Least Favorite Character

[thisguy]

She took him from Edmond's Field and saved him and his village from destruction within the first 100 pages. Taught him the Game of Houses and how to read and use people. He even says that he wouldn't know how to deal with the nobles without her tutelage. Saves him from Lanfear at the risk of her own life.

 

Oh yeah, saves him from Bel'al in Tear.

 

Edit to add: She's bad ass. She also warns him about the other AS which seems to be some of the best advice anyone's given him after rereading LoC.

 

To clarify, Moir is awesome. Totally one of my fav characters and one of the best BA. She played warning him about As very smart without knowing who the BA was after her search ws forced underground by their actions. She did a decent job shaping him for all that she had to keep switiching ways to control him. I just view Cads's plan and direct actions as being far bigger on a global/save the world scale.

Fair enough. It's also a question of timing. Cads is there at the right time for that. Moir is a feast for aliens at that point.

[MarkDiLillo]

Have not had time to skim this whole thread, but my least favorite is Elayne. She is utterly useless, helpeless, and boring.

 

I actually think Egwene is very well written though a little unrealistic in her rise to power. The problem is that Sanderson absolutely butchers her character and she goes from a struggling young girl trying to earn respect to a complete harpy bitch. BS is the reason that everyone hates that character IMO.

[thisguy]

I don't hate her, she just annoys me. And, I felt that way long before BS came on board. Aside from the love interest part, you're right, Elayne doesn't have any huge role to play in the books that I can think of. She never really bothered me, though.

 

On a side note: on one of these threads someone was asking what her hair color was as it's unclear. I agree. She starts out either red or gold-red and by the LoC is just yellow or golden haired. No red mentioned.

[Clouded]

Fair enough. It's also a question of timing. Cads is there at the right time for that. Moir is a feast for aliens at that point.

 

Haha, I love this description.

[David Selig]

I actually think Egwene is very well written though a little unrealistic in her rise to power. The problem is that Sanderson absolutely butchers her character and she goes from a struggling young girl trying to earn respect to a complete harpy bitch. BS is the reason that everyone hates that character IMO.

There have always been a lot of people hating Egwene among the WoT fandom. She was widely disliked long before Sanderson came on board.

[Maleshub]

Also I feel I need to post this:

 

"Al'Thor. She had to face the truth: she had bungled her handling of him."

-TGS, "A Promise to Lews Therin" p. 474

 

Straight from the horses mouth. She herself believes that her methods of "handling" him were incorrect. So by arguing for her methods, you're disagreeing with Cadsuane. If she were here, she would slap you. =)

 

Nice quote. I'm surprised no one commented on it since it was posted. Although it cannot be taken as an accurate assessment of failure because it has a strong tang of frustration in it. But in the end, Cads was the driving force that triggered the events that led to Rand's VoG. Without her, the DO would have taken Rand.

[Suttree]

Also I feel I need to post this:

 

"Al'Thor. She had to face the truth: she had bungled her handling of him."

-TGS, "A Promise to Lews Therin" p. 474

 

Straight from the horses mouth. She herself believes that her methods of "handling" him were incorrect. So by arguing for her methods, you're disagreeing with Cadsuane. If she were here, she would slap you. =)

 

Nice quote. I'm surprised no one commented on it since it was posted. Although it cannot be taken as an accurate assessment of failure because it has a strong tang of frustration in it. But in the end, Cads was the driving force that triggered the events that led to Rand's VoG. Without her, the DO would have taken Rand.

 

Good catch Theo, I missed that. Yes we know Cads is too hard on herself and in addition the quote was taken out of context. Far from giving up she goes on to say...

 

The poor, foolish boy. He should never have had to suffer collaring at the hands of one of the Forsaken; that would only remind him of the times he had been beaten and caged by Aes Sedai. It would make her job more difficult. If not impossible.

 

That was the question she had to face now. Was he beyond saving? Was it too late to change him? And if it was, what—if anything—could she do? The Dragon Reborn had to meet the Dark One at Shayol Ghul. If he did not, all was lost. But what if allowing him to meet the Dark One would be equally disastrous?

 

Of course we know she soldiers on which brings us to these quotes:

 

Per Nyn

 

"Dare we send him as he is, with that look in his eyes? Nynaeve, he's stopped caring. Nothing matters to him anymore but defeating the Dark One."

 

"Isn't that what we want him to do?"

 

"I. . . ." She stopped. "Winning won't be winning at all if Rand becomes something as bad as the Forsaken . . . We—"

 

"I understand," Nynaeve said suddenly. "Light burn me, but I do, and you're right. I just don't like the answers those conclusions are giving me."

 

"What conclusions?"

 

Nynaeve sighed. "That Cadsuane was right,"

 

[tGS; 37, A Force of Light].

 

&

 

Rand

 

ToM

"What has happened to you?" she found herself asking as she leaned forward on the Amyrlin Seat.

 

"I was broken," Rand said, hands behind his back. "And then, remarkably, I was reforged. I think he almost had me, Egwene. It was Cadsuane who set me to fixing it...

 

So it was a decent attempt by Shen but it comes up far short when looked at the story as a whole. Again it took a lucky twist, but her plan per Rand was a success. The characters not only admit it but the evidence is in text for all to see as well.

[driedraspberry]

Cads more successful than Moiraine? Let's remember that Rand took Moiraine's advice to heart and trusted them 100%. He tailored much of his actions based on what she taught him long after her "death". Rand's distrust of Cads nearly drew him to kill his father. Sorry but there is no comparison.

 

I won't say Cads ended up more successful than Moiraine, because I don't attribute Rand's "return from the dark path" to her. But, you must admit there was an inherent flaw in Moiraine's method of handling Rand. Rand would only listen to her if he was willing to accept her advice. There were many times where he simply refused to hear her advice, telling her to cool off. Moiraine would not have been able to convince Rand to change any more than Cadsuane, or anyone else. Rand simply would've refused to hear that his decisions were wrong.

 

Cadsuane's methods got him to take advice he did not want to hear and do things he did not want to do. We saw this when she ordered that Rand must be civil to Aes Sedai and to fellow Asha'man. Cadsuane's methods do more than Moiraine's ever could.

 

I would attribute that to Min. If Moiraine had as much a leg up with Rand she'd have a smooth ride with him.

 

What Moiraine actually did was find a way to make Rand absolutely trust her. There were instances where he told her to cool off yes, but there were much more of those where Moiraine sneaked her valuable guidance by talking while he was eating etc.

 

Let's be real, without Min's viewing Rand wouldn't have let Cads anywhere near him.

 

I just find it odd that people have such a problem with Cads but always praise Moir. Don't get me wrong I really like her, but in the end her intial method of controlling him didn't work so she tried another in submitting. As Luckers recently said:

 

"She submitted in order to gain influence--and let's not forget her greatest betrayal of Rand (going behind his back to try and convince the Wise Ones to break the Aiel away from him and not cross the Dragonwall) ocurred AFTER she submitted."

 

Not only would Moir's method not have worked like Cad's did, for all that Cads is deemd uppity and mean she has always backed him to the hilt. Further her actions in protecting him and swearing to do what is best for him, not herself and the WT ring far more honest than Moir's own actions in which she submitted to gain further control and then played out her subsequent betrayals..

 

The assertion that Cads was more successful with Rand than Moiraine is simply not true. Moiraine molded the DR out of a farm boy. He may have not listened to her in regards to the Aiel, but that was one case where Rand felt absolutely certain about his decision. I can't recall a situation like this with Cads.

 

As to Moiraine vs Cads; we've seen the former interact with Rand (and the whole 2R lot) through many different stages. Sure, she failed at times, but that only caused her to reevaluate her methods and gain grounds. She's been absolutely brilliant in that regard. While Cads has intentions as good as Mor's, I don't see her as versatile nor anywhere as competent in regards to Rand.

 

What I was trying to convery is after Moir submitted to further control him she was still not listening and going behind his back to try to affect change such as with the Aiel and WO's example above. It's not about him not listening. It's about her submitting and then going behind his back in an act of betrayal instead of merely advising. Cads is the opposite. Once she knows Randhas made up his mind she backs him to the hilt. Think of the cleansing in which she didn't even blink when she realized what he need to do and then want on to construct a defensive plan allowing him to accomplish the task(keep in mind Rand didn't give a moments thought to who his channeling would attract).

 

WH.

 

Forgive me, Cadsuane," Kumira broke into the silence, heeling her dapple forward. "Young man, have you considered the possibility of failure? Have you considered the consequences of failure?"

"I must ask the same question," Nesune said sharply. She sat very straight in her saddle, and her dark eyes met Rand's gaze levelly. "By everything I have read, the attempt to use those sa'angreal may result in disaster. Together, they might be strong enough to crack the world like an egg."

Like an egg! Lews Therin agreed. They were never tested, never tried. This is insane! he shrieked. You are mad! Mad!

"The last I heard," Rand told the sisters, "one Asha'man in fifty had gone mad and had to be put down like a rabid dog. More will have, by now. There is a risk to doing this, but it's all maybe and might. If I don't try, the certainty is that more and more men will go mad, maybe scores, maybe all of us, and sooner or later it will be too many to be killed easily. Will you enjoy waiting for the Last Battle with a hundred rabid Asha'man wandering about, or two hundred, or five? And maybe me one of them? How long will the world survive that?" He spoke to the two Browns, but it was Cadsuane who he watched. Her almost black eyes never left him. He needed to keep her with him, but if she tried to talk him out of it, he would reject her advice no matter the consequences. If she tried to stop him . . . ? Saidin raged inside him.

"Will you do the deed here?" she asked.

"In Shadar Logoth," he told her, and she nodded.

"A fitting place," she said, "if we are to risk destroying the world."

"

 

Add on to that her saving him in the fog, rescuing him from Elaida's clutches and possibly a broken mind from the cells of Far Madding and most importantly her grand plan to teach him what was necesarry, leading to his epiphany on DM, so the world was not doomed with him winning TG. Rand himself admits she was successful in this. Not sure what you feel Moir has done that is on the same level as any of that?

 

I see what you mean, but the Rand Moiraine was dealing with was a wide-eyed country boy with no understanding of world politics. The man Cads is advising has received a lot of training (thanks to Moiraine) and proven himself in dealing with the matters at hand.

 

As to saving his life Moiraine killed 2 forsaken just in time. And most importantly sheltered him when he was his most vulnerable. Without Moiraine Rand would be easy prey for the DO, if not killed off already. At best he'd be an ignorant WT puppet, hardly the force he has turned out. There are many people who have helped Rand in important ways, but Moiraine is right at the top.

[Maleshub]

I see what you mean, but the Rand Moiraine was dealing with was a wide-eyed country boy with no understanding of world politics. The man Cads is advising has received a lot of training (thanks to Moiraine) and proven himself in dealing with the matters at hand.

 

Another difference is that Moiraine wasn't dealing with the level of taint-induced insanity (and narcissism) that Cadsuane had to deal with.

[thisguy]

As for Moiraine backing Rand - It just occurred to me she knew the whole time that the bard was Ish and told him in the letter to be careful. Never once stepped in. There's something else that's tickling my mind that she didn't even argue with him about.

[Maleshub]

As for Moiraine backing Rand - It just occurred to me she knew the whole time that the bard was Ish and told him in the letter to be careful. Never once stepped in. There's something else that's tickling my mind that she didn't even argue with him about.

 

She knew that the Jasin Nateal (sp) was Asmodean. And she told him that she knew that Lanfear was after him. (If I remember correctly). And she told him not to trust any Aes Sedai who wore the Shawl before he was proclaimed.

[driedraspberry]

I see what you mean, but the Rand Moiraine was dealing with was a wide-eyed country boy with no understanding of world politics. The man Cads is advising has received a lot of training (thanks to Moiraine) and proven himself in dealing with the matt at hand.

 

Another difference is that Moiraine wasn't dealing with the level of taint-induced insanity (and narcissism) that Cadsuane had to deal with.

 

Sure, but she had to deal with Rand's reluctance, adolescent emoness, his suspicion of AS and specifically she herself, and his general ignorance. Point is Rand has always been difficult, just in different ways. Convincing a boy to claim himself as the most hated, feared person in the world is hardly a cake walk. And unlike Cads, Moiraine didn't have anyone foretelling the importance of her lessons to him. Cads was extremely lucky to be kept around to be of use. Moiraine had to do that part for herself.

[Maleshub]

I see what you mean, but the Rand Moiraine was dealing with was a wide-eyed country boy with no understanding of world politics. The man Cads is advising has received a lot of training (thanks to Moiraine) and proven himself in dealing with the matt at hand.

 

Another difference is that Moiraine wasn't dealing with the level of taint-induced insanity (and narcissism) that Cadsuane had to deal with.

 

Sure, but she had to deal with Rand's reluctance, adolescent emoness, his suspicion of AS and specifically she herself, and his general ignorance. Point is Rand has always been difficult, just in different ways. Convincing a boy to claim himself as the most hated, feared person in the world is hardly s walk of cake. And unlike Cads, Rand didn't have anyone foretelling the importance of her lessons.

 

But Rand's difficulty and his straying from his path grew worse with time. He thinks to himself that things to have turned for the worse since Moiraine's disappearance. Also, the taint's effect is cumulative. His mind was much more tainted with Cadsuane than with Moiraine. Nynaeve's delving in Tear in ToM is indicative of how much the taint seeped into his mind.

[Suttree]

Sure, but she had to deal with Rand's reluctance, adolescent emoness, his suspicion of AS and specifically she herself, and his general ignorance. Point is Rand has always been difficult, just in different ways.

 

Are you really equating that in any way to dealing Dark Rand?!

[driedraspberry]

I see what you mean, but the Rand Moiraine was dealing with was a wide-eyed country boy with no understanding of world politics. The man Cads is advising has received a lot of training (thanks to Moiraine) and proven himself in dealing with the matt at hand.

 

Another difference is that Moiraine wasn't dealing with the level of taint-induced insanity (and narcissism) that Cadsuane had to deal with.

 

Sure, but she had to deal with Rand's reluctance, adolescent emoness, his suspicion of AS and specifically she herself, and his general ignorance. Point is Rand has always been difficult, just in different ways. Convincing a boy to claim himself as the most hated, feared person in the world is hardly s walk of cake. And unlike Cads, Rand didn't have anyone foretelling the importance of her lessons.

 

But Rand's difficulty and his straying from his path grew worse with time. He thinks to himself that things to have turned for the worse since Moiraine's disappearance. Also, the taint's effect is cumulative. His mind was much more tainted with Cadsuane than with Moiraine. Nynaeve's delving in Tear in ToM is indicative of how much the taint seeped into his mind.

 

The taint did grow worse, but that doesn't change the fact that Cad's Rand was a man resigned to his fate. Rand's adamant reluctance was entirely another monster Moiraine had to conquer.

 

In any case, whatever Rand's condition he had his most trusted person tell him that he needs Cads. There was little Cads could do for him to set her aside. Moiraine, however, had to find her own way to Rand.

[Durinax]

I see what you mean, but the Rand Moiraine was dealing with was a wide-eyed country boy with no understanding of world politics. The man Cads is advising has received a lot of training (thanks to Moiraine) and proven himself in dealing with the matt at hand.

 

Another difference is that Moiraine wasn't dealing with the level of taint-induced insanity (and narcissism) that Cadsuane had to deal with.

 

Sure, but she had to deal with Rand's reluctance, adolescent emoness, his suspicion of AS and specifically she herself, and his general ignorance. Point is Rand has always been difficult, just in different ways. Convincing a boy to claim himself as the most hated, feared person in the world is hardly a cake walk. And unlike Cads, Moiraine didn't have anyone foretelling the importance of her lessons to him. Cads was extremely lucky to be kept around to be of use. Moiraine had to do that part for herself.

cads was fortunate that Min was about to give rand that viewing

[Durinax]

Sure, but she had to deal with Rand's reluctance, adolescent emoness, his suspicion of AS and specifically she herself, and his general ignorance. Point is Rand has always been difficult, just in different ways.

 

Are you really equating that in any way to dealing Dark Rand?!

to be honest Cads didn't really deal directly with Dark Rand

[Suttree]

Sure, but she had to deal with Rand's reluctance, adolescent emoness, his suspicion of AS and specifically she herself, and his general ignorance. Point is Rand has always been difficult, just in different ways.

 

Are you really equating that in any way to dealing Dark Rand?!

to be honest Cads didn't really deal directly with Dark Rand

 

That is splitting hairs. Min was the final straw...he had been well along all the way back to tPoD when his arrogance soared leading to him slaughtering his own men in the Damona campaign.

[driedraspberry]

Sure, but she had to deal with Rand's reluctance, adolescent emoness, his suspicion of AS and specifically she herself, and his general ignorance. Point is Rand has always been difficult, just in different ways.

 

Are you really equating that in any way to dealing Dark Rand?!

 

No, but it's not like Moiraine had an easy time. I seriously doubt Cads would've been able to do for Rand what Moiraine has done. The fact is she achieved her place with Rand through no merits of her own.

[Maleshub]

The taint did grow worse, but that doesn't change the fact that Cad's Rand was a man resigned to his fate. Rand's adamant reluctance was entirely another monster Moiraine had to conquer.

 

In any case, whatever Rand's condition he had his most trusted person tell him that he needs Cads. There was little Cads could do for him to set her aside. Moiraine, however, had to find her own way to Rand.

 

Regarding Rand and his fate, he was resigned to it after The Great Hunt. We start The Dragon Reborn with Rand under Moiraine's control in his Mountains of Mist retreat. But that doesn't deny Moiraine's role in tutoring him and prodding him towards becoming a leader (she did convince Siuan to send him with Ingtar to recover the HoV, and named him Ingtar's deputy). And we cannot also deny Lanfear's role in prodding Rand towards greatness and leadership.

 

Moiraine came to Rand when he was very vulnerable. He needed her to escape Trollocs and Fades. He knew that his life depended on her. Cadsuane on the other hand had to reign in a very arrogant Emporer who thought that the world should bow to him and come under his command to fight the Last Battle. Which is more difficult? (And I know that Min's was the key to Rand keeping Cads around him).

[Durinax]

Sure, but she had to deal with Rand's reluctance, adolescent emoness, his suspicion of AS and specifically she herself, and his general ignorance. Point is Rand has always been difficult, just in different ways.

 

Are you really equating that in any way to dealing Dark Rand?!

to be honest Cads didn't really deal directly with Dark Rand

 

That is splitting hairs. Min was the final straw...he had been well along all the way back to tPoD when his arrogance soared leading to him slaughtering his own men in the Damona campaign.

not really, dark rand was specifically after the Min incident, Hard Rand was before that, the distinction being that Dark Rand would have killed anyone who got in his way, rather than just ride roughshod over them like Hard Rand usually did

[Suttree]

Sure, but she had to deal with Rand's reluctance, adolescent emoness, his suspicion of AS and specifically she herself, and his general ignorance. Point is Rand has always been difficult, just in different ways.

 

Are you really equating that in any way to dealing Dark Rand?!

to be honest Cads didn't really deal directly with Dark Rand

 

That is splitting hairs. Min was the final straw...he had been well along all the way back to tPoD when his arrogance soared leading to him slaughtering his own men in the Damona campaign.

not really, dark rand was specifically after the Min incident, Hard Rand was before that, the distinction being that Dark Rand would have killed anyone who got in his way, rather than just ride roughshod over them like Hard Rand usually did

 

So all the food spoilage and what not before that was because he was "hard Rand". No of course not, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land." I do see your distinction though.

[Maleshub]

Sure, but she had to deal with Rand's reluctance, adolescent emoness, his suspicion of AS and specifically she herself, and his general ignorance. Point is Rand has always been difficult, just in different ways.

 

Are you really equating that in any way to dealing Dark Rand?!

to be honest Cads didn't really deal directly with Dark Rand

 

That is splitting hairs. Min was the final straw...he had been well along all the way back to tPoD when his arrogance soared leading to him slaughtering his own men in the Damona campaign.

not really, dark rand was specifically after the Min incident, Hard Rand was before that, the distinction being that Dark Rand would have killed anyone who got in his way, rather than just ride roughshod over them like Hard Rand usually did

 

Min's incident was the final straw; but Rand's darkness was cumulative.

[thisguy]

honestly - I don't blame rand for the food spoilage. Yes, he's directly linked but I'd like to see somebody with a normal temperment stay chipper after the last 2-3 years of his life.

[Durinax]

Sure, but she had to deal with Rand's reluctance, adolescent emoness, his suspicion of AS and specifically she herself, and his general ignorance. Point is Rand has always been difficult, just in different ways.

 

Are you really equating that in any way to dealing Dark Rand?!

to be honest Cads didn't really deal directly with Dark Rand

 

That is splitting hairs. Min was the final straw...he had been well along all the way back to tPoD when his arrogance soared leading to him slaughtering his own men in the Damona campaign.

not really, dark rand was specifically after the Min incident, Hard Rand was before that, the distinction being that Dark Rand would have killed anyone who got in his way, rather than just ride roughshod over them like Hard Rand usually did

 

So all the food spoilage and what not before that was because he was "hard Rand". No of course not, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land."

I don't know what that quote was for, because in the context it makes no sense, there is a distinct difference between the two mindsets, you cannot just say he was dark rand since tPoD or whatever, he was in a very different mindset compared to dark rand