist. I can understand the reason (why Robert Jordan invented this), but something just doesn't feel right anymore. The journeys used to be a cool part of the story (at least in my opinion).

 

5.) The page numbers are in completely random order.

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I do not understand Elayne's love for Rand..she hardly spends any time with him, and does not know him at all and she is madly in love with him?

Atleast Avi and Min have spent loads of time with him and are with him through really trying times.

 

 

QFT. Seems to be kind of a problem for WoT in general though, the word love is used more than tempest in tGS :p

 

I get the attraction between Rand and Aviendha, if not wanting to go far enough to name it love. Min and Rand I think can really, really love each other; they have had quite some time together, but more importantly they have gone through very much together. Nynaeve and Lan.. I just don't really get it. Bryne and Siuan might be falling in love, but Egwene and Gawyn? Jeesh.

 

My problem isn't that people fall in love, that happens. But in WoT, once someone sees someone they believe have well-turned calves or whatever then all of a sudden they love them as much as they would had they been married for twenty years.

 

Even leaving the unbelievable aspect of the "love"...Rand comes across like a douche bag. He is kissing Elayne,sleeping with Avi then sleeping with Min..WTF have some self control man.

 

He kissed Elayne, who later sent him a letter described as "cold as ice" breaking things off.

 

He slept with Avi, who told him it would never happen again, and that he belonged to another.

 

And then he fell in love with Min.

 

So what's wrong with that? I don't see anything particularly caddish.

 

As for self control, between the ages of 18 and 21 (roughly Rand's ages in the book) I slept with far more than 3 women, but still not as many as I wanted to.

 

 

Sleeping with them is one thing..But Rand thinks that he loves Elayne but still sleeps with Avi. He thinks he loves Avi also but still sleeps with Min. That is awful.

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I do not understand Elayne's love for Rand..she hardly spends any time with him, and does not know him at all and she is madly in love with him?

Atleast Avi and Min have spent loads of time with him and are with him through really trying times.

 

 

QFT. Seems to be kind of a problem for WoT in general though, the word love is used more than tempest in tGS :p

 

I get the attraction between Rand and Aviendha, if not wanting to go far enough to name it love. Min and Rand I think can really, really love each other; they have had quite some time together, but more importantly they have gone through very much together. Nynaeve and Lan.. I just don't really get it. Bryne and Siuan might be falling in love, but Egwene and Gawyn? Jeesh.

 

My problem isn't that people fall in love, that happens. But in WoT, once someone sees someone they believe have well-turned calves or whatever then all of a sudden they love them as much as they would had they been married for twenty years.

 

Even leaving the unbelievable aspect of the "love"...Rand comes across like a douche bag. He is kissing Elayne,sleeping with Avi then sleeping with Min..WTF have some self control man.

 

He kissed Elayne, who later sent him a letter described as "cold as ice" breaking things off.

 

He slept with Avi, who told him it would never happen again, and that he belonged to another.

 

And then he fell in love with Min.

 

So what's wrong with that? I don't see anything particularly caddish.

 

As for self control, between the ages of 18 and 21 (roughly Rand's ages in the book) I slept with far more than 3 women, but still not as many as I wanted to.

 

 

Sleeping with them is one thing..But Rand thinks that he loves Elayne but still sleeps with Avi. He thinks he loves Avi also but still sleeps with Min. That is awful.

 

So... he loves all three and wants to sleep with all three. The four of them agreed so I don´t see any problem with it.

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Sleeping with them is one thing..But Rand thinks that he loves Elayne but still sleeps with Avi. He thinks he loves Avi also but still sleeps with Min. That is awful.

 

I'm going to blow your mind here: it's possible to love more than one person at once.

 

And, as Logain's Pet pointed out, the three girls are totally cool with it.

Edited by Hybrid
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