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Irritation..


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I constantly see people saying that at least one of the main three should have died at some point, to create more suspense or some rubbish.

Problem there is that their survival is one of the most important components of a good-guy ending. Seen through Min's viewings when Rand and Perrin are together (little lights going into shadow).

 

That said, if it wasn't crucial that they survived, it would have been nice for one of them - or at least one of the other peripherals to die.

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No one important save Theoden died in LotR, and I still like it.

 

Boromir, Denetor, the Witch King, gollum, Eomer

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Eomer didn't die, did he? (at least not in the movies. Been a while since I last read the books). Sauruman and wormtail/tongue/creepy-dude also died. Galadriel's son died (forgot his name) in Two Towers. And in a way Frodo and Bilbo died too, though that was depicted rather euforically by sailing off to Valinor. Gandalf died, but was ressurrected.

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Eomer didn't die, did he? (at least not in the movies. Been a while since I last read the books). Sauruman and wormtail/tongue/creepy-dude also died. Galadriel's son died (forgot his name) in Two Towers. And in a way Frodo and Bilbo died too, though that was depicted rather euforically by sailing off to Valinor. Gandalf died, but was ressurrected.

 

Eomer becomes King of the Mark, Sauruman is killed by Wormtail.

I think you are confusing the movie version with the books. In the movies Jackson took liberty and added the scene you are talking about, though the elf that died at Helms deep isn't Galadriel's son.

When Frodo and Bilbo sail off they are more or less going off to live forever, not to die.

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Yep, I'm basing myself on the movies since it's been a while that I read the books. But the elf that died, was Gala's son, I'm pretty sure.

 

Frodo and Bilbo go indeed off to live forever in Valinor, which can just as easily be a metaphore for eternal life after death (Tolkien was fiercely religious, after all). It just depends how one looks at it. Though while Men were given the 'gift' of death, while the Elves were not (their dead wait in the Hall of something or other till the end of time), I'm not sure where Hobbits would stand in that equasion. Don't remember reading anything about those in the silmarillion concerning their deaths.

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Haldir? No, he's just a regular nobody, a marchwarden. Jackson made him grossly over important in the movies, but in the books his only appearance is to take fellowship into custody when they enter Lothlorien, and lead them to Caras Galadhon, the city of the Galadhrims. Galadriel and Celeborn only have 1 child, Celebrían, who is married to Elrond.

Edited by Manscher
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When Frodo and Bilbo sail off they are more or less going off to live forever, not to die.

 

No, they went to die. In fact they die a lot sooner in the Blessed Lands than they would have done if they remained in Middle Earth. It's just the way of Valinor. Think of their lives as candles.. they burnt out a lot quicker in the West. Only creatures belonging to the Circle of the World like the Elves can live in Valinor. We do not know what happens to Dwarves and Men and races derived from Men like Hobbits are destined to leave the Circle of the World and join Eru again where they will Sing a new world into existence.

 

Frodo and Bilbo simply went so that they could find some small peace before the end. Frodo was ever restless and changed after his journey and his wound that he received at Weathertop was a constant ache to him. And in fact all the Ring-Bearers were granted the privilege to journey whenever they desired. Gimli was the only Dwarf to ever see Valinor's shores. Merry, Pippin and Samwise also sailed.

 

The Lord of the Rings had a very bitter-sweet ending if one is willing to look at the larger picture of things.

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Yep, I'm basing myself on the movies since it's been a while that I read the books. But the elf that died, was Gala's son, I'm pretty sure.

 

Frodo and Bilbo go indeed off to live forever in Valinor, which can just as easily be a metaphore for eternal life after death (Tolkien was fiercely religious, after all). It just depends how one looks at it. Though while Men were given the 'gift' of death, while the Elves were not (their dead wait in the Hall of something or other till the end of time), I'm not sure where Hobbits would stand in that equasion. Don't remember reading anything about those in the silmarillion concerning their deaths.

 

The Halls of Mandos are like the Catholic Teaching of Purgatory. Dead Elves stay there and cleanse themselves. Likely through deep meditation etc. Look at Glorfindel, he died in the First Age killing a Balrog, spent his time in the Halls of Mandos, and was then asked to go back to Middle Earth to help the Free Peoples. The only Elf who was allowed to return.

 

The Blessed Land isn't really like the Catholic Heaven Tolkien (and my self) believe in. It's much more closer to the Garden of Eden. The Gift of Men is more appropriate to the Catholic Heaven. When Men (and races like Hobbits) die they join Eru and they will prepare to "Sing" a new world into existence after the End of the World. It's basically like the Catholic Teaching that we will enjoy the Beatific Vision when we enter Heaven, sing God's glory and eventually be resurrected at the End of Times.

 

We do not know what happens to Dwarves and we do not know what happens to the Elves in the end. It's possible that their life-spans are actually only as long as the world's existence. Men are truly immortal however.

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As for the OP, I honestly do not care who lives or dies as long as it is done right. Even as regards my favourite characters like Rand, Min, Nyn, Lan etc. In fact the only character I actively want to die is Lan and it isn't due to any hatred for the character but because I think his death would serve to bring the character full circle in a way. It would just be so.. appropriate. But it would have to be done right. Nyn' shouldn't break down like a little girl etc. She would take it in her stride and become stronger for it and want to live etc.

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Yep, I'm basing myself on the movies since it's been a while that I read the books. But the elf that died, was Gala's son, I'm pretty sure.

 

Frodo and Bilbo go indeed off to live forever in Valinor, which can just as easily be a metaphore for eternal life after death (Tolkien was fiercely religious, after all). It just depends how one looks at it. Though while Men were given the 'gift' of death, while the Elves were not (their dead wait in the Hall of something or other till the end of time), I'm not sure where Hobbits would stand in that equasion. Don't remember reading anything about those in the silmarillion concerning their deaths.

 

The Halls of Mandos are like the Catholic Teaching of Purgatory. Dead Elves stay there and cleanse themselves. Likely through deep meditation etc. Look at Glorfindel, he died in the First Age killing a Balrog, spent his time in the Halls of Mandos, and was then asked to go back to Middle Earth to help the Free Peoples. The only Elf who was allowed to return.

 

The Blessed Land isn't really like the Catholic Heaven Tolkien (and my self) believe in. It's much more closer to the Garden of Eden. The Gift of Men is more appropriate to the Catholic Heaven. When Men (and races like Hobbits) die they join Eru and they will prepare to "Sing" a new world into existence after the End of the World. It's basically like the Catholic Teaching that we will enjoy the Beatific Vision when we enter Heaven, sing God's glory and eventually be resurrected at the End of Times.

 

We do not know what happens to Dwarves and we do not know what happens to the Elves in the end. It's possible that their life-spans are actually only as long as the world's existence. Men are truly immortal however.

 

What are you basing this information off of?

 

I always thought Valinor was more or less heaven. I thought that since the ring bearer party was invited there that they enjoyed the same benefits of the elves and gandalf and the like.

 

I'm by far a Tolkien expert, so I won't be suprised to be wrong. I just wonder where Tolkien talks about it at. biggrin.gif

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I always thought Valinor was more or less heaven.

 

Nope. It's a long, long history but in the beginning Eru (God) created Eä (the universe) using the Ainur (it's a beautifully poetic creation account). Some of the Ainur decided to enter the universe to complete it's material development. These are the Valar and the lesser Maiar (including Morgoth). The Elves awoke in Middle Earth and were led to Undying Lands, Valinor, where the Valar had made their home, by none other than the Valar. Their race became split with some staying behind, some travelling and staying on the shores and others going all the way. After so and so a time eventually the Elves had their "Fall" comparable to Man's Fall from God's Grace in the Garden of Eden. Let to the Second War with Morgoth (and evil Vala, having fought the First War against the other Valar). The exiled Elves were pardoned and were invited back to Valinor. Some went, others (for reasons too deep to go into, stayed).

 

The Men (who awoke in Middle Earth at a later date) who fought with the Elves became great friends and were awarded by the Valar with a gift. An island in the Western Sea where the shores of Valinor were just in site sometimes. They were forbidden from sailing West however. It is in this kingdom that Aragorn and Gondor etc., have their heritage.

 

Anyway the Númenórean eventually "Fell" as well because of the mechanisms of Sauron (Morgoth's lieutenant). And Valinor was then sundered from the world (only Elvish boats can sail there).

 

I thought that since the ring bearer party was invited there that they enjoyed the same benefits of the elves and gandalf and the like.

 

Nope. Just.. burned up.

 

What are you basing this information off of?

 

I just wonder where Tolkien talks about it at. biggrin.gif

 

There is a lot of Tolkien's stuff out there besides The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. The Silmarillion, Histories of Middle Earth, his Letters etc. There is a pure wealth of Tolkien's legendarium out there. If you want more Wiki is actually a very good source for Tolkien. And of course his fan forums.

 

I'm by far a Tolkien expert, so I won't be suprised to be wrong.

 

Hey I'm far from an expert as well :biggrin:.

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There is a description in the "Akallabeth", the story of Numenor describing what would happen to mortals who went to Valinor, which includes burning their life away similar to a candle, if i recall - very long time since I read that.

 

But you can't consider the Ringbearers to be mere mortals. There are special cases, such as Earendil, Beren and Luthien etc, who are treated differently due to circumstance. You cannot assume the ringbearers died, especially when we are not told.

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But you can't consider the Ringbearers to be mere mortals. There are special cases, such as Earendil, Beren and Luthien etc, who are treated differently due to circumstance. You cannot assume the ringbearers died, especially when we are not told.

 

Eärendil was given the choice between the fate of Men or the fate of Elves and chose for his wife's sake to be counted amongst the Elven and besides he does not live in Valinor but was instead refused permission to return to Middle Earth and was instead set by the Valar to carry the Silmaril on his brow across the sky. Beren and Lúthien (who was an Elf) spent their mortal lives in Middle Earth, both passing away to take up the fate of Men. I am not saying that mortals who travel to the Blessed Realm instantly die. They just die sooner than they would have.

 

And we can assume that the Ringbearers die because they're not immortal. The Valar do not have the power to gift physical immortality to Men because Eru (God) has decreed that this is not their fate. However Men with Elven Blood are given a choice as to which race they are to be counted as (Hobbits aren't Elves!). The Blessed Realm is named the Undying Lands not because the land its self grants immortality but because those who are naturally called to dwell there by God are immortal. Men are destined to leave the Circle of the World as God decreed.

Edited by Jon Paul
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I always thought Valinor was more or less heaven.

 

Nope. It's a long, long history but in the beginning Eru (God) created Eä (the universe) using the Ainur (it's a beautifully poetic creation account). Some of the Ainur decided to enter the universe to complete it's material development. These are the Valar and the lesser Maiar (including Morgoth). The Elves awoke in Middle Earth and were led to Undying Lands, Valinor, where the Valar had made their home, by none other than the Valar. Their race became split with some staying behind, some travelling and staying on the shores and others going all the way. After so and so a time eventually the Elves had their "Fall" comparable to Man's Fall from God's Grace in the Garden of Eden. Let to the Second War with Morgoth (and evil Vala, having fought the First War against the other Valar). The exiled Elves were pardoned and were invited back to Valinor. Some went, others (for reasons too deep to go into, stayed).

 

The Men (who awoke in Middle Earth at a later date) who fought with the Elves became great friends and were awarded by the Valar with a gift. An island in the Western Sea where the shores of Valinor were just in site sometimes. They were forbidden from sailing West however. It is in this kingdom that Aragorn and Gondor etc., have their heritage.

 

Anyway the Númenórean eventually "Fell" as well because of the mechanisms of Sauron (Morgoth's lieutenant). And Valinor was then sundered from the world (only Elvish boats can sail there).

 

I thought that since the ring bearer party was invited there that they enjoyed the same benefits of the elves and gandalf and the like.

 

Nope. Just.. burned up.

 

What are you basing this information off of?

 

I just wonder where Tolkien talks about it at. biggrin.gif

 

There is a lot of Tolkien's stuff out there besides The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. The Silmarillion, Histories of Middle Earth, his Letters etc. There is a pure wealth of Tolkien's legendarium out there. If you want more Wiki is actually a very good source for Tolkien. And of course his fan forums.

 

I'm by far a Tolkien expert, so I won't be suprised to be wrong.

 

Hey I'm far from an expert as well :biggrin:.

 

Can you point me in the direction of where you got that bit about Glorfindel from? I was under the impression he was another guy with the same name. I've not heard that before and I'm quite curious :)

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Can you point me in the direction of where you got that bit about Glorfindel from? I was under the impression he was another guy with the same name. I've not heard that before and I'm quite curious :)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorfindel It gives sources.

 

Thank you :myrddraal: it seems I need to get myself more of Tolkien's works than the Silmarillion, the Hobbit, and the Lord of the Rings.

Edited by AvroChris
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  • 2 weeks later...

Beren and Lúthien (who was an Elf) spent their mortal lives in Middle Earth, both passing away to take up the fate of Men. I am not saying that mortals who travel to the Blessed Realm instantly die. They just die sooner than they would have.

 

And we can assume that the Ringbearers die because they're not immortal. The Valar do not have the power to gift physical immortality to Men because Eru (God) has decreed that this is not their fate. However Men with Elven Blood are given a choice as to which race they are to be counted as (Hobbits aren't Elves!). The Blessed Realm is named the Undying Lands not because the land its self grants immortality but because those who are naturally called to dwell there by God are immortal. Men are destined to leave the Circle of the World as God decreed.

Mandos, moved to pity by Luthiens song, raised both Beren (who had died after the hunt for Carcaroth) and Luthien (who died from grief) from the dead. Beren is not of elven blood. Yes- immortality is beyond the reach of mortals and yes they do die quicker in the Blessed Lands, but some things are in the power of the Valar to give.

 

What you infer- is that in no way could Mandos raise Beren from the dead, as death is the gift of Eru. Yet he does.

 

We just don't know what happened to the Ringbearers. If it stated that 'the peace of the Blessed Realm was granted to the Ringbearers and the withering of mortality held at bay for them alone so they could live to their appointed years in peace', I would not consider it out of context or unreasonable- which means, atleast to me, it is plausible.

 

I mean, its hardly different to granting the people of Numenor vast lifespans?

 

I always actually wondered what happened to Gimli. He went to Valinor with Legolas eventually, but dwarves are an oddity.

 

Anyway, this is all very immaterial, as they didn't die in the book - therefore LotR was marred by the following deaths

Theoden

Boromir

 

Saruman, Gollum, the Witch King, Denethor are antagonist characters and can't be used for comparison. In that regard, WoT has much more death because Sammael, Rahvin, Bel'al, Balthamal, Aginor have all died, along with many *named darkfriends and people like Verin. (I say named so we can't start talking about soldier deaths or the deaths of random orcs etc)

 

Boromir is already given a reciprocal in Ingtar - both dying for redemption (Verin too)

 

Theoden as a kindly king has no real reciprocal in WoT that I can see, maybe Darlin. Maybe he'll die

 

Eomer does not die in LotR, despite Peter Jackson :)

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Long story short, I think Moridin is going to kill someone at the Black Tower during all the fire and blood stuff. If Rand goes, Moridin will kill him, but if Rand takes Perrin with him, it'll be Perrin, which will fulfill his second time of needing to be near Rand. Dying in Rands place like that might well bind Perrin to the Horn, meaning he waits in T'A'R, so he still might not be out of the picture even if he does die.

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Long story short, I think Moridin is going to kill someone at the Black Tower during all the fire and blood stuff. If Rand goes, Moridin will kill him, but if Rand takes Perrin with him, it'll be Perrin, which will fulfill his second time of needing to be near Rand. Dying in Rands place like that might well bind Perrin to the Horn, meaning he waits in T'A'R, so he still might not be out of the picture even if he does die.

Why the heck would Rand take Perrin with him to the BT? Perrin would get creamed!

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For the LOTR comparison - Tolkien did kill off some important characters. Boromir or Theoden may not compare to Rand/Mat/Perrin, but RJ hasn't shown that he was willing to kill off characters of similar value despite having a MUCH longer series. In order to match Boromir or Theoden he'd have to have someone significant die, which would be a character like Thom or Lan perhaps.

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Long story short, I think Moridin is going to kill someone at the Black Tower during all the fire and blood stuff. If Rand goes, Moridin will kill him, but if Rand takes Perrin with him, it'll be Perrin, which will fulfill his second time of needing to be near Rand. Dying in Rands place like that might well bind Perrin to the Horn, meaning he waits in T'A'R, so he still might not be out of the picture even if he does die.

Why the heck would Rand take Perrin with him to the BT? Perrin would get creamed!

 

Yes he would. But if Rand somehow knew HE was going to get creamed unless Perrin was there to get creamed instead, would Rand make that decision? I reckon he would. Rand has to die at the right time I think, and it isnt supposed to happen at the Black Tower. Obviously there are several ways around death but I think even the Dragon Reborn wont take death lightly at a time like this. He hasnt seen Birgitte yet, and hasnt quite figured out whats going on with Moridin and the link.

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