Least Favorite Character

[thisguy]

You can say the same thing about Rand.

 

Sorry you lost me. You could say what about him? Are you trying to submit that Cads was not necesarry?

I'm saying, you can write off all of his screw ups because he's going to beat the DO.

[holiday]

RE: Rand and bullying, I think that Rand's browbeating of those who are supposedly his followers, while perhaps not morally justified, is one of the more believable human responses in the series. He's trying to save the universe from being annihilated, and has to deal with backbiting and stubborn resistance at every turn, and from every angle. The nobles from Cairhien, Tear, and Andor are obviously guilty in this regard, but they are not the only ones. The rebel AS are the smallest offenders, their biggest gaffe being the embassy's inability to see through the ruse of the 'Aiel' attack in Caemlyn, potentially putting the fate of the world on the line for the chance to teach Rand deference and respect towards AS. The Tower AS' boneheadedness here is obvious, as pointed out by Egwene in TGS. The absolute worst offenders, though, are the Aiel, due to their idiotic refusal to draw the obvious inferences from the fact that the Car'a'carn and the Dragon Reborn are the same person. That's enough to turn anyone into an impatient jerk, not to mention someone tasked with saving all of creation.

 

It's also important to remember, I think, that Rand the bully is in a large part a creation of Moiraine, who repeatedly encourages him to take a heavy hand towards those sworn to him, manipulating them and turning them against each other. Cadsuane's handling of Rand the bully is for me the most impressive and nuanced of her actions in the series. She checks him when he crosses the line (e.g. with Darlin and the rebel Tairens in Kod, and with the Aiel chiefs in TGS), but for the most part doesn't overly interfere with the management of his 'empire' or his preparations for the Last Battle.

[Suttree]

It's also important to remember, I think, that Rand the bully is in a large part a creation of Moiraine, who repeatedly encourages him to take a heavy hand towards those sworn to him, manipulating them and turning them against each other. Cadsuane's handling of Rand the bully is for me the most impressive and nuanced of her actions in the series. She checks him when he crosses the line (e.g. with Darlin and the rebel Tairens in Kod, and with the Aiel chiefs in TGS), but for the most part doesn't overly interfere with the management of his 'empire' or his preparations for the Last Battle.

 

This.

 

Keep in mind she backs him to the hilt when it is right thing to do such as when she doesn't even blink at the cleansing.

[thisguy]

RE: Rand and bullying, I think that Rand's browbeating of those who are supposedly his followers, while perhaps not morally justified, is one of the more believable human responses in the series. He's trying to save the universe from being annihilated, and has to deal with backbiting and stubborn resistance at every turn, and from every angle. The nobles from Cairhien, Tear, and Andor are obviously guilty in this regard, but they are not the only ones. The rebel AS are the smallest offenders, their biggest gaffe being the embassy's inability to see through the ruse of the 'Aiel' attack in Caemlyn, potentially putting the fate of the world on the line for the chance to teach Rand deference and respect towards AS. The Tower AS' boneheadedness here is obvious, as pointed out by Egwene in TGS. The absolute worst offenders, though, are the Aiel, due to their idiotic refusal to draw the obvious inferences from the fact that the Car'a'carn and the Dragon Reborn are the same person. That's enough to turn anyone into an impatient jerk, not to mention someone tasked with saving all of creation.

 

It's also important to remember, I think, that Rand the bully is in a large part a creation of Moiraine, who repeatedly encourages him to take a heavy hand towards those sworn to him, manipulating them and turning them against each other. Cadsuane's handling of Rand the bully is for me the most impressive and nuanced of her actions in the series. She checks him when he crosses the line (e.g. with Darlin and the rebel Tairens in Kod, and with the Aiel chiefs in TGS), but for the most part doesn't overly interfere with the management of his 'empire' or his preparations for the Last Battle.

I agree. Moiraine, maybe purposefully. A large segment of the AS population, accidentally. He knows he has to lose his life to save the world and most of the people treat him like crap, well before he starts bullying people. He also knows certain things need to get done before TG, and many people want things from him in return. Unless he learned compulsion and forced them that way, there's no other way for him to get most of these people to listen to him.

[MasterAblar]

She really didn't find the best way of dealing with him though. All her plans of dealing with him ended in failure. And before Suttree comes out of hiding, yes she brought Tam to him which forced Rand to really face what he was becoming, but since Tam pretty much ignored her script her plan for him was still a failure.

 

Which of course makes the false assumption that had he stayed on script things wouldn't have worked out which there is zero proof to support. In addition Cads brought Tam to affect change, she is a meticulous planner but one doesn't need to predict to a t how everyting will work out. It ws her decision to bring him and the plan worked. It matters not how lucky she got, it was a success. A success right up there with saving his life, springing him from the jails in Far Madding before his mind broke, holding off the forsaken so he could cleanse the taint, and of course teaching him what he needed to now to survive TG.

 

I'm pretty sure Cadsuane wanted to pull Rand back from the edge of the precipice, not push him over the edge, which is what happened. Things went in the exact opposite direction that she wanted them to. She herself says that this might have been their last chance at saving him. She clearly seems to believe that she failed, which means the way Rand fixed himself was not at all intentional. While she was at the root of it all, it was pretty clearly an accident that it led to VoG, and I tend to not give much credit when things happen by accident. That said she is still the one who worked the most at helping Rand out throughout the books, even if I don't always agree with her methods, so she gets major credit for that.

[b3arz3rg3r]

She really didn't find the best way of dealing with him though. All her plans of dealing with him ended in failure. And before Suttree comes out of hiding, yes she brought Tam to him which forced Rand to really face what he was becoming, but since Tam pretty much ignored her script her plan for him was still a failure.

 

Which of course makes the false assumption that had he stayed on script things wouldn't have worked out which there is zero proof to support. In addition Cads brought Tam to affect change, she is a meticulous planner but one doesn't need to predict to a t how everyting will work out. It ws her decision to bring him and the plan worked. It matters not how lucky she got, it was a success.

 

I can't agree. Yes, the end result is the one she wanted, but her plan still failed. She just got lucky that even though the plan failed the outcome was the one she imagined.

 

She really didn't find the best way of dealing with him though. All her plans of dealing with him ended in failure. And before Suttree comes out of hiding, yes she brought Tam to him which forced Rand to really face what he was becoming, but since Tam pretty much ignored her script her plan for him was still a failure.

 

Which of course makes the false assumption that had he stayed on script things wouldn't have worked out which there is zero proof to support. In addition Cads brought Tam to affect change, she is a meticulous planner but one doesn't need to predict to a t how everyting will work out. It ws her decision to bring him and the plan worked. It matters not how lucky she got, it was a success. A success right up there with saving his life, springing him from the jails in Far Madding before his mind broke, holding off the forsaken so he could cleanse the taint, and of course teaching him what he needed to now to survive TG.

 

I'm pretty sure Cadsuane wanted to pull Rand back from the edge of the precipice, not push him over the edge, which is what happened. Things went in the exact opposite direction that she wanted them to. She herself says that this might have been their last chance at saving him. She clearly seems to believe that she failed, which means the way Rand fixed himself was not at all intentional. While she was at the root of it all, it was pretty clearly an accident that it led to VoG, and I tend to not give much credit when things hapen by accident. That said she is still the one who worked the most at helping Rand out throughout the books, even if I don't always agree with her methods, so she gets major credit for that.

 

This I can agree with. Well, mostly. I think Moiraine did actually more for Rand though she had it far easier since Rand only truly started to lose it after she got imprisoned in Finnland. That said Cads deserves props for being one of the few truly mature and levelheaded people in the entire show. She doesn't play stupid games, she doesn't allow herself get overawed and she sticks to her convictions. Other than her, Moiraine and the great captains and perhaps the new Zen Rand are about the only ones who fit that bill.

[Maleshub]

I get it, but did the guy even know at that point that his mood would have anything to do with crops?

 

Even if he did, I wonder how many people would be in a decent mood living his life...

 

Yes, Rand knew. He read the prophecies in Tear dozens of times in many translations. And we know that Thom pretty much told him that the Dragon as one with the land (or whatever the quote) in TEotW. And Rand was obsessed with the reading and discussing the prophecies after Rhuidean (e.g. he was discussing them with Asmodean on his way from the Waste to Cairhien). So, in all likelihood, Rand knew that he affected the land.

 

I'm pretty sure Cadsuane wanted to pull Rand back from the edge of the precipice, not push him over the edge, which is what happened. Things went in the exact opposite direction that she wanted them to. She herself says that this might have been their last chance at saving him. She clearly seems to believe that she failed, which means the way Rand fixed himself was not at all intentional. While she was at the root of it all, it was pretty clearly an accident that it led to VoG, and I tend to not give much credit when things happen by accident. That said she is still the one who worked the most at helping Rand out throughout the books, even if I don't always agree with her methods, so she gets major credit for that.

 

True that Cadsuane only gets the "effort" marks for Rand's rehabilitation. But at the same time, it is fair to point out that Tam's straying from Cads orders not to mention her name during his talk with Rand led to the plan's (temporary) failure. Her plan was the only one that seemed to be working. But the failure of the execution is not entirely her fault.

 

And she and the Aiel Wise Ones were the only ones that were actually trying to do something while all the others (Min and Nynaeve included) seemed to be either at loss or have given up.

[Clouded]

I get it, but did the guy even know at that point that his mood would have anything to do with crops?

 

Even if he did, I wonder how many people would be in a decent mood living his life...

 

Yes, Rand knew. He read the prophecies in Tear dozens of times in many translations. And we know that Thom pretty much told him that the Dragon as one with the land (or whatever the quote) in TEotW. And Rand was obsessed with the reading and discussing the prophecies after Rhuidean (e.g. he was discussing them with Asmodean on his way from the Waste to Cairhien). So, in all likelihood, Rand knew that he affected the land.

 

I'm pretty sure Cadsuane wanted to pull Rand back from the edge of the precipice, not push him over the edge, which is what happened. Things went in the exact opposite direction that she wanted them to. She herself says that this might have been their last chance at saving him. She clearly seems to believe that she failed, which means the way Rand fixed himself was not at all intentional. While she was at the root of it all, it was pretty clearly an accident that it led to VoG, and I tend to not give much credit when things happen by accident. That said she is still the one who worked the most at helping Rand out throughout the books, even if I don't always agree with her methods, so she gets major credit for that.

 

True that Cadsuane only gets the "effort" marks for Rand's rehabilitation. But at the same time, it is fair to point out that Tam's straying from Cads orders not to mention her name during his talk with Rand led to the plan's (temporary) failure. Her plan was the only one that seemed to be working. But the failure of the execution is not entirely her fault.

 

And she and the Aiel Wise Ones were the only ones that were actually trying to do something while all the others (Min and Nynaeve included) seemed to be either at loss or have given up.

 

Hmm, I don't think you can argue that Rand knew he was tied to the land. He's never explicitly thought about it. While he has read the prophecies, it is difficult to tie a prophecy to an event or action, and I don't think Rand ever made the connection. In fact, most characters attribute the spoilage of food and degrading weather conditions to the Dark One's touch on the world.

[thisguy]

I get it, but did the guy even know at that point that his mood would have anything to do with crops?

 

Even if he did, I wonder how many people would be in a decent mood living his life...

 

Yes, Rand knew. He read the prophecies in Tear dozens of times in many translations. And we know that Thom pretty much told him that the Dragon as one with the land (or whatever the quote) in TEotW. And Rand was obsessed with the reading and discussing the prophecies after Rhuidean (e.g. he was discussing them with Asmodean on his way from the Waste to Cairhien). So, in all likelihood, Rand knew that he affected the land.

 

I'm pretty sure Cadsuane wanted to pull Rand back from the edge of the precipice, not push him over the edge, which is what happened. Things went in the exact opposite direction that she wanted them to. She herself says that this might have been their last chance at saving him. She clearly seems to believe that she failed, which means the way Rand fixed himself was not at all intentional. While she was at the root of it all, it was pretty clearly an accident that it led to VoG, and I tend to not give much credit when things happen by accident. That said she is still the one who worked the most at helping Rand out throughout the books, even if I don't always agree with her methods, so she gets major credit for that.

 

True that Cadsuane only gets the "effort" marks for Rand's rehabilitation. But at the same time, it is fair to point out that Tam's straying from Cads orders not to mention her name during his talk with Rand led to the plan's (temporary) failure. Her plan was the only one that seemed to be working. But the failure of the execution is not entirely her fault.

 

And she and the Aiel Wise Ones were the only ones that were actually trying to do something while all the others (Min and Nynaeve included) seemed to be either at loss or have given up.

 

Hmm, I don't think you can argue that Rand knew he was tied to the land. He's never explicitly thought about it. While he has read the prophecies, it is difficult to tie a prophecy to an event or action, and I don't think Rand ever made the connection. In fact, most characters attribute the spoilage of food and degrading weather conditions to the Dark One's touch on the world.

I agree, and even if he did know, it doesn't explain what that means. And, even if he knew what that meant, I'm sure everybody on this board has trouble staying chipper all the time and we don't have to deal with having the fate of the world on our shoulders.

[MasterAblar]

True that Cadsuane only gets the "effort" marks for Rand's rehabilitation. But at the same time, it is fair to point out that Tam's straying from Cads orders not to mention her name during his talk with Rand led to the plan's (temporary) failure. Her plan was the only one that seemed to be working. But the failure of the execution is not entirely her fault.

 

I'm prettu sure Cadsuane failed to tell him not to mention her name. At least Tam certainly claims that she had not told him how Rand regarded her. So that's really more her mistake than Tam's. Also she could have made it a little clearer to Tam just how bad Rand was at this point, because Tam was obviously quite shocked by Rand. That said it's true that Tam did not follow her script but in his defence, he claims that he tried to and Rand wouldn't open up to him at all. And I tend to think he's right on that point. You shouldn't use a scipt with your own son. To be honest I don't think Cadsuane was ever going to succeed. There was just too much mistrust from Rand. He kept her around mostly because of Min's viewing, and then later on also because she gave good advice. While she got him to listen at times, it never seemed like he was getting any better. But again that's not really on her. The simple fact that she was Aes Sedai, not to mention her hitting him a few times which was really not the smartest idea, was always going to create a huge rift between them. She was swimming against the current of a dangerous river while carrying huge rocks. So the failure of the execution is not entirely her fault no, and success was nearly impossible for her anyway.

 

And she and the Aiel Wise Ones were the only ones that were actually trying to do something while all the others (Min and Nynaeve included) seemed to be either at loss or have given up.

 

Absolutely, couldn't agree more.

[driedraspberry]

Honest question: what exactly did Cads specifically bullying Rand achieve? Her intent was admirable and she had success elsewhere, but little substantial good came from her bullying him.

[Suttree]

Honest question: what exactly did Cads specifically bullying Rand achieve? Her intent was admirable and she had success elsewhere, but little substantial good came from her bullying him.

 

Most instances of her bullying Rand(and really there are only about five in the series) tie into either attempting to guage his character or forcing him to face his inner demons. She was successful in both. What is more important to keep in mind however is how she doesn't force her way and backs him to the hilt when needed. We see this at the Cleansing, alliance with the Seanchan etc. In essence all her actions are preceded by a careful study of the situation and her actions follow accordingly.

[Maleshub]

True that Cadsuane only gets the "effort" marks for Rand's rehabilitation. But at the same time, it is fair to point out that Tam's straying from Cads orders not to mention her name during his talk with Rand led to the plan's (temporary) failure. Her plan was the only one that seemed to be working. But the failure of the execution is not entirely her fault.

 

I'm prettu sure Cadsuane failed to tell him not to mention her name. At least Tam certainly claims that she had not told him how Rand regarded her. So that's really more her mistake than Tam's. Also she could have made it a little clearer to Tam just how bad Rand was at this point, because Tam was obviously quite shocked by Rand. That said it's true that Tam did not follow her script but in his defence, he claims that he tried to and Rand wouldn't open up to him at all. And I tend to think he's right on that point. You shouldn't use a scipt with your own son. To be honest I don't think Cadsuane was ever going to succeed. There was just too much mistrust from Rand. He kept her around mostly because of Min's viewing, and then later on also because she gave good advice. While she got him to listen at times, it never seemed like he was getting any better. But again that's not really on her. The simple fact that she was Aes Sedai, not to mention her hitting him a few times which was really not the smartest idea, was always going to create a huge rift between them. She was swimming against the current of a dangerous river while carrying huge rocks. So the failure of the execution is not entirely her fault no, and success was nearly impossible for her anyway.

 

And she and the Aiel Wise Ones were the only ones that were actually trying to do something while all the others (Min and Nynaeve included) seemed to be either at loss or have given up.

 

Absolutely, couldn't agree more.

 

Regarding Tam straying from the script, this is what I was referring to

 

The Gathering Storm: The One he Lost

 

"Rand?" Tam asked. "I'm sorry. I shouldn't have brought up the Aes Sedai. She said you might be angry if I mentioned her."

I understood as Cadsuane warning him not to mention her to Rand. And it might be taken to be a general piece of advise. I lean towards the first interpretation. And in the following chapter, Nynaeve chides Thom for not doing what he was told to do:

 

"This is what you get for being wool-headed and ignoring what you are told!" Nynaeve interjected.

 

And I totally agree that Cadsuane (with the Wise Ones supporting her) could not succeed. Rand has been trying to be rid of Aes Sedai strings since The Great Hunt. He doesn't trust them at all. And all action throughout the series have taught him the lesson of never trusting an Aes Sedai. What Rand needed (and got) was a concerned, determined Aes Sedai who would not give up trying to teach him to embrace his destiny, "embrace death" as the Aiel awesomely describe it.

 

Honest question: what exactly did Cads specifically bullying Rand achieve? Her intent was admirable and she had success elsewhere, but little substantial good came from her bullying him.

 

Let me see, she stopped him from losing Logain in Algarin's manor in Tear. Rand would have been toast if Logain left the manor. And Taim would probably control the whole Black Tower if Logain doesn't oppose him. And in Arad Doman she saved him from losing the Aiel, especially two of the most loyal clan chiefs: Rhuarc and Bael; since he insulted them openly.

[MasterAblar]

Regarding Tam straying from the script, this is what I was referring to

 

The Gathering Storm: The One he Lost

"Rand?" Tam asked. "I'm sorry. I shouldn't have brought up the Aes Sedai. She said you might be angry if I mentioned her."

 

I understood as Cadsuane warning him not to mention her to Rand. And it might be taken to be a general piece of advise. I lean towards the first interpretation. And in the following chapter, Nynaeve chides Thom for not doing what he was told to do:

 

"This is what you get for being wool-headed and ignoring what you are told!" Nynaeve interjected.

 

Yeah, I suppose she did warn him, though perhaps not as strongly as she should have if Tam did so anyway. "Might be angry"? More like blow right through anger straight to outrage. To be fair she might have underestimated just how much he hated her. Because really, I don't if there was anyone Rand loathed more than her at that point, at least on the Light side, and even including the Shadow, she's near the top.

 

And I totally agree that Cadsuane (with the Wise Ones supporting her) could not succeed. Rand has been trying to be rid of Aes Sedai strings since The Great Hunt. He doesn't trust them at all. And all action throughout the series have taught him the lesson of never trusting an Aes Sedai. What Rand needed (and got) was a concerned, determined Aes Sedai who would not give up trying to teach him to embrace his destiny, "embrace death" as the Aiel awesomely describe it.

 

The problem is, I don't it was possible for Cadsuane to succed no matter how determined she was. Min's viewing was part of the problem, or rather Rand knowing about it. The viewing forced him to keep Cadsuane around when he'd rather she be as far away from him as possible, and I imagine he was pretty resentful of that. He was probably focusing more on the fact that he had to keep her around instead of what she was trying to teach him. Of course without the viewing Rand would never have kept her close by anyway so really it was a no-win situation.

 

Let me see, she stopped him from losing Logain in Algarin's manor in Tear.

 

How so?

 

And in Arad Doman she saved him from losing the Aiel, especially two of the most loyal clan chiefs: Rhuarc and Bael; since he insulted them openly.

 

I don't think the Aiel would have deserted him. Others would have but not them.

[Mr Ares]

tl;dr version: when it comes to cads, the ends justify the means. Any negative opinions on those actions are unwarranted because they worked.

Not so. You are free to dislike her and her methods, but if you wish to put forward a justification of your dislike don't be surprised if people poke holes in it. That's the problem - people are putting forward reasons which don't match with the text.

 

The irony is I really doubt the people who are Cads fanboys would be willing to deal with that behavior in their lives, saving the world be damned.

No-one is claiming it's pleasant behaviour to be on the receiving end of, only that it is reasonable, effective, and Rand's childishness means it's rather deserved.

You kid with the last bit...right? In no way does Rand deserve to be treated that way. Sure, he has a temper and can be a bully. Is Cads any better? And that's without being in Rand's impossible position.

 

Add to that, I'm not convinced Cads had no other options. She feels that way, but bullying is her default in dealing with difficult people. It just goes to show when AS do something right they go about it the worst way possible. For one she could have started their acquaintance by treating him with respect and be honest upfront, that would've been enough to distinguish her from other AS. Heck she could've achieved all her goals more quickly and at less risk. But of course that's not how AS roll, certainly not Cads.

I'm not kidding. Rand often acts childishly. He bullies people - he's far more guilty of that charge than Cadsuane has ever been. He throws tantrums when he doesn't get his way. He can't control his temper. Yes, Rand's position is difficult. But so what? Are you really saying that if you're under pressure, you're allowed to throw tantrums? If that's true, then I'd love to see you at work some day. Cads acts to force Rand to get a grip, to gain some self control.

 

As for bullying being her default option, people will often claim that but evidence is lacking. Who does she bully? She could have been open and honest, true. But what would that have gained her? As I've stated, she used her initial antagonism of Rand to judge his character. Further, Rand is deeply mistrustful of AS - she could try to be open and Rand might well consider it a ruse. As it is, her attitude did set her apart from other AS. She didn't come across as someone interested in manipulating him. As for respect, respect is earned, and measure is unceasing. Rand's position might demand respect, but his person is rather lacking. Oh, he's killed some Chosen and gained the loyalty of the Aiel - that makes him a killer and a conqueror. Rand the man is rather lacking. One of her goals is to make him a man worthy of respect, not a bully who throws temper tantrums. She won't do that by being meek and submissive. She stands up to him. When he starts to lose his temper, she smacks his bottom like he's a child. And that's the point - when he acts like a child, he is treated like one. When he acts like an adult, he is given respect. That's precisely why I think her treatment of him is justified.

 

I don't think you can necessarily call Rand's bullying childish. Though it certainly was wrong. Since TDR he had to bully the people around him or he would have gotten nowhere. He had to do so with pretty much everyone other than the Aiel. The Tairens, Cairhienen. And he had to do the same with the Aes Sedai and even the Wise Ones. Where the mundane folk essentially saw in Rand a leader no matter how dangerous and potentially mad, all female channelers treated him as someone who had to be lead instead. So Rand had to be confrontational simply to assert himself. Rand certainly took it too far and his increasingly volatile temper which resulted from the taint, his stress and his missguided attempt to kill off his emotions to emulate Aes Sedai made it a lot worse, but it is understandable.

I would say that it was childish. He was in a difficult position, I wouldn't argue with that, and bullying was a way of getting people to do what he wanted (although he was having some success even before he started down that path). Rand is young, inexperienced in politics despite his teachers, and he makes mistakes. He was mistaken to make himself harder rather than stronger, and he was mistaken to command obedience through bullying rather than strength of character. An understandable mistake for someone in his position, but a mistake nonetheless.

 

Cadsuane didn't try to set him down like a child, what she did was prod a man she knew on the brink repeatedly.

She did both. Her spanking him when he starts getting angry and losing his temper - that's exactly like one would treat a child.

 

No-one is claiming it's pleasant behaviour to be on the receiving end of, only that it is reasonable, effective, and Rand's childishness means it's rather deserved.

 

You claim it's in response to Rand's behavior, yet she started it the first time they met. So it can't be in response to his behavior, at least not his known behavior. If you're going to claim off screen she heard rumors, well I'd argue that's more childish than anything Rand has done.

I also said that it was done in order to learn about his character. In seeing how he reacts, she learns about him, and the best way to deal with him.

 

She really didn't find the best way of dealing with him though. All her plans of dealing with him ended in failure. And before Suttree comes out of hiding, yes she brought Tam to him which forced Rand to really face what he was becoming, but since Tam pretty much ignored her script her plan for him was still a failure.

Her plans were working before Semi came along. After that, things spun out of her control somewhat. True, she didn't anticipate one of the Chosen breaking free and using the Domination Band to control him to the point of choking the woman he loves, with the only way for him to escape being to break his own rule against killing women and to use the TP. How shortsighted of her. And there wasn't really anything she could do about Tam neglecting the advice she gave him, which only antagonised Rand further. You don't really refute my point - to say that things happened that were outside her ability to control or predict does not indicate that her way of dealing with him was something other than the best.

 

I actually think Egwene is very well written though a little unrealistic in her rise to power. The problem is that Sanderson absolutely butchers her character and she goes from a struggling young girl trying to earn respect to a complete harpy bitch. BS is the reason that everyone hates that character IMO.

Not quite. Egwene hate was around long before BS took over the series. It has gotten worse under him, while some of the other hatedoms aren't as active any more, but many of the problems people cite with her are rooted in the books Rj wrote, backed up with quotes from the books RJ wrote. At the heart of it, the Egwene RJ wrote is the problem, and the Egwene BS wrote is merely an extension of that problem.

 

Hmm, I actually thought BS handled Egwene rather well. But then I disliked her already so I may not have noticed that she may have lost some qualities other people liked her for.

Well, at one point Egwene hate here was enough of a problem that it was taking over the whole damn board. I can see valid reasons to like and dislike her, but there's really no getting around the fact that an awful lot of people do dislike her (and a few were extremely vocal in their dislike).

[avernite]

Her plans were working before Semi came along. After that, things spun out of her control somewhat. True, she didn't anticipate one of the Chosen breaking free and using the Domination Band to control him to the point of choking the woman he loves, with the only way for him to escape being to break his own rule against killing women and to use the TP. How shortsighted of her. And there wasn't really anything she could do about Tam neglecting the advice she gave him, which only antagonised Rand further. You don't really refute my point - to say that things happened that were outside her ability to control or predict does not indicate that her way of dealing with him was something other than the best.

 

To be honest, I though it was Min/Nynaeve who had almost achieved success when Semi came along with the domination band, if anyone. Had that been the big swing in Rand's character rather than him going down the deep end before VoG, I would not be congratulating Cadsuane on her success, I'd be congratulating Min. True, after that point Min basically gave up (and Nynaeve after Natrin's barrow) so Cadsuane was the only one still having a plan... but if her plans were upset by Semirhage so were everyone else's, and those other people's plans seemed to be working better than hers.

[Suttree]

Her plans were working before Semi came along. After that, things spun out of her control somewhat. True, she didn't anticipate one of the Chosen breaking free and using the Domination Band to control him to the point of choking the woman he loves, with the only way for him to escape being to break his own rule against killing women and to use the TP. How shortsighted of her. And there wasn't really anything she could do about Tam neglecting the advice she gave him, which only antagonised Rand further. You don't really refute my point - to say that things happened that were outside her ability to control or predict does not indicate that her way of dealing with him was something other than the best.

 

To be honest, I though it was Min/Nynaeve who had almost achieved success when Semi came along with the domination band, if anyone. Had that been the big swing in Rand's character rather than him going down the deep end before VoG, I would not be congratulating Cadsuane on her success, I'd be congratulating Min. True, after that point Min basically gave up (and Nynaeve after Natrin's barrow) so Cadsuane was the only one still having a plan... but if her plans were upset by Semirhage so were everyone else's, and those other people's plans seemed to be working better than hers.

 

What plan would that have been? As Nyn herself said...

 

TGS

"Dare we send him as he is, with that look in his eyes? Nynaeve, he's stopped caring. Nothing matters to him anymore but defeating the Dark One."

 

"Isn't that what we want him to do?"

 

"I. . . ." She stopped. "Winning won't be winning at all if Rand becomes something as bad as the Forsaken . . . We—"

 

"I understand," Nynaeve said suddenly. "Light burn me, but I do, and you're right. I just don't like the answers those conclusions are giving me."

 

"What conclusions?"

 

Nynaeve sighed. "That Cadsuane was right,"

[shortkut]

right sabout whsat? her methods or that rand needs to have emotions?

[Suttree]

right sabout whsat? her methods or that rand needs to have emotions?

 

?

 

I was responding to the other poster saying Min/Nyn had a plan which was is obviously not the case. Hey btw are you going to take a crack at Mr Ares response to you above?

[shortkut]

i did not see his post. the other thread was closed due to egging people on so i'm going to ignore everything not book related, as you should, unless you like starting stuff

 

i meant what was ny referring to? cads plan or methods.

[Suttree]

i did not see his post. the other thread was closed due to egging people on so i'm going to ignore everything not book related, as you should, unless you like starting stuff

 

i meant what was ny referring to? cads plan or methods.

 

Wait what? He responded to something you said after that other thread was closed. In addition he refers specifically to events in the text contradicting a viewpoint. Not sure how raising a valid point in response to a post is egging on? Shrug, no worries though if it's something you don't want to touch.

 

Again the point to my quote above is the other poster saying Min and Nyn had a plan to deal with Rand. The quote shows that they did not.

 

As for what Nyn was saying as others have put forth in old threads the plan/methods are intertwined. All the pushing/prodding etc was a balancing act in order to get Rand to the point of needing to ask for himself. She came upon this method after her testing of character earlier.

 

WH

“But I must wait for him to come to me. You see the way he runs roughshod over Alanna and the others. It will be hard enough teaching him, if he does ask. He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won't learn at all."

[Maleshub]

Let me see, she stopped him from losing Logain in Algarin's manor in Tear.

 

How so?

 

And in Arad Doman she saved him from losing the Aiel, especially two of the most loyal clan chiefs: Rhuarc and Bael; since he insulted them openly.

 

I don't think the Aiel would have deserted him. Others would have but not them.

 

Re: Logain, I read his meeting with Rand as a confrontation before Cadsuane put her foot down. Rand openly questioned Logain's motives for standing against Taim; and Logain openly defied the Dragon Reborn. I don't think Rand's state of mind allowed him to accept open defiance. And I thought that Logain would surely leave Rand or stand aside after the confrontation.

 

I don't know if the timing of that confrontation would allow Logain to leave before the Shadowspawn arrive; but a Rand - Logain split would definitely allow Taim's grip on the BT to be more firm.

 

Re: the Aiel, we know that the Wise Ones are working behind the scenes to keep the clan chiefs aligned behind Rand. We have a PoV from Aviendha where she ponders on how hard the WOs are working to keep Tomalin (sp) from just picking up and going back to the 3-Fold Land. And I saw Rand's arrogant dealing with Rhuarc and Bael in Arad Doman as a potential explosive confrontation that might lead Rhuarc and Bael to respond to the disrespect and indignity shown to them. It would have been a temporary crisis; or it could have hit the Arad Doman clans with a new wave of the "bleakness." But I thought that Cadsuane "saved the day" when she put her foot down. To me, that is Cadsuane's best moment in the series so far.

[MasterAblar]

Re: Logain, I read his meeting with Rand as a confrontation before Cadsuane put her foot down. Rand openly questioned Logain's motives for standing against Taim; and Logain openly defied the Dragon Reborn. I don't think Rand's state of mind allowed him to accept open defiance. And I thought that Logain would surely leave Rand or stand aside after the confrontation.

 

I don't know if the timing of that confrontation would allow Logain to leave before the Shadowspawn arrive; but a Rand - Logain split would definitely allow Taim's grip on the BT to be more firm.

 

Re: the Aiel, we know that the Wise Ones are working behind the scenes to keep the clan chiefs aligned behind Rand. We have a PoV from Aviendha where she ponders on how hard the WOs are working to keep Tomalin (sp) from just picking up and going back to the 3-Fold Land. And I saw Rand's arrogant dealing with Rhuarc and Bael in Arad Doman as a potential explosive confrontation that might lead Rhuarc and Bael to respond to the disrespect and indignity shown to them. It would have been a temporary crisis; or it could have hit the Arad Doman clans with a new wave of the "bleakness." But I thought that Cadsuane "saved the day" when she put her foot down. To me, that is Cadsuane's best moment in the series so far.

 

Hmm, I suppose I never saw those situations as quite so dangerous. I figured both the Aiel and Logain would deal acting with it and move on, because the alternative isn't really a good one. Whether they like it or not Rand is the key to victory so unless they want to lose they should probably stand by him. Even if Rand is acting like a fool (not to mention a complete ass, especially towards the Aiel). Incidentally, no, Logain would not have had time enough to leave, the shadow attacked right afterwards. I agree that the moment with the Aiel was one of Cadsuane's best moments. The scene in Tear as well, although I admit I was rather annoyed with her because at least Rand and Logain were talking about the whole BT situation, and not pretending it didn't exist. And she kind of cut it short. Well actually she just told them to be polite but it had the same result. Also I always found it was funny how she's asking them to be polite to each other. I get why she asks it but still. Possibly a big shadow infestation in the BT, one of the worst thing that could have happened, and you want them to talk nicely to each other? Yeah, not gonna happen.

[Maleshub]

Hmm, I suppose I never saw those situations as quite so dangerous. I figured both the Aiel and Logain would deal acting with it and move on, because the alternative isn't really a good one. Whether they like it or not Rand is the key to victory so unless they want to lose they should probably stand by him. Even if Rand is acting like a fool (not to mention a complete ass, especially towards the Aiel). Incidentally, no, Logain would not have had time enough to leave, the shadow attacked right afterwards. I agree that the moment with the Aiel was one of Cadsuane's best moments. The scene in Tear as well, although I admit I was rather annoyed with her because at least Rand and Logain were talking about the whole BT situation, and not pretending it didn't exist. And she kind of cut it short. Well actually she just told them to be polite but it had the same result. Also I always found it was funny how she's asking them to be polite to each other. I get why she asks it but still. Possibly a big shadow infestation in the BT, one of the worst thing that could have happened, and you want them to talk nicely to each other? Yeah, not gonna happen.

 

I didn't see Cadsuane's actions centering on politeness as an effort to teach him just manners; but rather an attempt to get him to change his frame of mind. He was an Emperor who would not take no for an answer. The fate of the world is on his shoulders. And he needed to know why he was fighting (Tam's question). Rand didn't know why and how he should fight his battle; and needed guidance at a time when he thought that any form of guidance or advice was putting strings on him to manipulate him. He was so blind and his mind so clouded (by insanity among other things) that he really needed to learn the mannerisms of leadership.

 

It took Moiraine's tutoring, Cadsuane's prodding, Tam's guidance, and divine intervention to get Rand in the right frame of mind to win TG for the Light.

[pilgram]

Re: Logain, I read his meeting with Rand as a confrontation before Cadsuane put her foot down. Rand openly questioned Logain's motives for standing against Taim; and Logain openly defied the Dragon Reborn. I don't think Rand's state of mind allowed him to accept open defiance. And I thought that Logain would surely leave Rand or stand aside after the confrontation.

 

I don't know if the timing of that confrontation would allow Logain to leave before the Shadowspawn arrive; but a Rand - Logain split would definitely allow Taim's grip on the BT to be more firm.

 

Re: the Aiel, we know that the Wise Ones are working behind the scenes to keep the clan chiefs aligned behind Rand. We have a PoV from Aviendha where she ponders on how hard the WOs are working to keep Tomalin (sp) from just picking up and going back to the 3-Fold Land. And I saw Rand's arrogant dealing with Rhuarc and Bael in Arad Doman as a potential explosive confrontation that might lead Rhuarc and Bael to respond to the disrespect and indignity shown to them. It would have been a temporary crisis; or it could have hit the Arad Doman clans with a new wave of the "bleakness." But I thought that Cadsuane "saved the day" when she put her foot down. To me, that is Cadsuane's best moment in the series so far.

 

Hmm, I suppose I never saw those situations as quite so dangerous. I figured both the Aiel and Logain would deal acting with it and move on, because the alternative isn't really a good one. Whether they like it or not Rand is the key to victory so unless they want to lose they should probably stand by him. Even if Rand is acting like a fool (not to mention a complete ass, especially towards the Aiel). Incidentally, no, Logain would not have had time enough to leave, the shadow attacked right afterwards. I agree that the moment with the Aiel was one of Cadsuane's best moments. The scene in Tear as well, although I admit I was rather annoyed with her because at least Rand and Logain were talking about the whole BT situation, and not pretending it didn't exist. And she kind of cut it short. Well actually she just told them to be polite but it had the same result. Also I always found it was funny how she's asking them to be polite to each other. I get why she asks it but still. Possibly a big shadow infestation in the BT, one of the worst thing that could have happened, and you want them to talk nicely to each other? Yeah, not gonna happen.

 

Well, I don't understand what was she (and the rest for that mater) even doing there in the first place. That was decisively BT business and discussing it before prominent member(s) of second-most hostile organization (first being the Shadow) certainly wouldn't convince Logain that Rand has best interests of Asha'man at heart or, given the topic of conversation, that he gives a damn at all. Further, the way she decided to participate in conversation was unhelpful, confrontational and undermining towards Rand.