The Fourth Ta'veren

[True Source Creator]

From Himiko's post in the thread titled "Elayne".

 

You make some interesting points here about the three... I wouldn't say Egwene is brilliantly written in some ways, purely because she is written to be good at everything she tries (with the one, briefly mentioned, exception of healing), with the minimum of training. Seriously, she's a hugely skilled weaver after less than a year of tower training before she is raised Amyrlin. She's one of the most talented dreamers in the series, and, apparently, totally immersed in Aiel culture and full of honour after training with them for a few months. She can make cuendillar. She's a brilliant politician after a few weeks with Siuan- so good, in fact, that she makes every other AS who ever opposes her in any way, look like an idiot by comparison. And, no matter how she treats Nynaeve, Elayne and Gawyn, they still all seem to think the sun shines out of her arse. I find it annoying and unrealistic. But if we look purely at her personality, then yes, I agree, she's well written- the mere fact that she's so vocally disliked gives testament to that.

 

 

Rand's uber-ta'veren status made all the other ta'veren born around him, and since he was brought to the Two Rivers, that means they were born there, and which also explains why so many channelers have been brought from there since TEoTW. Soooo...Egwene's ta'veren. Duh!

[Feral]

No, I think she was just written badly lol. It's not just how much her achievements progress, it's how her personality progresses in jumps too. Yes Rand and Perrin have changed a lot too, but they've been under a lot more pressure and they had the seed for greatness in them already. Oh, and then there's the really obvious foreshadowing with Moiraine saying she could be amyrillin when she's only known her a few days. Seriously? I don't know what was going on with RJ there. He's usually a lot more subtle.

[Kadere]

No, there are only 3 Ta'veren in the series. Rand, Mat, and Perrin. Egwene is just an important character who gains a lot of power through her own intelligence and seizing the gaps that the Ta'veren boys leave open through how they effect the Pattern.

[True Source Creator]

^

Not true! There are technically at least 4 ta'veren in the series, and one of them does make a "cameo" performance in TGH.

[Kadere]

No there aren't. Who are you thinking of?

 

Oh, I think you're thinking of Hawkwing? In which case you should also count all the rest of the Heroes. But since none of them are Ta'veren when they appear, they're ghosts risen from the dead, not Ta'veren, they don't count.

[True Source Creator]

^

Artur Hawkwing. He was all ghostly in TGH, but it still counts as an appearance!

[Kadere]

No he doesn't. The Pattern didn't make him a Ta'veren. A Ta'veren is chosen by the Pattern to fix problems within the Pattern. None of the Heroes, not even Birgitte, are Ta'veren in the time of the series. They WERE Ta'veren when they lived, but they are not Ta'veren in the timeline of this series.

[True Source Creator]

In the direct series, yes. I should rephrase it to the universe of the WoT, then.

 

 

But, psh, Egwene's ta'veren. It's so freaking obvious. Nynaeve must be, too.

[Kadere]

Neither Egwene nor Nynaeve are Ta'veren. RJ's said so, the books have said so, they're not Ta'veren.

[randsc]

In the direct series, yes. I should rephrase it to the universe of the WoT, then.

 

 

But, psh, Egwene's ta'veren. It's so freaking obvious. Nynaeve must be, too.

 

Riiighghhtt. That's why Suian, who has the Talent of "seeing" Ta'veren, never mentioned it. And the Logain, who has the same Talent, similarly never mentioned it. And that Robert Jordan said that there could have been female ta'veren, but that there didn't happen to be any in this Age.

 

Egwene accomplishes as much as she does as effortlessly and illogically as she does because she is Mary Sue, not because she is ta'veren. I'm sure that in AMoL, we will get to read her sex scene with Captain Kirk.

[Stitch]

The closest to a fourth current Taveren is probably Fain or Nae'Blis in that they are able to affect the pattern (though in their case it is from largely outside of the pattern as opposed to how Taveren usually work)

[Awakened]

I think people also need to remember that everyone is a reincarnation of somebody. Maybe the reason why Egwene is so good at what she does is that this the millionth life in a row that she has been a ruler and some of it is rubbing off on this incarnation.

[Goldstar]

I may be remembering wrong, but I thought Moiraine said something about people sometimes being Ta'veren temporarily in EoTW/TGH...

[CadeForeverfar]

No he doesn't. The Pattern didn't make him a Ta'veren. A Ta'veren is chosen by the Pattern to fix problems within the Pattern. None of the Heroes, not even Birgitte, are Ta'veren in the time of the series. They WERE Ta'veren when they lived, but they are not Ta'veren in the timeline of this series.

 

Well he is seen by Mat in one of his memories, would that count?

[Majsju]

I may be remembering wrong, but I thought Moiraine said something about people sometimes being Ta'veren temporarily in EoTW/TGH...

 

All ta'veren are temporarily. It is not something you are born with and then keeping till you die.

 

What RJ has said about an eventual 4th ta'veren is that none of the main female characters is ta'veren, and it is extremely unlikely (but not impossible) anyone sworn to the Shadow would ever become ta'veren.

[Himiko]

I may be remembering wrong, but I thought Moiraine said something about people sometimes being Ta'veren temporarily in EoTW/TGH...

 

All ta'veren are temporarily. It is not something you are born with and then keeping till you die.

 

What RJ has said about an eventual 4th ta'veren is that none of the main female characters is ta'veren, and it is extremely unlikely (but not impossible) anyone sworn to the Shadow would ever become ta'veren.

 

I was about to say this, but you beat me to it :P Egwene is undoubtedly one of the main female characters, therefore she is not ta'veren.

 

I feel that Egwene might be more believable if she were ta'veren in a way. The three male leads also accomplish a lot within a relatively short space of time, but at least they have the excuse of being ta'veren- as well as other things: Mat is a great general because he has the memories of many warriors and generals before him. Perrin's wife has been trained from childhood to lead, so he has someone to help him with the day to day running of the Two Rivers, and his massive alliance. Now, OK, to a certain extent, these are all written into the books so that the three ta'veren can get where the need to/ gain as much power as they need to/ perform as much awesome and epic stuff as makes the books exciting :P. But no such thing is written in for Egwene. There is no "Get knowledge quick" scheme written in for her, RJ attempts to give her training, but she becomes so good after such pitifully little training, and others with vastly more knowledge and training are made to look so stupid by comparison, that I find it grating to read. Her being ta'veren might at least explain why she outsmarts both Halls with only a few weeks/ months of advice from Siuan, despite them all having been master manipulators for centuries before she was born, but we know she isn't.

 

I don't know, I just feel like RJ knew that he wanted Egwene to end up as Amyrlin, with Elayne as queen, Nynaeve as the uber- Healer, and presumably Aviendha as a Wise One, but whilst the other female characters had some background training/ knowledge in their eventual fields- Elayne has been trained in politics since birth, Nynaeve was a Wisdom, and has always had a passion for healing, etc- Egwene shows no signs of being any kind of political mastermind, IMO. She's Nynaeve's apprentice, but Nynaeve is hardly a master of subtle politics :P She spends the first few books as a novice/ accepted, and spends most of TDR sulking and snapping because Nynaeve has taken charge and actually seems competent at it- hell, she even admits to herself in her POV. And, perhaps because RJ doesn't want all of his main characters running around as ta'veren, I don't know, Egwene doesn't have that way of getting herself to the position. So he tried to give her training, but it seems insufficient for the skills that she gains. I think character-wise, she's fine (though I loathe her :P), but power/ knowledge/ ability- wise, she is one of the worst written main characters of the series.

[futurehermit]

You ever meet those people who are just good at things and pick up things quickly? Gifted people. They exist in our world, why not in the WoT universe? That's how I've always seen Egwene, and Elayne to a certain extent.

 

I've never gotten the hate for Egwene or some of the other female characters. Egwene'e one of my fav characters in the series.

[Himiko]

Gifted people exist in real life, sure. But most people aren't gifted at absolutely everything they turn their hand to. I'm just finishing university, I know loads of people who are gifted in their chosen subject areas. I know people who can play a load of different musical instruments, people who are great at art, etc. But being gifted in one area doesn't mean you're gifted in all others.

 

That's my issue with Egwene. Her being gifted in a certain area, and being naturally talented at that, I can understand. But that isn't the case. She can split her weaves 14 different ways, I believe? When dosed up on forkroot and being beaten every day, after a few months novice/ accepted training that was constantly interrupted to go and fetch Black Ajah for Siuan, or being sent to the kitchens for punishment. She is one of the most talented Dreamwalkers in the world, she can take on a Forsaken in TAR. She is such a great WO apprentice, that the other Wise Ones want her to remain with the Aiel. She is a great politician- and I cannot overstate this, she takes on women who are all great politicians and master manipulators in their own right, and have been for centuries, and after a few weeks of advice from Siuan, suddenly she makes them all look like idiot children. Just by saying how much Elaida sucks, apparently every sister thinks she's amazing, wants her in their Ajah, and takes her advice over stuff that she should, by logic, know far, far less than them.

 

Her being gifted at weaving is not what I take issue with. Her being gifted in TAR is not what I take issue with. Her absorbing the Aiel culture is not what I take issue with. Her skills in politics are not... well, OK, I do take issue with them, because all AS are supposed to be gifted at politics, and have honed their skills over decades/ centuries of use. But anyway, it is less that she is ridiculously gifted at individual things, because yes, some people are, it is that she is ridiculously gifted to a high level in everything she tries her hand at in the series. Let's not forget, she can also make cuendillar (not sure about the spelling there), and is skilled with Earth, which is very unusual for a woman. There's a point at which is stops being a gifted character, and starts being badly written.

 

Just to clarify, I love the series, I love many of the characters, I think RJ and Brandon are great writers, but I do think, unless some explanation as to why this happens comes up in the last book, this may be where the ball was dropped in comparison to the rest of the series.

[OptimusPrime]

Siuan would have noticed if Egwene was Ta'veren.

 

Personally I think there are only 3, and that if anything, it is Rands ta'mara'whateverthat affects Egwenes thread in the Pattern. Egwene isnt incredibly gifted at everything she does, she is merely provided with the right assistance at the right time, but without being Ta'veren.

[Smittyphi]

Egwene is most likely a Manetheren descendant. Manetheriens were known for being a thorn in the DO's side. I'm sure some of that is traits passed from parents to children. Egwene's father is the mayor so she undoubtedly picked on managerial skills from her and was going to apprentice under Nyneave and learned some stuff from her. She is naturally charismatic, as seen from book 1. She's not afraid to stick her neck out and uses her charismatic personality. Are there Egwene's in the real world? Possibly. If so, there aren't many so it makes sense that there really is only one personon Egwene's charismatic skill level. Does Jordan push it a bit much? Of course. It's fiction though.

 

I'm an Egwene supporter so I'm naturally biased but I think this does help do some explaining

[spoke]

Egwene is achieving all of these things for one reason only. Rand who is the strongest Ta'veren seen since Lews Therin's time, pulls the pattern so that he has what he needs when he needs it. He needed the tower broken so he could work in the way that he needed free of Aes Sedai control. Once he is strong enough, he needed a united tower to assist him in preparing for the last battle. She is all capable and what not, not because she is talented, but because that is what Rand needs, someone he can easily manipulate in that position so that he can prepare for the Last Battle. I take no issue with her getting good at politics, and what not, because that is was the Ta'veren needs.

[W_A]

Egwene is most likely a Manetheren descendant. Manetheriens were known for being a thorn in the DO's side. I'm sure some of that is traits passed from parents to children. Egwene's father is the mayor so she undoubtedly picked on managerial skills from her and was going to apprentice under Nyneave and learned some stuff from her. She is naturally charismatic, as seen from book 1. She's not afraid to stick her neck out and uses her charismatic personality. Are there Egwene's in the real world? Possibly. If so, there aren't many so it makes sense that there really is only one personon Egwene's charismatic skill level. Does Jordan push it a bit much? Of course. It's fiction though.

 

I'm an Egwene supporter so I'm naturally biased but I think this does help do some explaining

They do sort of try to excuse her by making a lot of people from Emond's Field strong in the OP, but that doesn't excuse her other skills. Being the daughter of the Mayor of Emond's Field? His job is to have the working set of scales in the village so that people from Taren Ferry don't cheat them. Also, where do we see in book 1 that she is naturally charismatic enough to completely blind everybody who tries to oppose her?

[Suttree]

Her skills in politics are not... well, OK, I do take issue with them, because all AS are supposed to be gifted at politics, and have honed their skills over decades/ centuries of use.

 

She got that from Bran obvs, the TR's election campaign doesn't run itself...

[Majsju]

Egwene is most likely a Manetheren descendant. Manetheriens were known for being a thorn in the DO's side. I'm sure some of that is traits passed from parents to children. Egwene's father is the mayor so she undoubtedly picked on managerial skills from her and was going to apprentice under Nyneave and learned some stuff from her. She is naturally charismatic, as seen from book 1. She's not afraid to stick her neck out and uses her charismatic personality. Are there Egwene's in the real world? Possibly. If so, there aren't many so it makes sense that there really is only one personon Egwene's charismatic skill level. Does Jordan push it a bit much? Of course. It's fiction though.

 

I'm an Egwene supporter so I'm naturally biased but I think this does help do some explaining

They do sort of try to excuse her by making a lot of people from Emond's Field strong in the OP, but that doesn't excuse her other skills. Being the daughter of the Mayor of Emond's Field? His job is to have the working set of scales in the village so that people from Taren Ferry don't cheat them. Also, where do we see in book 1 that she is naturally charismatic enough to completely blind everybody who tries to oppose her?

 

Well, her dad being the mayor might not mean much. However, he is also the owner of the inn. And come on, there are no better diplomats in the universe than bartenders. Just imagine the skills it takes to get a drunk Cenn Buie to leave without causing a scene

[Smittyphi]

They do sort of try to excuse her by making a lot of people from Emond's Field strong in the OP, but that doesn't excuse her other skills. Being the daughter of the Mayor of Emond's Field? His job is to have the working set of scales in the village so that people from Taren Ferry don't cheat them. Also, where do we see in book 1 that she is naturally charismatic enough to completely blind everybody who tries to oppose her?

I see her strong willed nature and willingness to jump in head first and I see her always optimistic. Certainly enough to inspire faith from me for her. She just always came off as extremely intelligent and would succeed in whatever she did.

 

Just imagine the skills it takes to get a drunk Cenn Buie to leave without causing a scene