Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[WhiskyJack]

 

From the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna to Arjuna

 

"yada yada hi dharmasya

glanir bhavati bharata

abhyutthanam adharmasya

tadatmanam srjamy aham"

 

Translation

 

Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion — at that time I descend Myself.

 

 

Sounds similar to how the creator generates a champion to correct/save the pattern at different ages?

 

 

First of all, it's not a champion. Second, it said whenever, not the turning of age or every turning of age. Arrival of god doesn't signify the end or beginning of an age. Third, there is no thread to any pattern itself. The enemy is not super divine villain.

[WhiskyJack]

"Do they really?"

 

Rand=LTT is kill, because after book 12, he received all of LTT's memories

Memory and skill are not the same thing - one could remember being really good at something, but not be really good at it anymore. Therefore the rest of your argument falls apart. Rand might not have LTT's skill, so even if LTT is more skilled than Egwene it doesn't mean Rand is. So you have presented no evidence Rand is more skilled than Egwene. Egwene's skill in relation to Nynaeve would only be important if you were demonstrating that Rand (not LTT, Rand) was more skilled than Nynaeve.

If the Dragon Reborn turned to the Shadow, Pattern and the world would be destroyed (see end of book 12).

See start of book 8 - Sha'rah. If the Dragon turns the Light can still win by only leaving him moves that benefit them. Likewise the Shadow can win without turning Rand.

 

 

Rand has smashed forsaken after forsaken with the OP. Egwene managed to beat one of them in TAR(no OP use there). He uses so many weaves in Maradon that on his own he smashed tens of thousands of shadowspawn. Where exactly has Egwene shown evidence that she is a better fighter than him?

 

Oh I agree she knows better how to make a shiny metal...

 

 

Book 1: Aginor kills himself.

Book 3: Rand acquires callandor and basically stabs Ishmael.

Book 5: Rahvin is balefired (Thank you Nynaeve). Rand has an angreal.

Book 7: Sammael is killed by Mashadar

Book 12: Semirhage is balefired. Ara'gar is balefired

 

 

I concur. Awesome display of "strength" and "skill";)

 

 

Ofcourse I don't believe Eqwene is better but I am saying...

[WhiskyJack]

Trust them no...expect them to kidnap him, I don't think so. But then he learnt how stupid the AS could be after that.

How were the Aes Sedai stupid? Their plan was very, very smart. Rand did not expect it at all. The only reason Rand is not in Tar Valon was due to the Shaido.

 

The Ash'aman would have got to Rand sooner rather than later as they were using travelling to search for him. And the AS could not have won against them.

 

Even if they got him to the tower..the "all knowing" AS would have destroyed the world as Rand would not be able to fight the DO.How is that smart?

 

 

Well they are as stupid as Rand then!

[randsc]

Trust them no...expect them to kidnap him, I don't think so. But then he learnt how stupid the AS could be after that.

How were the Aes Sedai stupid? Their plan was very, very smart. Rand did not expect it at all. The only reason Rand is not in Tar Valon was due to the Shaido.

Sure he would have likely gotten to the Tower, but then what? what would they do to try to MAKE him do what they want? Cause its quite likely he would have gone absolutely anti-AS and possibly even turned to the DO; and that's ignoring going crazy, the possibility of his taveren powers running rampant or an assault on the tower by the then armies of dragonsworn including the Ashaman, Aiel etc.

....He would then be at Mesaana and the Shadow's mercy.

 

So it was their plan to place the Dragon Reborn at the mercy of the Shadow? Ah, OK. In that case, their plan was indeed brilliant.

 

Face it, their plan was, at best, insufficiently thought out.

 

1. Capture Dragon. Place in box.

2. ????????

3. Profit!

[Himiko]

For the talk of Egwene becoming the "Commander" of the forces of the Light:

 

There is some merit in the idea. At some point, Rand is going to have to go and battle the Dark One, and someone is going to have to step up into his place as leader.

 

However, to do this, it makes sense that the commander that takes over from Rand MUST have close to universal support, and importantly, MUST have military knowledge. Rand can plan all he wants, but once he isn't there, whoever is in charge needs to be someone (or someones) who can change tactics if necessary, who will know where to deploy troops and how best to deploy them effectively. Egwene simply isn't that person. She has shown political savvy, but no military expertise, beyond handing control of her troops to someone who knows what they're doing. Perhaps some of the Great Generals- Bryne, Bashere, etc. would be better choices. They are well known, their military ability is trusted.

 

As for a "figurehead" that people will rally to, and fight for, and has universal "appeal" (perhaps the wrong word), Rand is still that person. If the troops join up to fight for the Dragon Reborn, then they will continue to fight for the Dragon Reborn. What is more likely to reassure the troops is a strong commander who knows what they're about in this kind of fight. Not by holding up another figure they're supposed to rally to when they already have one, especially as the Amyrlin Seat will not necessarily provoke loyalty in everyone that might otherwise be loyal to Rand. The Seanchan, for example, will not let themselves be commanded by Egwene. They might end up tied to Rand and fighting alongside the AS, but being commanded by them? No. Similarly, whilst the Whitecloaks know they must fight alongside AS in the Last Battle, and whilst they are tied to Perrin, their attitude is still one of distrust. They fight for Rand, and for the forces of the Light, but trying to make them fight for Egwene? Not the soundest strategy I've ever heard. Tear's also pretty anti-AS, if I recall correctly?

 

Mat and Perrin would seem to be more logical choices. Both are experienced in battle, now. Both have ties to Rand himself. Both have ties to the Seanchan- Perrin through his former alliance, Mat through marriage. Perrin has ties to the Whitecloaks, to Andor, to Saldaea, to Mayene and to Ghaeldan (probably spelt that wrong, ah well) just through his current forces, as well having Wise Ones, AS and Asha'man, who might vouch for him to their affiliated channeling organisation. Should Rand choose either to lead, then, as the Borderland rulers are swearing to him, they shouldn't have an issue with their leadership, or no more than that of Egwene. Same with all other nations attached to Rand. Both have ties to Elayne- perhaps less than Egwene does, but even so, I would assume that Andor and Cairhien would follow them, should they be chosen as leaders. I'd say they have MORE universal appeal than Egwene, as they are not so hindered by those nations/ forces/ organisations that distrust channelers. In addition, from Rand's comments in ToM, it would seem Rand trusts them more, too.

 

I don't doubt Egwene will play an important role- perhaps she and Logain force the male and female channelers to work together, increasing their effectiveness? Perhaps she pulls out another sa'angreal and goes to town on destroying Trollocs and Fades, I don't know. But I don't see her as a military leader, and I don't see the need for her as a figurehead to unite over, when the DR fulfills this role. I will be disappointed if this role does go to Egwene when there are plenty of other characters who have more military experience, and are less likely to antagonise large groups of the army.

[jahnfriederik]

If you think about it, a circle of channelers aided by angreal or sa'angreal could easily have created balefire to destroy Graendel's mansion. That wouldn't make them more skilled or anything .. similarly, killing a Forsaken isn't proof of battle prowess. Anyone with sufficient power could create balefire; anyone with sufficient luck could throw it at an enemy channeler.

 

I mean it's a book, it's not rational to analyze it entirely like life. Every Two Rivers characters comes close to death about a thousand times and always just escapes. Nynaeve is more powerful than Egwene and she has more achievements to her name, but I think a lot of people underestimate the difficulty of what Egwene achieved with the White Tower.

 

Refusing to be rescued? Trying to heal the division of the Ajahs? The OP comes easily to channelers, especially powerful ones, and it's something they are born with (like people are born good looking or not). Egwene is a great character not because she turned half of a massive iron chain into callandor but because of what she has achieved politically.. among Nynaeve's greatest achievements are helping Cadsuane get Tam to Rand and rousing the Borderlands for Lan's cause. Cleansing the taint was an amazing act but that's mostly to Rand's credit, I think.

[Guest PiotrekS]

If you think about it, a circle of channelers aided by angreal or sa'angreal could easily have created balefire to destroy Graendel's mansion. That wouldn't make them more skilled or anything .. similarly, killing a Forsaken isn't proof of battle prowess. Anyone with sufficient power could create balefire; anyone with sufficient luck could throw it at an enemy channeler.

 

I mean it's a book, it's not rational to analyze it entirely like life. Every Two Rivers characters comes close to death about a thousand times and always just escapes. Nynaeve is more powerful than Egwene and she has more achievements to her name, but I think a lot of people underestimate the difficulty of what Egwene achieved with the White Tower.

 

Refusing to be rescued? Trying to heal the division of the Ajahs? The OP comes easily to channelers, especially powerful ones, and it's something they are born with (like people are born good looking or not). Egwene is a great character not because she turned half of a massive iron chain into callandor but because of what she has achieved politically.. among Nynaeve's greatest achievements are helping Cadsuane get Tam to Rand and rousing the Borderlands for Lan's cause. Cleansing the taint was an amazing act but that's mostly to Rand's credit, I think.

 

Cleansing the taint was not easy even for the channeler of Nynaeve's power - it required extreme endurance, strength of will, devotion and courage.

 

I would agree on Egwene's achievements if all the Aes Sedai hadn't somehow turned into idiots with Egwene's arrival. Moreover her achievements are only indirectly relevant for the larger world - she could be Aes Sedai's hero, but for all the other nations and groups she is just one element of a much bigger picture. When Rand was dealing with the Aiel, Tariens, Andorans, Cairhienin, Aes Sedai, Illianners, Domani, Saldeans and other borderlanders, Sanchean, the Sea Folk, the Forsaken, Asha'man, Fain...Egwene was sitting in the middle of Aes Sedai civil war. Her importance, although not small, is particular, not universal. She's a strong Amyrlin, not a strong world leader nor a person who this world sees as essential to its survival.

[jahnfriederik]

Maybe people underestimate the power of the White Tower because they never really seem to do much. The oaths were retroactively modified if I remember correctly so they can used the OP against both Darkfriends and Shadowspawn (as well as in protection etc).

 

So you actually have hundreds of channelers and at least dozens of angreal, all under Egwene's authority (to some extent). That will mean something come Tarmon Gai'don. Also now there are no darkfriends among them, which we can't quite say about the Black Tower...

[Ala Rubra]

"Do they really?"

 

Rand=LTT is kill, because after book 12, he received all of LTT's memories

Memory and skill are not the same thing - one could remember being really good at something, but not be really good at it anymore. Therefore the rest of your argument falls apart. Rand might not have LTT's skill, so even if LTT is more skilled than Egwene it doesn't mean Rand is. So you have presented no evidence Rand is more skilled than Egwene. Egwene's skill in relation to Nynaeve would only be important if you were demonstrating that Rand (not LTT, Rand) was more skilled than Nynaeve.

 

If we were talking about the real world, you would certainly have a valid point, but I'm not sure this holds for the WoT. After all, is Mat not an incredible warrior and general based only on the memories in his head? Can Rand not draw excellently because Lews could?

[Himiko]

Maybe people underestimate the power of the White Tower because they never really seem to do much. The oaths were retroactively modified if I remember correctly so they can used the OP against both Darkfriends and Shadowspawn (as well as in protection etc).

 

So you actually have hundreds of channelers and at least dozens of angreal, all under Egwene's authority (to some extent). That will mean something come Tarmon Gai'don. Also now there are no darkfriends among them, which we can't quite say about the Black Tower...

 

I think you could be correct with the first point here- the WT haven't seemed to do much, which, given that the Borderlands are being overrun, TG is on the doorstep and the world in general is changing (Seanchan presence in Randland, many countries making alliances, etc.), is not a point in their favour. Now, the AS are a large group of channelers, equipped with angreal, ter'angreal and sa'angreal, not to mention Tar Valon has its army. Of course this will mean something come TG, the more firepower the better, and with the message throughout the series that men and women accomplish the most when they work together, a prominent group of female channelers like the AS are likely going to play a major role in the battle.

 

However, that only answers the question: Is Egwene a powerful political leader? Yes, she is, I don't think many would disagree with that, though there is, as you've probably seen, debate on how powerful the WT is now compared to previously. Will the AS, along with the other channelers, play key roles at TG? Quite probably. There are, however, many factions on the side of the Light, various nations, organisations like the Whitecloaks, alliances, etc. Egwene's position as Amyrlin does not make her the single most vital person out of the group. And that she is politically powerful does not make her the equal of the Dragon. Of course, if Min's viewing from EotW, about sparks swirling around the group DOES pertain to the Last Battle, and their importance in it, then presumably Egwene and Rand are equally important- as are Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Thom, Moiraine and Lan. Its not just Rand and Egwene- or even just Egwene and the three ta'veren- that are equally important, either the whole group is important at TG, or the vision did not refer simply to TG. Probably doesn't make a lot of sense, but yeah...

[Himiko]

"Do they really?"

 

Rand=LTT is kill, because after book 12, he received all of LTT's memories

Memory and skill are not the same thing - one could remember being really good at something, but not be really good at it anymore. Therefore the rest of your argument falls apart. Rand might not have LTT's skill, so even if LTT is more skilled than Egwene it doesn't mean Rand is. So you have presented no evidence Rand is more skilled than Egwene. Egwene's skill in relation to Nynaeve would only be important if you were demonstrating that Rand (not LTT, Rand) was more skilled than Nynaeve.

 

If we were talking about the real world, you would certainly have a valid point, but I'm not sure this holds for the WoT. After all, is Mat not an incredible warrior and general based only on the memories in his head? Can Rand not draw excellently because Lews could?

 

Not to mention, when Balthamel is resurrected as Aran'gar, s/he uses saidin, not saidar, despite having a female body. I realise the cases are a little different, as the resurrection of Balthamel was not a rebirth in the same way as Rand is LTT reborn, but it does suggest that the spirit bears more importance than the body, at least in some cases. Rand is LTT reborn, he shares his memories, hears his voice in his head- he is in a different body, looks completely different except for his height, and has had his own life, yes, but the same soul/ spirit/ whatever you want to call it. I tend to assume Rand and LTT have at least similar skill levels.

[jahnfriederik]

Maybe people underestimate the power of the White Tower because they never really seem to do much. The oaths were retroactively modified if I remember correctly so they can used the OP against both Darkfriends and Shadowspawn (as well as in protection etc).

 

So you actually have hundreds of channelers and at least dozens of angreal, all under Egwene's authority (to some extent). That will mean something come Tarmon Gai'don. Also now there are no darkfriends among them, which we can't quite say about the Black Tower...

 

I think you could be correct with the first point here- the WT haven't seemed to do much, which, given that the Borderlands are being overrun, TG is on the doorstep and the world in general is changing (Seanchan presence in Randland, many countries making alliances, etc.), is not a point in their favour. Now, the AS are a large group of channelers, equipped with angreal, ter'angreal and sa'angreal, not to mention Tar Valon has its army. Of course this will mean something come TG, the more firepower the better, and with the message throughout the series that men and women accomplish the most when they work together, a prominent group of female channelers like the AS are likely going to play a major role in the battle.

 

However, that only answers the question: Is Egwene a powerful political leader? Yes, she is, I don't think many would disagree with that, though there is, as you've probably seen, debate on how powerful the WT is now compared to previously. Will the AS, along with the other channelers, play key roles at TG? Quite probably. There are, however, many factions on the side of the Light, various nations, organisations like the Whitecloaks, alliances, etc. Egwene's position as Amyrlin does not make her the single most vital person out of the group. And that she is politically powerful does not make her the equal of the Dragon. Of course, if Min's viewing from EotW, about sparks swirling around the group DOES pertain to the Last Battle, and their importance in it, then presumably Egwene and Rand are equally important- as are Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Thom, Moiraine and Lan. Its not just Rand and Egwene- or even just Egwene and the three ta'veren- that are equally important, either the whole group is important at TG, or the vision did not refer simply to TG. Probably doesn't make a lot of sense, but yeah...

 

Yeah tbh I think Egwene is much, much less important/powerful than Rand. Just sticking up for Egwene a bit ... I don't get why people hate her. She has Amrylin-obnoxiousness disease (no actual Amrylin has been tolerable, but Siuan's fine now), which is okay, and clearly she won't prevent Rand from breaking the Seals, so what are we worried about?

[Suttree]

The Dragon is NOT the champion of the light in every age.

 

That has never been confirmed either way...

 

Andrew_J_Parker Mon Apr 25

@BrandSanderson Can you settle a debate? Will Rand's soul be the Light's champion in every Age, or could it ever be someone else?

 

BrandSanderson Mon Apr 25

@Andrew_J_Parker I believe that Ishy implies in the books he and Lews Therin have fought thousands of times.

 

BrandSanderson Mon Apr 25

@Andrew_J_Parker So at least one major character seems to believe it's always Rand. Whether he's right or not is another question.

 

RJ is the one to answer that question which we will unfortunately never hear the answer to...however IMO as he has borrowed the concept from religions where a "champion" appears every time evil begins to raise it's head in an age, I will assume it is the same here to.

 

You are more than welcome to have an opinion, just don't state it as fact as you did earlier in the thread...

[WhiskyJack]

"Do they really?"

 

Rand=LTT is kill, because after book 12, he received all of LTT's memories

Memory and skill are not the same thing - one could remember being really good at something, but not be really good at it anymore. Therefore the rest of your argument falls apart. Rand might not have LTT's skill, so even if LTT is more skilled than Egwene it doesn't mean Rand is. So you have presented no evidence Rand is more skilled than Egwene. Egwene's skill in relation to Nynaeve would only be important if you were demonstrating that Rand (not LTT, Rand) was more skilled than Nynaeve.

 

If we were talking about the real world, you would certainly have a valid point, but I'm not sure this holds for the WoT. After all, is Mat not an incredible warrior and general based only on the memories in his head? Can Rand not draw excellently because Lews could?

 

 

I think he is good in fighting because he is good and a ta'veren. His memories don't help in individual fights. Memories can give you knowledge, but not the "skill". Rand is a bit different. he has acquired LTT's mannerism also. Definitely it's not some simple possession of memories like in case of Mat.

[sleepinghour]

I think he is good in fighting because he is good and a ta'veren. His memories don't help in individual fights. Memories can give you knowledge, but not the "skill".

Mat was always good with a quarterstaff, and has quick hands, but he got some help from the memories too. Knowledge can also be useful in a fight. Maybe Mat wouldn't automatically be a skilled swordsman just because some of those men were, but he might be able to recognize sword forms and predict how the enemy was going to move. And, as we see in KoD, know where to strike in order to cause the most damage as quickly as possible.

 

As men died, the others gained room, but Mat moved faster still, dancing so that a falling man shielded him from another's sword while he closed inside the sword-arc of a third. To him, the world consisted of his two knives and the men crowding each other to get at him, and his knives sought the places where men bleed most heavily. Some of those ancient memories came from men who had not been very nice at all.

[Puny]

"Do they really?"

 

Rand=LTT is kill, because after book 12, he received all of LTT's memories

Memory and skill are not the same thing - one could remember being really good at something, but not be really good at it anymore. Therefore the rest of your argument falls apart. Rand might not have LTT's skill, so even if LTT is more skilled than Egwene it doesn't mean Rand is. So you have presented no evidence Rand is more skilled than Egwene. Egwene's skill in relation to Nynaeve would only be important if you were demonstrating that Rand (not LTT, Rand) was more skilled than Nynaeve.

 

If we were talking about the real world, you would certainly have a valid point, but I'm not sure this holds for the WoT. After all, is Mat not an incredible warrior and general based only on the memories in his head? Can Rand not draw excellently because Lews could?

 

Not to mention, when Balthamel is resurrected as Aran'gar, s/he uses saidin, not saidar, despite having a female body. I realise the cases are a little different, as the resurrection of Balthamel was not a rebirth in the same way as Rand is LTT reborn, but it does suggest that the spirit bears more importance than the body, at least in some cases. Rand is LTT reborn, he shares his memories, hears his voice in his head- he is in a different body, looks completely different except for his height, and has had his own life, yes, but the same soul/ spirit/ whatever you want to call it. I tend to assume Rand and LTT have at least similar skill levels.

 

The soul is important in WoT. It is your soul that gets reborn not your physical body.. and insofar we have seen not the personality. The ability to channel is bound to the soul and gender is bound to the soul. Thus a female soul is always female, and a soul being able to channel will always be able to channel (unless the ability is dormant in a nonchanneling age?) The reason Aran´gar used saidin is because his soul is male in a female body. I figure the DO can force the soul to enter the "wrong" body...

 

Oh and on ta´veren. I´m sure RJ said that you can be ta´veren for a period of time. Why can´t then Rand be super ta´veren when he was born (he needed all the help he could get, and it was a nice way to great the Dragon into the world with him being really strong and then when his parents found him the Wheel didn´t need him to be ta´veren because he was in a safe place. Only when he hit puberty/started channel/proclaimed himself to be ta´veren did the Wheel make him ta´veren again. But on the other hand you could also say that he was ta´veren ALL the time but in the between-period his ability was doormant.. Just a thought.

[XXX]

XXX47, those are all excellent reasons why it is completely illogical for Egwene to be given command. You are right in every respect. The notion is absurd.

 

It is also what is going to happen. I don't think I have every read an author more in love with a character than Jordan was in love with Egwene.

 

 

I don't know..maybe Egwene is being set up for a massive fall. Hopefully by Rand but I will take it if anyone teaches her some humility.

 

There is a passage in ToM where she is writing to the Darlin and in her PoV

 

 

Obliquely, she realized what she is doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against the breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve mankind in the last battle.

 

 

I cannot believe the author would put in something like that and expect you to like the character.

 

or this when finding out that Elayne had bonded Rand

 

 

Yes, she bonded him. Well that would be useful

 

 

or her uneasiness in AM bonding AS even after knowing that the taint is no more present but is fine when AS bond AM

 

No author can write this and hope people like this character.

[XXX]

The Dragon is NOT the champion of the light in every age.

 

That has never been confirmed either way...

 

Andrew_J_Parker Mon Apr 25

@BrandSanderson Can you settle a debate? Will Rand's soul be the Light's champion in every Age, or could it ever be someone else?

 

BrandSanderson Mon Apr 25

@Andrew_J_Parker I believe that Ishy implies in the books he and Lews Therin have fought thousands of times.

 

BrandSanderson Mon Apr 25

@Andrew_J_Parker So at least one major character seems to believe it's always Rand. Whether he's right or not is another question.

 

RJ is the one to answer that question which we will unfortunately never hear the answer to...however IMO as he has borrowed the concept from religions where a "champion" appears every time evil begins to raise it's head in an age, I will assume it is the same here to.

 

You are more than welcome to have an opinion, just don't state it as fact as you did earlier in the thread...

 

My mistake for putting it that way..

[Kahsm]

The Dragon is NOT the champion of the light in every age.

 

That has never been confirmed either way...

 

Andrew_J_Parker Mon Apr 25

@BrandSanderson Can you settle a debate? Will Rand's soul be the Light's champion in every Age, or could it ever be someone else?

 

BrandSanderson Mon Apr 25

@Andrew_J_Parker I believe that Ishy implies in the books he and Lews Therin have fought thousands of times.

 

BrandSanderson Mon Apr 25

@Andrew_J_Parker So at least one major character seems to believe it's always Rand. Whether he's right or not is another question.

 

RJ is the one to answer that question which we will unfortunately never hear the answer to...however IMO as he has borrowed the concept from religions where a "champion" appears every time evil begins to raise it's head in an age, I will assume it is the same here to.

 

You are more than welcome to have an opinion, just don't state it as fact as you did earlier in the thread...

 

My mistake for putting it that way..

 

Uhh, not saying he's wrong, but isn't his reasons flawed? Ishy said that when he was pretending to be the DO himself. So when he said "We have fought thousands of times before" or whatever, he meant Rand and the DO. Unless Ishy somehow is a "Hero of the Dark" and tapped into his past memories, I don't see how he would know, he's only a few thousand years old.

 

I always guessed he knew (or was told by the DO) that the fight had gone on many times before and was just using that to try to convince Rand to switch. He has no real first-hand knowledge. Just like how he's the only Forsaken who knows the DO isn't really going to give anyone anything, but just unravel the whole pattern.

[XXX]

I thought the general consensus here was the Ishy was lying when he said that to Rand.

[Kahsm]

I thought the general consensus here was the Ishy was lying when he said that to Rand.

 

He may not have known, but figured it out logically. I believe it's true that Rand and the DO have done this many times before. Maybe not every age, but now-and-again at least once per turning of the wheel. I think we're just doing it twice in 2 ages because of how poorly LTT "won".

 

Ishy's lie, more than likely, was his claim that sometimes Rand turned to the dark. I don't see how the Light could possibly win if Rand went dark, and if the DO ever won, the whole pattern would stop -- there would be nothing after it.

 

That or Rand isn't as important as we think he is. Which I would like to believe ;)

[Suttree]

Obliquely, she realized what she is doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against the breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve mankind in the last battle.

 

I cannot believe the author would put in something like that and expect you to like the character.

 

Damn that Egwene. Trying to gather the nations to serve mankind at the last battle!!! Her list of atrocities continues to grow...

[anotherfingolfin]

XXX47, those are all excellent reasons why it is completely illogical for Egwene to be given command. You are right in every respect. The notion is absurd.

 

It is also what is going to happen. I don't think I have every read an author more in love with a character than Jordan was in love with Egwene.

 

 

I don't know..maybe Egwene is being set up for a massive fall. Hopefully by Rand but I will take it if anyone teaches her some humility.

 

There is a passage in ToM where she is writing to the Darlin and in her PoV

 

 

Obliquely, she realized what she is doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against the breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve mankind in the last battle.

 

 

I cannot believe the author would put in something like that and expect you to like the character.

 

or this when finding out that Elayne had bonded Rand

 

 

Yes, she bonded him. Well that would be useful

 

 

or her uneasiness in AM bonding AS even after knowing that the taint is no more present but is fine when AS bond AM

 

No author can write this and hope people like this character.

 

no, i think randsc is correct. i'd put money on it.

[Elvira_Sedai]

XXX47, those are all excellent reasons why it is completely illogical for Egwene to be given command. You are right in every respect. The notion is absurd.

 

It is also what is going to happen. I don't think I have every read an author more in love with a character than Jordan was in love with Egwene.

 

 

I don't know..maybe Egwene is being set up for a massive fall. Hopefully by Rand but I will take it if anyone teaches her some humility.

 

There is a passage in ToM where she is writing to the Darlin and in her PoV

 

 

Obliquely, she realized what she is doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against the breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve mankind in the last battle.

 

 

I cannot believe the author would put in something like that and expect you to like the character.

 

or this when finding out that Elayne had bonded Rand

 

 

Yes, she bonded him. Well that would be useful

 

 

or her uneasiness in AM bonding AS even after knowing that the taint is no more present but is fine when AS bond AM

 

No author can write this and hope people like this character.

 

 

Do you know that people are different and their simpaties , antipaties and prejustices not the same ? For example , I like Egwene so much particulary because I simply like the women being in charge , not men . And , for the same reason , I don't like RJ's way making Rand the messiah-nic figure , not Egwene or Nynaeve , Moiraine , Aviendha , Tuon ..

[lilltempest]

Do you know that people are different and their simpaties , antipaties and prejustices not the same ? For example , I like Egwene so much particulary because I simply like the women being in charge , not men . And , for the same reason , I don't like RJ's way making Rand the messiah-nic figure , not Egwene or Nynaeve , Moiraine , Aviendha , Tuon ..

 

Your point is a good one, and I think a great many fans take the same sexist view you have ("Women should rule the men!!").

 

Personally, I loathe Egwene because I hate narcissistic, arrogant, unfeeling, heartless a$$holes who care more about obtaining power than they do the people who are supposedly their friends and family (and she fits that bill perfectly, in my opinion). I feel the same disgust for almost all of the Aes Sedai for the same reason. I loathe most of the Warders, the bonded Asha'man, and a great number of the men in the series because they are spineless slaves who have no sense of self worth and think the only way to have worth is being human shields for one of the aforementioned a$$holes.

 

On the other hand, I love Rand, Nynaeve, Mat, Faile, and various other characters because their hearts are in the right place, they don't crave power for power's sake (or so they can lord it over their friends as some sort of perverse "revenge" fantasy to turn the tables), are self reflective and can recognize fault in their own actions and behaviors (even Nynaeve, who spent the first half of the series seeming quite un-self aware), and, despite personality flaws (that everyone has to some extent!), they are likable characters. But, to each his own. Or hers, as the case may be.