Is Lan Overrated??

[WilsonC]

Consider another veteran soldier's reaction to the bond:

 

The Gathering Storm

Chapter 40 - The Tower Shakes

 

"I always wondered what that would feel like, Bryne said, raising his hand and making a fist a few times in the torchlight. He sounded amazed. Would that I could give this to each man in my army!"

Siuan sniffed. "I highly doubt that their wives and families would approve of that."

"They would if it kept the soldiers alive," Bryne said. "I could run a thousand leagues and never want for breath. I could stand against a hundred foes at once and laugh at them all."

 

This is a man who knows his body well, and who is extremely practical. There might be some exaggeration there, but it's evident that the immediate impact of the bond is profound. We see shortly after the increase awareness and reaction time when he takes down the bloodknife.

 

While it's fair to say that a man Lan's age is past his athletic prime, the degree that the bond seems to impact a person makes me think that a bonded man in his late 40's who's a tremendous natural athlete, healthy, and fanatical about his training would have more pure physical prowess than an unbonded man around his natural athletic peak.

 

Consider as well that we've seen the degree to which the bond helps a person's natural recovery; we've twice seen people who appeared to be dying stabilize due to the degree to which the bond helps a person's body. Not only would that help a warder directly, in his capacity to endure injury, but it would have long term benefits as well. A bonded man would be far more resilient to joint problems and injuries caused by repetitive use because he'd heal faster. With the combination of natural healing benefits, and Aes Sedai Healing to fix more immediate injuries that could otherwise have lingering effects, a lot of the aging effects that a competitive athlete endures wouldn't be a problem yet for Lan.

 

A secondary effect of improved vigor and recovery is that a warder could train harder and more often than a man without a bond. It's fair to say that in addition to the immediate impact of the bond, there should also be a more gradual improvement in a Warder's physical ability as his increased training capacity lets him develop his body further than other men. That would give him a greater peak, and in many cases a later peak assuming that he's bonded while in his natural prime.

 

Considering all that, it's fair to say that no ordinary man without the bond, even a younger one with great talent, could match Lan in terms of pure physical prowess.

 

We also know from the books that there's been a gradual decline in the number of new women trained in the White Tower. That means there's likely fewer men being bonded to young Sisters. The more experienced Sisters who want a Warder would typically have one already, and since Warders don't get 'replaced' when they start to grey, many would be past their physical peak as well. Those whose Warder dies are often reluctant to take another due to the effects of the broken bond. Outside of with Green Sisters, there would be few enough new, young Warders coming through the ranks. There would be some of the younger Warders who would be superior pure physical specimens to Lan, but how many would have the world-class natural talent that he does? There would really be few enough people in Randland who are a match for Lan physically that it's not at all unbelievable that none of those have his combination of instincts and training. If anything, it's possible that the gap between Lan and most Blademasters is underrated.

[paetric]

Great post.

[Kal11]

I had said it on another thread but there is zero evidence in the story to illustrate any kind of decline in Lan physically or in his abilities. If anything he has gotten better since Moir's "death" in TFOH. All of the arguments about aging and the like are completely baseless theory spinning with nothing to support it. Randy Couture's MMA career (or any other real world comparison) has as much to do with a fantasy character as the neighbor's dog barking 3 times at a full moon.

[Isgrimner]

Real world: George Foreman knocks out 26 year old Micheal Moorer at 45. Bernard Hopkins at 46 defeats Jean Pascal (28) to become the oldest title holder in boxing

 

In Benard Hopkins' case, it was him stayingin phenominal shape plus his skill. He actually looked the fresher of the two fighters towards the end.

 

We have seen evidence in the books of old Warders still able to exert themselves physically. Back in TGH, Jaem, Adelias' or Vendene's Warder was up to the task of sparring with Lan. He also helped him kill the Draghkar sent for Moiraine.

 

So, in my mind, Lan still has the vitality of a man much younger. I consider he got the bonus endurance from the bonding, and really hasn't lost much of a step yet. He has never been shown to have lost a step.

 

Most importantly, RJ said he is still the best. It's his world, he makes the rules. Maybe he has a rule as to why Lan is better that he never revealed. Though I think he did explain it, in that Lan while Lan is old, he still has a youthful vitality.

 

As to Gawyn, I don't think Mat would need his "luck" or ta'veren-ness to take that loser out again. If he can take Gawyn out with Galad, thrown in for good measure while barely able to stand, then he can take that loser anytime, despite Gawyn now having the bond.

[tlburchhardt]

As an avid western martial artist I can tell you that age isn't the deciding factor in a sword fight. I fight with guys almost twice my age and they still have the speed and precision to do some amazing things.(they do complain about their knees a lot, though) Also, when I am in my 50's I expect to be able to kick some young upstarts butt. So, I don't think Lan is overrated. I'm pretty sure that he is straight up bad ass!

Katana vs. Broadsword

 

Katanas are slashing weapons and anyone would be hard pressed to cut through maille

Broadswords are thrusting and slashing weapons so if you can't find an opening to cut, run them through

 

Both types of sword have their qualities.(I'm a broadsword man myself)

[bsmnt23]

I realize this is anecdotal evidence at best, but I am in the SCA and training with the broadsword ATM, and I can tell for fact that age doesn’t hinder the guy training me. He's pushing 60 and has 2 artificial hips and I don’t even SEE it when he gets past my guard, alls I know is a good solid whack on my squishy human parts, even through the leather armor I wear. And he's shorter than I am. My relative skill (or rather, lack of it) notwithstanding, the guy owns me, and I am a big guy in pretty decent shape having spent the past 7 years in the army.

 

Something my dad always told me: "Old age and treachery will defeat youth and skill every time". Well, Lan has skill to go with his age and all the dirty tricks a lifetime of combat will give you. Hardly overrated.

[Levek]

I'll start off by saying I am no expert fighter, nor swordmen. So I won't approach this with facts and technique statics. Instead lets just use common sense gained from day to day life. When I was 18 fresh out of high school I went to work for a landscaping company while going to college. Keep in mind I lettered in 3 sports and grew up on a farm, so physical labor was an everyday event. Needless to say I was in rather good shape. During this time I worked with a man who was 68 years old. This guy could keep right up with any of the young guys on our crew. Even at times out work us. For those of you who have never done this type of work at times it can be very labor intensive. I worked there for 2 years and this guy never missed a beat or day during those years.

 

The guy worked there not because he had to, but because he had worked all his life and thats what he did. I told this story for a very simple reason. The OP has valid points across the board. Most of the time youth will win out in situations of physical might. Normally with youth comes superior speed, power, and endurance. The important thing to remember is there are exceptions to the norm. Like the 68 year old man I worked with Lan is an expection to the rule. We have all seen this at one time or another throughout our life. Like the person who smokes 3 packs a day and lives to be 100. While thousands upon thousands die in their 40s and 50s from smoking. There is no logical answer to how or why it just is. Nothing is as clear cut as black and white there are always some exceptions to the rules.

 

For me it is not that far fetched to believe Lan is without a doubt the greatest swordsmen alive within the series. The path he has walked is much different than all the other metioned throughout this post. Sword placed in his hand while still in his cradle. Lan has been married to the blade all his life, it is not who he wants to be it is just simply who he is. He has been a arrow aimed at the shadow from birth. He took a slight detour by join Moriane, but still even then he didn't get softer he got stronger (bond/countless battles/etc etc). Lan has had one thing consuming him since he was old enough to understand. This to me does not sound like a person who has been worn down by 50 years but one who has been instaed training for 50 years. All of the other players within the series have had many different things pull them in different directions other than swordsmenship and hone their skill.

 

So to reveiw age really is not a deciding factor becuase there is always the exception to the norm. Also with Lan story I think it makes perect sense for him to be considered the best. I find nothing off about saying that. In my opinion the only person who stands a chnace against Lan in a 1v1 fight is Mat. Due to his weapon advantage and insane luck. Mat rolled out of his death bed and downed Gawyn and Galad. They have both gotten better but they were not written to be pushovers at the time of this conflict either. But as far as a 1v1 sword Vs. sword I would say Lan is unmatched.

[Arc]

Did not read the entire thread (so it might have already been brought up) but I've gotten the impression 'old Age' has been used as an argument pretty often. So I went on a littel searching trip and found this:

 

Lan Mandragoran - b. 953 NE, 47 (Lord of Chaos, Glossary)

 

Now a lot of you have made claims of him nearly being 60 or at least a good way into his 50's, well turns out he's only 47! Frankly to me this puts the whole age - dexterity ratio in a new light.

[Jon Paul]

When they sparred, Sleete could beat him 2 out of 5 bouts. That was when Lan was younger and likely not at the top of his game.

 

I believe Sleete won 2 out of 9 times. And this was before Land reached his prime.

[paetric]

Did not read the entire thread (so it might have already been brought up) but I've gotten the impression 'old Age' has been used as an argument pretty often. So I went on a littel searching trip and found this:

 

Lan Mandragoran - b. 953 NE, 47 (Lord of Chaos, Glossary)

 

Now a lot of you have made claims of him nearly being 60 or at least a good way into his 50's, well turns out he's only 47! Frankly to me this puts the whole age - dexterity ratio in a new light.

 

Good point and good post. I thought him to be older, like into his 50's. But I suppose the age fits. Lan was 25 when Rand was born so if you figure thier age when they left the two rivers and the course of the story then 47 makes sense.

[Erunion]

On the Sleete thing, I just read it last night (re-reading TGS/TOM), Sleete beat Lan 2 out of 7 times 'back when he was still sparring', probably some 10-15 years ago.

 

Age is only a hindrance when it is allowed to be, or in extreme cases. Most of us don't work out nearly as much as we should, or as well as we should, in order to maintain our physical prowess. Because of this, we become less effective with age, when working out is more important.

The average person will work out roughly the same amount from their twenties to their forties, then start to work out less as they grow older. This is the exact opposite of what we should do for our bodies, as the older we get the more our body tends to decay, so the more work we have to do to maintain/improve.

 

Lan, on the other hand, has been training constantly, never missing a beat since he was five or so. Since Moiraines death, he has increased his training load in order to compensate for the grief, putting a razor edge on his already well-honed fitness. Add this to to the advantage of the Warder bond (which, with it's endurance increasing nature, allows every one of your workouts to be more effective, therefore increasing your fitness faster) and I really see no disadvantage with Lan's age. He likely won't really slow until he hits his late fifties/early sixties, but with Nynaeve fixing specific problems (Knees, back, joints/etc) , he'll still be in decent shape for a long, long time.

[Talmanes]

Okay so I just read this whole thread despite all the other stuff I still have to do, and here is what I think.

 

For one, it looks to me that many people replying haven't actually read even a few posts behind them. What I mean here is multiple people have given real life examples of how experience trumps youth, and then a few posts you get the much repeated 'no Lan is too old to be that good' argument.

 

I was glad when people finally stopped using UFC references as evidence of age vs. youth as that is not even a little close to the sword combat of Lan that is actually the origin of the discussion of this thread.

 

Now most of my points have been brought up to some extent, but one big thing especially was missed.

 

First off though, keep in mind that Lan is of the most badass race of people in Randland. Not only is he a borderlander, but he is Malkieri. He has been training his whole life, has the bond, and more wisdom and experience than many other warriors put together.

 

"Who was the greatest blademaster of all time?"

From the throats of dozens of students came a massed bellow. "Jearom Gaidin!"

"Yes!" Hammar shouted, turning to make sure all heard. "During his lifetime, Jearom fought over ten thousand times, in battle and single combat. He was defeated once. By a farmer with a quarterstaff! Remember that. Remember what you just saw."

 

This quote comes from The Dragon Reborn, right after Mat whoops Gawyn and Galad, two men at blademaster level, if not officially, technically.

 

The quote shows two good points:

1. How old must he have been at death to have foughten 10,000+ times? He definitely wasn't young.

2. Battle is random, and nothing like televised sporting events or competitions even. Someone who is all power or talent will often lose to one who is more experienced, because with experience comes the knowledge of battle, and prepares a person much better for the unexpected things that can happen in battle. Say Gawyn or Rand for example, both in their prime, and very talented, and both with a bond, fights Lan. Would he get a run for his money? Probably. Would the student beat the teacher? Doubtful. Lan is not THAT old. Especially when you take into account the fact that he has had Aes Sedai around to heal almost all injuries, probably since he was a child, is a bonded Warder, and was already one of the best before being bonded.

 

Another important tidbit is that Lan is not arrogant. He fights if he has to, and never underestimates and enemy. These are things that come from experience, and is illustrated by the many who have posted stories about being young and cocky and getting the crap kicked out of them by someone older and more experienced who knew exactly how powerful they were, and how skilled.

 

Also fun fact, although I don't have the quote, when Rand was sparring in Caemelyn, who was the only one to actually beat him?

 

That's right an old guy.

[Snail]

I think that a combination of Warder Bond and especially experience would make up for any supposed loss in speed or strength due to age. There is a finite number of combinations possible in any fight for possible movements, attacks, and responses. At a certain point, foresight is better than speed.

[Entreri]

RJ said Warders don't live longer, but hold on to vitality longer than ordinary men. As for Lan, he became a Blademaster as a teenager (this according to Team Jordan), so Ryne must have been exceptionally good in NS. Both RJ and Brandon have said Lan is the #1 swordsman; maybe that will change in a few years, but right now he's the best.

 

The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time claims that even regular people lived very long lives during the Age of Legends:

 

Because of the use of the Power in health care, most people did not have to fear dying from disease or injury. The average life expectancy was between one hundred and fifty and two hundred years. For Aes Sedai it was considerably longer, since use of the One Power somehow enhanced the youth and durability of the channeler’s body, greatly extending his or her life. There are records of some Aes Sedai being considered barely middle-aged at three hundred years, and some channelers may have lived seven hundred years or more.

Which is interesting since the human body should not be able to hold up for 200 years. The AoL Aes Sedai must have known of some way to slow down or reverse the effects of aging.

 

 

Ryne was at least the level of Valda now and possibly the #1 blademaster in the world when Lan beat him.

[Entreri]

I think that a combination of Warder Bond and especially experience would make up for any supposed loss in speed or strength due to age. There is a finite number of combinations possible in any fight for possible movements, attacks, and responses. At a certain point, foresight is better than speed.

 

 

In the real world, there are several exceptional fighters that in their 40's are still on top. Generally though, fighters peak at 30-35.

 

There is the Warder bond.

 

I think if anything Lan has gotten better after the death of Moraine, and quite possibly became the greatest blademaster ever.

 

"faster, faster, faster"...book 7 when Lan was training, they are all shocked and amazed at his speed.

[Ingtar Shinowa]

Lan is death walking. Next question.

[Jon Paul]

Lan is death walking. Next question.

 

No he is not.

 

Death hides from Lan when he strolls by. He is just that damn good. In fact he's so good he simply dispenses with the laws of reality and moves by sheer will alone (when he stopped Mat from killing Mo' he simply ignored the intervening space).

[ed2funy]

I've reported this thread to Jason for blasphemy.

*shakes head*

[Justanotherfacet]

To be honest i think after 5 or so pages of this topic i've changed my mind. I think Lan might still be the best of the best after all, mainly because i didn't put as much emphasis or importance on the warder bond as the rest of you. i DO however still expect that Lan's body will have deteriorated - as is inevitable - after all the bond boosts energy, stamina and alertness, it doesn't revitalize joints. But hey loads of guys still are incredibly healthy at 50.

 

Perhaps the bond is keeping him at his relative peak of 30 y/o - but a 30y/o with an extra 17 years of practice =D

 

Still. I suspect that our new age swordsmen - Gawyn, Galad, Rand etc are likewise incredibly talented. Give them 20-30 more years and Lan might have a real challenge on his hands =D

 

BTW do you guys think that Galads/Gawyns/Rands victories over their blademasters was because they were simply better swordsman or because they were younger and healthier? After all Galad and Rand fought unbonded men

 

BTW glad to be back, don't ban me again Luckers, i promise not to use this forum to combat drunk girls LMR ever again bahahhaha

[RyanL24]

The 5 pages have changed my mind as well. I was thinking too much in terms of RL, and the phrase "That's why they play the game." In case you're not a sports fan, they say that when the crappy team beats the best team. The best team should have won, but they didn't, and "That's why they play the game." To see who is going to win. People ponder and speculate all week about what the results will be... but then they play the game, and see what really happens. But that's RL.

 

 

It turns out that this was the wrong way of thinking. Lan is the best because RJ said he's the best. If he fought every person in RandLand, he would end up undefeated in the end. RJ said he's the best, and that's that. There's no reason to "play the game." It's not realistic, but it's fiction, and the story is being given to us by RJ/BS. So there's really no reason to speculate on any of this stuff.

 

 

The only thing left to discuss appears to be the ending.

[Entreri]

Notetable blademaster victories in the series:

 

Lan: Defeated blademaster Ryne, who is at least as good as Valda.

 

Lan defeated 6 assassins at once, these assassins ambushed him. Assassins are far more deadlier than mere soliders.

 

Comparison: "Arthur Hawkings's greatest general and husband to Ishara...even he died when confronted by only four swordsman. Assassins." (LoC).

 

No blademaster in the series has yet defeated 6 at once.

 

Lan: Defeated blademaster Riatin. Riatin did farely well against #2 blademaster Rand. Lan easily defeated Riatin.

[Mats Spare Hat]

What're you kidding me? He's so overrated...I mean, his waffles are terrible! Dude couldn't cook toast.

[sleepinghour]

She spun the weaves to Delve him; new scars made her wince inside, and there was something odd, but he seemed healthy as a prime bull.

It doesn't sound like Lan is in any way weakened by age yet. (Also, I'm willing to bet "something odd" was the Warder depression, and thus is probably treatable, but Nynaeve hadn't developed her brain surgery skills at that time.)

[Entreri]

She spun the weaves to Delve him; new scars made her wince inside, and there was something odd, but he seemed healthy as a prime bull.

It doesn't sound like Lan is in any way weakened by age yet. (Also, I'm willing to bet "something odd" was the Warder depression, and thus is probably treatable, but Nynaeve hadn't developed her brain surgery skills at that time.)

 

Old age is definitely not slowing Lan down.

 

Generally, a fighter reaches their prime around 30-35 years. But since Moraine "died" Lan has only become better. The Warder bond, plus Lan's intense workouts and no doubt healthy eating = still in his prime.

 

In the real world there are examples of this. With the Warder bond, forget about it.

[RyanL24]

Could you please tell me more about Lan's healthy eating habits? A quote from a book would be really great!

 

 

I'm just kidding. But at the same time, I have yet to notice a healthy eater in Randland. I'll admit I didn't pay too much attention, but all I recall is a bunch of meat pies and giant hams for breakfast... And quite a few of Mat's feasts come to mind. "Give me 8 whole frickin chickens. Want anything Thom?"