Why are the Aes Sedai so poor in battle?

[solarz]

No, but the forsaken jumped when Moridin, Shaidar or The Dark One himself said frog. Besides they had gotten the order not to hurt him and let the lord of chaos rule. Sowing chaos and hurting Rand emotional was their main purpose for a long time.

 

Which has nothing to do with subjugating the White Tower. The fact is, from the Forsaken point of view, controlling the White Tower would have been far more effective than just weakening and dividing it. That they did not do so was not a matter of choice, but rather a testament to the power of the Aes Sedai.

[lilltempest]

I do not think Rand considers Egwene a friend anymore, nor a person whom he can fully trust, which is why he didn't mention her regarding Callandor. When he later talks with Min about him and LTT being the same, he doesn't mention Egwene either.

 

^^This. If Rand does, indeed, have to be in a circle with two women and give control up to them (and Min threw a shadow of doubt on this in tGS when she was talking to Nynaeve and Cadsuane), then he has to have two women he trusts. Nynaeve is definitely a woman he trusts, which leaves an open position. I think, as far as channeling women go, the only other ones he trusts are Avi, Elayne, and Moiraine. Egwene is not someone he trusts at all, and for good reason. He cannot afford to submit to someone who is so hostile to him and who wants complete control over him. It would make no sense at all for him to ask Egwene to be part of the circle of three, IMO. In fact, if he did I'd lose all respect for him and think he's a complete and utter moron - zen-ness or not.

[Manscher]

Which has nothing to do with subjugating the White Tower. The fact is, from the Forsaken point of view, controlling the White Tower would have been far more effective than just weakening and dividing it. That they did not do so was not a matter of choice, but rather a testament to the power of the Aes Sedai.

 

They were more or less in control of it, Elaidas paranoia and insanity was doing the work for them. I ask again, why bother risking anything in an attempt to gain control? They were doing such a fine work causing chaos on their own already.

 

 

Weren't they supposed to not hurt him because of the link w/ Moridin?

 

True and that was not until later, using that word there was perhaps a bit wrong.

[solarz]

They were more or less in control of it, Elaidas paranoia and insanity was doing the work for them. I ask again, why bother risking anything in an attempt to gain control? They were doing such a fine work causing chaos on their own already.

 

Except that they had lost half the tower, and the Black Ajah were busy trying to keep the schisms wide rather than focusing their attention elsewhere. Oh yeah, and then Egwene reunited the tower and purged the Black Ajah. And destroyed Mesaana in the process.

 

You are right in that they didn't want to risk open confrontation with the White Tower. The fact that the Forsaken didn't want to risk a direct take-over of the White Tower shows how powerful the Aes Sedai are.

[Manscher]

No, it just shows that flaunting your ability to channel around other channellers is a good way to get yourself noticed and perhaps caught. Nobody is above a circle of 13, the Aiel Wise Ones could do the exact same thing.

 

They failed eventually yes, partly due to "betrayal" from within, but it still does not change the fact that the Aes Sedai, unwillingly, served the DOs quite well with their constant need to be in control, manipulate and scheme among each other. Besides, you can give Perrin the credit for Mesaanas fall, had he not brought the dreamspike to Tar Valon, Mesaana would just have killed Egwene instead of trying to figure out where the dreamspike was. Oh and Narishma was the one who got Aran'gar to flee.

[solarz]

No, it just shows that flaunting your ability to channel around other channellers is a good way to get yourself noticed and perhaps caught. Nobody is above a circle of 13, the Aiel Wise Ones could do the exact same thing.

 

They failed eventually yes, partly due to "betrayal" from within, but it still does not change the fact that the Aes Sedai, unwillingly, served the DOs quite well with their constant need to be in control, manipulate and scheme among each other. Besides, you can give Perrin the credit for Mesaanas fall, had he not brought the dreamspike to Tar Valon, Mesaana would just have killed Egwene instead of trying to figure out where the dreamspike was. Oh and Narishma was the one who got Aran'gar to flee.

 

Nobody is above a circle of 13, yet neither the Aiel Wise Ones nor the Damane know how to link.

 

Really, it doesn't matter how you want to rationalize every little detail to support your view, the fact remains that even the Forsaken were wary of the capabilities of the White Tower, when no other group, aside from Rand, has been able to stand up to any Forsaken. No, not even the Black Tower: individual Ashaman have fought Forsaken while teamed with Aes Sedai or Rand, but the Black Tower itself is slowly falling under the Shadow.

[Manscher]

The Wise Ones know how to link, the Damane CAN'T link.

 

As for the other parts, ANY group of female channeller is dangerous for another channeller, because of the circles. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the capabilities of the White Tower. Two Asha'man fought against Sammael during the invasion of Illian, granted they didn't do any attacking against him, but rather defending, they did manage to survive.

 

Yes, the Black Tower is partly infested by darkfriends now, but it is FAR from a majority, but rather a small portion of it, at most 20% I'd say, which was around the same amount of darkfriends in The White Tower.

[XXX]

 

 

Nobody is above a circle of 13, yet neither the Aiel Wise Ones nor the Damane know how to link.

 

Really, it doesn't matter how you want to rationalize every little detail to support your view, the fact remains that even the Forsaken were wary of the capabilities of the White Tower, when no other group, aside from Rand, has been able to stand up to any Forsaken. No, not even the Black Tower: individual Ashaman have fought Forsaken while teamed with Aes Sedai or Rand, but the Black Tower itself is slowly falling under the Shadow.

 

The WO know how to link now...and the BT is not falling under the Shadow atleast not any more than the WT was. More than 1/2 of the BT are not even in the BT, they are under Rand's orders in the field since Logain brought them out.

[solarz]

The Wise Ones know how to link, the Damane CAN'T link.

 

As for the other parts, ANY group of female channeller is dangerous for another channeller, because of the circles. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the capabilities of the White Tower. Two Asha'man fought against Sammael during the invasion of Illian, granted they didn't do any attacking against him, but rather defending, they did manage to survive.

 

Yes, the Black Tower is partly infested by darkfriends now, but it is FAR from a majority, but rather a small portion of it, at most 20% I'd say, which was around the same amount of darkfriends in The White Tower.

 

The only way the Black Tower situation can be comparable to the White Tower is if the Amyrlin was a Darkfriend. Even in the worst crisis, there were no Aes Sedai being forcibly turned to the Shadow like what is happening in the Black Tower.

 

And in any case, that still doesn't change the fact that the White Tower is one of the few groups that has been able to stand against the Forsaken (without help from Rand).

[XXX]

That does not not change the fact that the AS has lost every mass battle with other channelers...Dumai Wells, the Seachan attack, the attempt to attack the Black Tower.

 

The AS Amyrlin was a fool who did what the dark wanted anyway...not much better than being a DF herself.

[sleepinghour]

He doesn't even consider Egwene? Sure Avi and Elayne are part of his harem, but that seems irrelevant when we're talking about saving existence. Egwene is 10x the channeler both Avi and Elayne are and far more cool headed than Elayne. Good lord if he brings Elayne with him I'll flip out. At least Avi would handle herself accordingly.

Elayne can be ruled out since she's now five months pregnant and having difficulties channeling. Egwene would be a good candidate if not for the fact that she's firmly opposed to breaking the seals. Rand can't hold off finding a second woman on the chance that Egwene will change her mind at Merrilor and agree to link with him.

 

Also, Rand isn't necessarily thinking about channeling ability here. Unless Nynaeve told him, he has no way of knowing Egwene has a talent for making cuendillar or that Aviendha knows how to unravel weaves. I think he simply wants women he can trust completely and knows would be willing to go to Shayol Ghul with him.

[MasterAblar]

The Wise Ones know how to link, the Damane CAN'T link.

 

As for the other parts, ANY group of female channeller is dangerous for another channeller, because of the circles. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the capabilities of the White Tower. Two Asha'man fought against Sammael during the invasion of Illian, granted they didn't do any attacking against him, but rather defending, they did manage to survive.

 

Yes, the Black Tower is partly infested by darkfriends now, but it is FAR from a majority, but rather a small portion of it, at most 20% I'd say, which was around the same amount of darkfriends in The White Tower.

 

The only way the Black Tower situation can be comparable to the White Tower is if the Amyrlin was a Darkfriend. Even in the worst crisis, there were no Aes Sedai being forcibly turned to the Shadow like what is happening in the Black Tower.

 

And in any case, that still doesn't change the fact that the White Tower is one of the few groups that has been able to stand against the Forsaken (without help from Rand).

 

Well technically Rand is highest among the ashaman.

[Suttree]

That does not not change the fact that the AS has lost every mass battle with other channelers...Dumai Wells,

 

Well you could also say the AS won at Dumais Wells. Thats not really the best example...they were fighting on both sides and did extremely well against the Shaido WO's.

[Kahsm]

He doesn't even consider Egwene? Sure Avi and Elayne are part of his harem, but that seems irrelevant when we're talking about saving existence. Egwene is 10x the channeler both Avi and Elayne are and far more cool headed than Elayne. Good lord if he brings Elayne with him I'll flip out. At least Avi would handle herself accordingly.

Elayne can be ruled out since she's now five months pregnant and having difficulties channeling. Egwene would be a good candidate if not for the fact that she's firmly opposed to breaking the seals. Rand can't hold off finding a second woman on the chance that Egwene will change her mind at Merrilor and agree to link with him.

 

Also, Rand isn't necessarily thinking about channeling ability here. Unless Nynaeve told him, he has no way of knowing Egwene has a talent for making cuendillar or that Aviendha knows how to unravel weaves. I think he simply wants women he can trust completely and knows would be willing to go to Shayol Ghul with him.

 

Why do people keep assuming Egwene opposes Rand completely? Is she working for the DO now? Just because she doesn't want him to break the seals, DOES NOT mean she'll abandon him if he does it. I don't want my GF to leave wet towels on the floor. I PLEAD with her not to do it because I believe it's wrong. I do not break up with her over it.

 

If Rand goes ahead and breaks the seals, and they're still alive afterwards for him to say "I told you so, now come help me with Callandor" Egwene would go, and she'd be a valuable asset.

[MasterAblar]

He doesn't even consider Egwene? Sure Avi and Elayne are part of his harem, but that seems irrelevant when we're talking about saving existence. Egwene is 10x the channeler both Avi and Elayne are and far more cool headed than Elayne. Good lord if he brings Elayne with him I'll flip out. At least Avi would handle herself accordingly.

Elayne can be ruled out since she's now five months pregnant and having difficulties channeling. Egwene would be a good candidate if not for the fact that she's firmly opposed to breaking the seals. Rand can't hold off finding a second woman on the chance that Egwene will change her mind at Merrilor and agree to link with him.

 

Also, Rand isn't necessarily thinking about channeling ability here. Unless Nynaeve told him, he has no way of knowing Egwene has a talent for making cuendillar or that Aviendha knows how to unravel weaves. I think he simply wants women he can trust completely and knows would be willing to go to Shayol Ghul with him.

 

Why do people keep assuming Egwene opposes Rand completely? Is she working for the DO now? Just because she doesn't want him to break the seals, DOES NOT mean she'll abandon him if he does it. I don't want my GF to leave wet towels on the floor. I PLEAD with her not to do it because I believe it's wrong. I do not break up with her over it.

 

If Rand goes ahead and breaks the seals, and they're still alive afterwards for him to say "I told you so, now come help me with Callandor" Egwene would go, and she'd be a valuable asset.

 

Well sure except that if Egwene doesn't trust Rand on the seals, how can Rand know that she will trust him with Callandor? It's possible she will, but there are better choices.

[Apple13]

I think Egwene would be an okay choice for the circle with Callandor, but Moiraine or Cadsuane would probably be better choices, since Rand does trust them more.

[pilgram]

I never said AS are weaker than the WO's(though that might quickly change now that the WO's are learning how to use combat weaves and not handicapped by the 3 oaths not the mention the know it all attitude of the AS)..but they are certainly weaker than the Ashaman and the Damane.

 

As pointed out by others 2 circles were led by AS and one by a AM. One of the AS circles used callander while the other managed to take a fatality.Not sure if that is anything to brag about. The AS who really shined there was Cadsuane but she is an exception rather than the rule.

 

Why would any forsaken want to destroy the actual WT...they have been absolutely useless so far. The only AS helping the Dragon are either the ones sworn to him or Cadsuane's group/Nynaeve who are not taking their directions from the WT. In fact for the large part of the series they have been a major pain in the ass for the Dragon.

 

As for your sa'angreal comparison to the Navy carriers..that would make sense if the AS actually made the sa'angreal or angreal they use to make up for their lack of skills. The truth is they only have them because by pure luck they are the successor organization to the AoL Aes Sedai. They do not know how to make them or even use all of the artifacts they have stumbled into. It makes them look even more useless that even after having these artifacts they are not the strongest channeler group.

 

 

Dude, how many Forsaken have the Ashaman and Damane taken out? Taking casualties while fighting the most powerful baddies in the world isn't a mark of shame. Quite the contrary! The only reason there weren't MORE casualties, was the fact that the Forsaken were disorganized and fighting on their own instead of in coordination.

 

And why *wouldn't* the Forsaken want to destroy the White Tower? For all your claims that the AS are weak, who do you think is going to be the most important channeler faction in the Last Battle? It's not going to the the Damane, that's for sure!

 

Do you think Merana would rather be hiding than rule the White Tower with the Black Ajah, if she could do so?

 

You seem to ignore the fact that the White Tower had been HELPING Rand become the Dragon Reborn until Siuan was deposed: an act that was clearly instigated by the Black Ajah. If the Shadow is focusing so much attention on infiltrating, corrupting, and splitting the White Tower, why do you think they are not interested in destroying or capturing the White Tower for themselves, if they could do so?

 

Look at what happened to other factions when the Shadow turned its attention on them: Illian, Tear, Andor, and Arad Doman, all controlled by Forsaken. The Seanchan homeland, destroyed and thrown into anarchy. The Black Tower, corrupted from within, and turning into a tool of the Shadow. Illian, Tear, Andor, and Arad Doman were liberated by the Dragon Reborn. The White Tower, also suffering huge devastation at the hands of the Shadow, managed to pull itself together *by themselves*!

 

Finally, while the White Tower did not create the sa'angreal and angreal, they *are* the only people, aside from Rand and the Shadow, who even know these things exist, nevermind use them! The White Tower's accumulated lore and their search for objects of power over 3000 years is what gave them that store. That is part and parcel with their power base!

 

No, the White Tower is not the strongest channeler group. The strongest channeler group is the Seanchan, simply because they are the biggest channeler group, with the might of an entire empire behind them, and the fact that they have a ter'angreal that allows them to enslave other channelers! Had the White Tower been as powerful as the Seanchan, they would have no need of the Three Oaths and would have ruled all of Randland already. However, the fact that they're not as powerful as the Seanchan does not make them weak by any stretch of the imagination. That would be like saying the British are weak and useless because the Americans are more powerful!

 

 

To answer your first question none of asha’man is major character. As for why Forsaken wouldn’t want to destroy White Tower, well they never read Evil Overlord to do list, so they are helplessly genre blind. :)

 

On (a bit) more serious note, I’d say it is mater of plot convenience. If Shadow had destroyed Tower in TSR instead of just dividing it where would story go from there on? Certainly nowhere in direction of FoM or Egwene being Amirlin or Seanchan getting Traveling or other stuff from Elaida, or to return several books back, Rand’s kidnapping and all that came through that. If that happened, there would be only WT controlled by Black Ajah (here I assume that Shadow would just kill lightsided AS without actually going public with their real loyalties) and various groups of AS composed of those outside of Tower in the time of coup. Even if those groups could avoid being caught by BA or other DF (that in self being made even harder by there likely ignorance of what actually happened ) they would still be pretty much helpless and utterly dependant on Rand’s and Aiel’s protection. And that would really go against themes of gender equality that RJ put through whole series.

 

What’s even worst it would mean that villains that our heroes ought to face and defeat have sound strategies (and brains) which would put said heroes in quite a predicament.:)

 

To give more in-universe comment of your post I’d say that Ishamael planed to use Tower rather than destroy it, while other Forsaken simple weren’t out of Bore long enough for there planes to progress that far. And they carried villain ball.

 

One question for the end: if you would have to give a number for chanellars in Shara what would it be – at least in order of magnitude?

[Himiko]

"I will need your counsel again. At the very least, I would like you by my side as I go to Shayol Ghul. I cannot defeat him with saidin alone, and if we are going to use Callandor, I will need two women I trust in the circle with me. I have not decided upon the other. Aviendha or Elayne, perhaps. But you for certain."

 

And there's another thing. He doesn't even consider Egwene? Sure Avi and Elayne are part of his harem, but that seems irrelevant when we're talking about saving existence. Egwene is 10x the channeler both Avi and Elayne are and far more cool headed than Elayne. Good lord if he brings Elayne with him I'll flip out. At least Avi would handle herself accordingly.

 

Elayne and Egwene are about equals in channelling strength, at least when Elayne isn't pregnant. Isn't Aviendha also supposed to be around the same strength?

 

That aside, I think the quote you used kind of answers your question. He doesn't trust Egwene enough to link with her, especially if a woman might have to take control of the link in the end. Perhaps its because they've drifted apart, perhaps he thinks Egwene is too loyal to the WT rather than the bigger picture, perhaps its simply because he distrusts AS in general, particularly after being captured by them, so to be asked to trust the "personification of the WT", especially when she has offered no apology for his suffering at her organisation's hands, is perhaps naturally unlikely. There's another quote later on where he lists people that have shaped and helped him during his life as Rand, and he doesn't mention Egwene then, either. In the end, Rand needs two women he can trust, and presumably, be powerful and capable at weaving, in case they need to take control. Nynaeve is a given- we know she's immensely talented at learning weaves, and hugely powerful- but for the second woman, Rand knows a lot of channelers who are amongst the most powerful in the world, that he seems to trust more than Egwene.

[Superhal]

Is the issue of Rand's trust necessary to this discussion? Throughout the series, because of his insanity, he's been remarkably unreliable on judging a person's true intentions.

 

Besides, Moiraine's back so the second woman is an easy choice.

[Himiko]

Is the issue of Rand's trust necessary to this discussion? Throughout the series, because of his insanity, he's been remarkably unreliable on judging a person's true intentions.

 

Besides, Moiraine's back so the second woman is an easy choice.

 

The question was asked why Rand doesn't think of Egwene as a candidate for linking with Callandor, when, in Kael Pyralis' opinion, Egwene would be a better candidate. Since Rand specifically says that he needs two women he trusts to link with him. If a woman may have to lead the circle, then this is understandable, as he will not want to relinquish control to someone he doesn't trust. So Rand's trust was directly relevant to the question, if not to the discussion as a whole. Whether Rand is judging Egwene correctly or not, that is his opinion, or seems to be, and this is his plan.

 

I don't think Egwene is a darkfriend, I don't think Rand believes she is, either. I just don't think he trusts her, and if he's potentially going to have to relinquish control of the circle to them, then it makes sense that he wants two women he trusts absolutely in the circle with him. There are plenty of people in life who I wouldn't neccessarily trust, it doesn't mean I think they're terrible, evil people. It doesn't mean Egwene is evil or incapable. It doesn't even mean Rand thinks that she is. It simply means she's not the best person for the task at hand, because trust is important to Rand.

 

It may be, in the end, that they come to an understanding, and Egwene is Rand's second linker after all- though I doubt it, as I assume she will be required to lead her troops, plans tactics, etc, as a leader of a faction in the Last Battle, even if they do come to trust each other.

[XXX]

Is the issue of Rand's trust necessary to this discussion? Throughout the series, because of his insanity, he's been remarkably unreliable on judging a person's true intentions.

 

Besides, Moiraine's back so the second woman is an easy choice.

 

He is pretty sane when he omits the name of Egwene among the people he trusts...nothing surprising. Rand is trying to save the world not the WT. The WT can go to hell for all he cares. Obviously Egwene has different ideas.

 

Moirane or Alivia both will be excellent choices along with Ny..none of them will care too much about the WT.

[Kahsm]

Is the issue of Rand's trust necessary to this discussion? Throughout the series, because of his insanity, he's been remarkably unreliable on judging a person's true intentions.

 

Besides, Moiraine's back so the second woman is an easy choice.

 

He is pretty sane when he omits the name of Egwene among the people he trusts...nothing surprising. Rand is trying to save the world not the WT. The WT can go to hell for all he cares. Obviously Egwene has different ideas.

 

Moirane or Alivia both will be excellent choices along with Ny..none of them will care too much about the WT.

 

... Yes, Rand al'Thor thinks an organization made up entirely of women can "Go to hell". That is exactly in line with how he has hated and wished women of any stripe dead from the very begining. He has never shown any respect or hero-like traits when it comes to women. Your argument is spot on.

</sarcasum>

[XXX]

Women do not equal Aes Sedai..they are one foolish faction of channeelers..led by a moron who Rand plays like a flute. Why one earth will he trust her.

He is trying to save the world not the Aes Sedai. If the Dragon had a choice between saving the world and making the AS Seachan Damane..he will choose to save the world. Will Egwene make the same choice?

[WhiskyJack]

Jordan had created such an awe of "Aes Sedai" in earlier books. Boy, they are sad bunch.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Women do not equal Aes Sedai..they are one foolish faction of channeelers..led by a moron who Rand plays like a flute. Why one earth will he trust her.

He is trying to save the world not the Aes Sedai. If the Dragon had a choice between saving the world and making the AS Seachan Damane..he will choose to save the world. Will Egwene make the same choice?

 

She'd do BOTH. The options are NOT always mutually exclusive, you know...