White Tower vs Hall of Servents

[Dagon Thyne]

I want to see what everyone thinks of the differences and simularities between the modern Aes Sedai and the ones from the AoL.

 

From what I have read, in RJ's blogs and other credible sources, the Hall of Servants were not a political group, as the White Tower is. In fact, prior to the drilling of the Bore, and the War of Power, they had no actually controll of the politics and leadership of the world. The Hall of Servants was ran more like a guild than anything. They passed laws to regulate the use of the One Power, and tried, and sentenced those who abused it. Most members of the Hall had normal, regular jobs, only coming together when there was need of their powers. All channelors were considered members in good standing, unless they were found guilty of abusing the One Power, in which case, they were Severed.

 

 

The White Tower, on the other hand, beleives that the world could not function without their interference. They tend to beleive that no monarch has the right to rule without the consent of the Tower, and that Aes Sedai are owed respect, simply for being Aes Sedai and that they are above and better other people. This is a big changed from AoL, where it was generally accepted that the One POwer existed solely to be used to help people and that Aes Sedai were owed nothing but thanks for their work to improve the quality of life. Look at the chapters who who take the point views of White Tower Aes Sedai. For the most part, they are stuck up, beleiving themselves to be the only people who can keep civilization intact. They have been known to murder rules in order to place puppet leaders on thrones. And they tend to beleive that they have sole ownership of the One Power, again, deviating from the AoL beleive that the OP belonged to everyone, and that Aes Sedai should exist only yo serve mankind. Look at how they treat non White Tower channelors. The fact is that many of the things that the White Tower deem impossible to do with the OP, can be done by other groups, from untying weaves, which the Aiel Wise Ones have mastered anbd taught for generations, but the White Tower claims is so dangerous that anyone who attempts it should be severed immediately, to healing severing, maddness...Both of which were discovered by a wilder, Nynaeve. I dare say if Nynaeve had not come to the White Tower, the Tower would have lead the world straight to the Dark ONe's victory at the Last Battle. But there will always be people in the Tower who despise Nynaeve and anyone else who were able to channel with training from the Tower.

[solarz]

In case you haven't noticed, Randland is a "post-apocalyptic" world. Think of it like this: in a peaceful civilization, like ours, there are legal systems and people resolve their differences through peaceful means. Now think of movies like "the Book of Eli". In a post-apocalyptic world, the people with the biggest guns rule. And the Aes Sedai are the ones with the biggest guns in Randland.

 

We think of the Age of Legends as a Utopia, but only because we're looking at it through tinted lenses. If you think about it, there are many disturbing things about AoL:

 

- Why are the Aiel always servants of the Aes Sedai?

- Who created the Nym, and for what purpose, initially? They are obviously sentient beings, but has anyone asked *them* whether they want to do anything else other than growing crops?

- Where did the Ogier come from? Where they all farmers? Were they barred from positions of power?

[WMBunt]

It's a good question, but not really a fair question. It's much more complicated than that and mainly because you're comparing two institutions in two truly different worlds. The current White Tower is in a world that has emerged from lands that had been devastated by death and destruction. What you see now is three thousand years of an organization that emerged in a time when there was a power vacuum following the Breaking.

 

Half of the Hall of Servants was ripped away due to the taint. The entire landscape of the world had changed. You see an attitude in the current WT that reflects the fact that, for all intents and purposes, they arguably WERE the ultimate power in humanity that held things together and guided the remaining nations and emerging rulers. They did it (perhaps wrongly so it could be argued) simply because they had the obligation to (in their minds) simply because they had that responsibility. The regular folks couldn't come close to handling the threat of men who could channel. It's a natural progression. What's probably miraculous is that in all of that time, the WT didn't become an organization completely bent on world domination to the point of usurping all sovereignty and claiming all the land for their own. Perhaps that provides a greater insight into the "why" of the WT being where it is and "why" of the Three Oaths and things like that.

 

The Breaking changed the world for everyone. The Hall of Servants couldn't pragmatically exist post-Breaking. Not in its previous incarnation. Ironically, we see the most powerful abusers and abuses of the OP come from AS in the AoL Hall of Servants and not in the post-Breaking White Tower. Reasons for that could be argued many different ways, but ultimately, it's the ones who are from a "more enlightened" period who had members who committed the greater atrocities and shunned their role as servants more egregiously than the ones in the current incarnation of the White Tower.

 

Perhaps some things aren't as different from the previous Age as we would like to think? Something to ponder anyway.

[Majsju]

Comparing the two is like comparing the government in Sweden with the government in Somalia, and then wondering what the differences are.

[Suttree]

Rather absurd question overall, the point of the story is that the whole world has "fallen" due to the Shadow's influence. It is such a vastly diff place that there is little point in comparing the two.

[David Selig]

AoL society is a totally implausible utopia, comparing it with the fairly realistic societies currently in Randland is pointless.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

I am tired with all the Anti-Egwnene/Anti-Aes Sedai threads that are popping up all over the place trying to nullify or diminish everything that they have done over the last few thousand years since the Breaking. They have made mistakes, sure, especially recently when they have become complacent in their power, but you still have to admit that in the current situation they are still a force to be reckoned with, even with the Dragon around. If you want to discuss this sort of stuff, keep it to one thread please.

[XXX]

I am tired with all the Anti-Egwnene/Anti-Aes Sedai threads that are popping up all over the place trying to nullify or diminish everything that they have done over the last few thousand years since the Breaking. They have made mistakes, sure, especially recently when they have become complacent in their power, but you still have to admit that in the current situation they are still a force to be reckoned with, even with the Dragon around. If you want to discuss this sort of stuff, keep it to one thread please.

 

 

Correct they are "a force" not "the force" as they were at the beginning of the books. Now if only Egwene would acknowledge that...

[SheaththeSword]

Surely the point of this thread is to compare and contrast these two channeling groups, as we would do between wise ones, sea folk and current aes sedai, rather than ask how could they possibly have changed so much, or how could it have come to this. The discussion should focus on the pros and cons of the two groups, both for the world at large and the development/preservation of weaves.

 

Of course, there is so little info on the Hall of Servants that this is very difficult to do...

 

Does anyone know if all people of the time who were found to channel were 'conscripted' to the Hall (much as modern AS are)? Otherwise, how could they regulate use of the power and stop abuses, as it 'belonged to everyone.

Did the First among Servants have authority over other channels, and if so how much?

How were the making, keeping and use of (sa')angreal and ter'angreal regulated, in such a loose grouping of channelers?

 

Since we are pretty certain the oath rod (and other similar rods) were used to bind criminal of the AoL from repeating their crimes, and the ageless face gave them away as someone who had been bound, did that mean the Hall of Servants were involved in administering justice as an executive body? Or did they simply find someone suitably qualified among the police/judiciary of the AoL to channel into the rods to carry out the binding?

 

If the HoS had executive powers, then they may have had far more political/policing power than we expect.

[solarz]

Since we are pretty certain the oath rod (and other similar rods) were used to bind criminal of the AoL from repeating their crimes, and the ageless face gave them away as someone who had been bound, did that mean the Hall of Servants were involved in administering justice as an executive body? Or did they simply find someone suitably qualified among the police/judiciary of the AoL to channel into the rods to carry out the binding?

 

The Tamyrlin "summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion", which very likely are the present-day oath rods. Therefore, I would imagine that the AoL Aes Sedai policed itself.

 

I don't know where the OP got the idea that the AoL AS were run like a "guild". They've always seemed to be a benevolent dictatorship to me.

[MasterAblar]

Since we are pretty certain the oath rod (and other similar rods) were used to bind criminal of the AoL from repeating their crimes, and the ageless face gave them away as someone who had been bound, did that mean the Hall of Servants were involved in administering justice as an executive body? Or did they simply find someone suitably qualified among the police/judiciary of the AoL to channel into the rods to carry out the binding?

 

The Tamyrlin "summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion", which very likely are the present-day oath rods. Therefore, I would imagine that the AoL Aes Sedai policed itself.

 

I don't know where the OP got the idea that the AoL AS were run like a "guild". They've always seemed to be a benevolent dictatorship to me.

 

The 9 rods of dominion were actual people, not oath rods.

[WhiskyJack]

^^They were the leader of humanity, those 9 people?

[solarz]

The 9 rods of dominion were actual people, not oath rods.

 

First time I've heard of this. I did a little googling and came up with this:

 

http://archive.tarvalon.net/forums-corrupt/viewtopic.php?t=44762&sid=68dadc804aa830e1d6cb88657fa7617a

 

Question Part 1: I have a question about the nine rods of dominion. We have a couple of references to this, and Ishamael says that Lews Therin summoned the nine rods of dominion. And theories have been floating around, are the oath rods not the nine rods of dominion.

 

Jordan: They were not the oath rods.

 

Question Part 2: Well are they positions of power, were they people, or were they actual rods.

 

Jordan: They were actual people, and they were, but you might call them regional governors of the earth, regional governors of the planet. So if I say, summon them, then we’ve got a guy who has been given in effect ultimate power.

 

This says pretty clearly that LTT was the ultimate power in the world.

 

Still, that's a pretty lame title... :)

[Apple13]

The 9 rods of dominion were actual people, not oath rods.

 

First time I've heard of this. I did a little googling and came up with this:

 

http://archive.tarvalon.net/forums-corrupt/viewtopic.php?t=44762&sid=68dadc804aa830e1d6cb88657fa7617a

 

Question Part 1: I have a question about the nine rods of dominion. We have a couple of references to this, and Ishamael says that Lews Therin summoned the nine rods of dominion. And theories have been floating around, are the oath rods not the nine rods of dominion.

 

Jordan: They were not the oath rods.

 

Question Part 2: Well are they positions of power, were they people, or were they actual rods.

 

Jordan: They were actual people, and they were, but you might call them regional governors of the earth, regional governors of the planet. So if I say, summon them, then we’ve got a guy who has been given in effect ultimate power.

 

This says pretty clearly that LTT was the ultimate power in the world.

 

Still, that's a pretty lame title... :)

 

That seems in a sense, scarier than the White Tower's place in the current Age Randland. There were actually 9 people with absolute power? At least the White Tower's power is not absolute...

[XXX]

I wonder how much LTT's power was absolute considering that he could not get the other AS to follow his plan. If he was an absolute ruler,he could have ordered them.

[solarz]

I wonder how much LTT's power was absolute considering that he could not get the other AS to follow his plan. If he was an absolute ruler,he could have ordered them.

 

It doesn't matter whether LTT's power was absolute among the Servants, it's still pretty clear that the Aes Sedai ruled the world.

[Puny]

And since.. what is the percentage of people channeling, 2%... then basically 2% of the world´s population are ruling the entire planet. We really don´t know much about the AoL and how the Aes Sedai ruled. I don´t think they were all bad since the things that the Forsaken did were considered awful and they had binders to punish criminals. On the other hand the Aes Sedai had other jobs besides being in the Hall so they had to care of how they ruled...

 

I´m confused. On the other hand they are more like an organization for people that can channel, and they rule that body, and the rest of humanity has other leaders but then it says LTT could summon the 9 rods. Maybe they were the 9 rods controlling the Aes Sedai and not the entire world.?

[Dagon Thyne]

I neverid that the Aes Sedai are not important in Randland...I said that they tend to be stuck up about it and beleive that they are better than everyone else. They could do their job without the need to belittle people who are not trained by the Tower, and they really have no rignht to EVER interfere in the world's politics, unless a leader is doing something that can hurt the world. They bhave been know to kidna girls who they sense are powerful and have even murdered people in order to do so.

 

From the point of view of many Aes Sedai. I would dare say that there are plenty who care only for the rotection of the White Tower, and would let the world burn to protect it.

[Thor]

In case you haven't noticed, Randland is a "post-apocalyptic" world. Think of it like this: in a peaceful civilization, like ours, there are legal systems and people resolve their differences through peaceful means. Now think of movies like "the Book of Eli". In a post-apocalyptic world, the people with the biggest guns rule. And the Aes Sedai are the ones with the biggest guns in Randland.

 

We think of the Age of Legends as a Utopia, but only because we're looking at it through tinted lenses. If you think about it, there are many disturbing things about AoL:

 

- Why are the Aiel always servants of the Aes Sedai?

- Who created the Nym, and for what purpose, initially? They are obviously sentient beings, but has anyone asked *them* whether they want to do anything else other than growing crops?

- Where did the Ogier come from? Where they all farmers? Were they barred from positions of power?

 

The Aiel had great respect from the normal people. The fact that they serve the Servants gave them far more honour than most people could ever dream of. The normal Aes Sedai weren't even respected as much, take Mierin for example whom nobody would even care about if she didn't become Forsaken.

[icspots]

They have been know to kidnap girls who they sense are powerful and have even murdered people in order to do so.

 

Ummmm. When did we see a POV comment about Aes Sedai murdering people in order to take a girl for training?

 

...from untying weaves' date=' which the Aiel Wise Ones have mastered anbd taught for generations, but the White Tower claims is so dangerous that anyone who attempts it should be severed immediately[/quote']

 

I don't believe they ever said that someone who'd tried to unravel a weave should be severed immediately. After Aviendha unravels her gateway to the Kin's farm Merilille goes off on her to chastise her, however at no point is severing brought up.

 

I can't tell if you actually think these things are true or if you're just letting hyperbole creep into your arguments.

[SheaththeSword]

If LTT (let's not assume all Tamarylin could) can summon the Nine Rods of Dominion (haha freaked to be one of the 'Rods' xD), perhaps it is because he had their respect, and they listened to him as world leaders listen might listen to the Dalai Lama or the Pope (as he currently stands, i don't mean in reference to the historical power that church held).

He was a wise man and among his own people, very powerful. Kinda like a religous leader is (expected) to be. Except AFAWK there were no other political bodies (though I know the DL is political - not what i'm talking about) of the same stature during the AoL, so he would have had far more respect and sway over the Rods (if there were some of their memory would surely have survived the Breaking).