Freedom or Security

[USURP888]

You keep on going back to you damane argument which I have repeatedly said I don't approve of again and again and again and again.

 

HAHA side step side step. You're getting good at that dance. You said slaves are slaves period. This is patently false. It doesn't matter what you approve or don't approve of. There is a difference between damane and commoners. You argued over and over that there is none. Prove it.

 

Sometime I wonder if I am talking to a 10 year old. What part of I DONT APPROVE OF DAMANE and THAT IS PART OF SEANCHAN CULTURE I DON'T APPROVE of do you not understand.??? Where have I compared damane to commoners? I am comparing people ruled by Seanchan by people ruled by Randland do you not get that part?

 

I'll leave you to your delusions.

[Manscher]

No, Ellorien says that Elayne already have all votes that is lawfully required for her to take the Throne, so it's really doesn't matter if she votes or not. As with all elections, you always try to get the highest consensus, even if you've already won the election.

[solarz]

The votes are what mattered? Is that why they had this whole big "siege of Caemlyn" thing? Why didn't they just count their votes instead of killing each other?

 

Sigh...because no house had a consensus. What about that is hard to understand?

 

A nation where you can resort to force of arms when a vote doesn't go your way is not democratic in any way, shape, or form.

 

Consensus means 100% agreement. When's the last time this happened in a democratic nation?

 

Double sigh.

 

Although I guess this one was partially my fault. I meant to type majority. Please review the portions of the story you wish to argue before you make so many claims that are wrong. Elayne only needed the majority

 

KoD

 

"The more who stand for her, the better for Andor." Dyelin sounded a touch dazed herself. "Stand with me for Trakand."

"She had the throne," Ellorien said, as cold as ever. "The rest is fluff and feathers."

 

So no 100% agreement is not needed. Andor is an elected monarchy...as others have pointed out this is one of the steps to democracy.

 

 

Okay, please tell me again, if "the rest is fluff and feathers", why was there a siege of Caemlyn?

 

And you think that my claim of: "A nation where you can resort to force of arms when a vote doesn't go your way is not democratic in any way, shape, or form" is wrong?

[Suttree]

Where have I compared damane to commoners?

 

Uhhmm lets see...

 

Why heap hate on the Seanchan for enslaving damane when Kings and Queens of Randland demand the same of their people?

 

So I argue that damanes are not the only slaves, if we are to count freedom or lack thereof, then all people under monarchies are slaves since there is no democracy in Randland.

 

whether by a'dam or by Royal decree, if a peasant is wanted by a Monarch for sport, they will be made sport. If a peasant is wanted dead by a King, he dies. Either you accept that the rest of the WOT world are as bad as the Seanchan or you agree that Monarchs have the "divine" right to rule. there is not nitpicking, there is no buts.

 

 

Monarchs hold the power of life and death on the head of any of the people in their realm or do you deny that? You say there are levels of dominion, I say I do not agree,

 

YES I SEE all people who are under the rule of Monarchs the same. They are all ants at the mercy of their rulers or is that not clear enough of an answer yet.

 

A slave is a slave, ruled people are ruled.

 

You can attempt to deny it, but it's in your posts for all to see.

 

Okay, please tell me again, if "the rest is fluff and feathers", why was there a siege of Caemlyn?

 

And you think that my claim of: "A nation where you can resort to force of arms when a vote doesn't go your way is not democratic in any way, shape, or form" is wrong?

 

The siege of Caemlyn happened before that statement when they couldn't come to a majority vote. There were multiple claimants and others besides Elayne started the aggression. Somewhat understandable actually considering a forsaken had been pulling the strings.

 

No one claimed it was a democracy. It is however an elective monarchy like we've said all along.

[David Selig]

OK, let's get back to the basics.

 

Nobody is saying Andor is a democracy of a modern type or anything close to that. But it's far less of an absolute monarchy than the Seanchan Empire thus far less open to abuse of power from the Queen. I really don't see how this is debatable. The Seanchan Empress even has a special ter'angreal which inspires awe - the Crystal Throne (as stated in the Guide). The whole population is under intense propaganda to believe that the Empress is a semi-goddess. The Seanchan have a very large standing army, which is centrally controlled - unlike Andor, where traditionally the number of the Queen's Guard are many times lower than the combined numbers which the High Seats can levy. IIRC, The Empress has the most and the strongest damane too, which makes any open rebellion pretty much doomed from the start.

 

Seanchan gets to proclaim their Daughter of the Nine Moons once the Empress dies. Now, how did nobles in Seanchan get their titles? It has been explained that even the Imperial blood is not immune to the darwinian rule of the blood, the higher the blood the more dangerous the dance. Tuon's brother and sister has been cast down to da'covale and we see Egeanin, Tylee and Yulan promoted to the Low Blood by virtue of their achievements so I say Seanchan monarchies go by the system of meritocracy. The blood who are stupid are cast down, the commoner who is great are promoted.

 

Meritocracy is really stretching it. Sure among the heirs of the Empress there's a contest, but it's more of a who's more ruthless and a better schemer, than who's a more capable ruler. The Guide states this:

Since Luthair's conquest, Seanchan has evolved into a nation that is stratified and has very little movement between the ranks. That is not to say that there are no power struggles, only that almost all of them are between members of the same class. The society is based on the concept that everyone has a place in which to serve, and everyone should be in their place.

 

Elevations of exceptional soldiers into nobles happened in nearly all feudal type societies, especially during a major conquest like the Corenne, and is hardly unheard of in the Westlands too - Elayne made Birgitte a Lady and granted her an estate (and nobody in court considered that really unusual) and offered a title to Mat too. And as Bashere told Perrin at one point, there are plenty of nobles who failed in some way and their descendants were commoners.

 

This does not mean the Seanchan system doesn't have its positive side - even their limited social mobility seems bigger than in most other Randland countries. But it's hardly meritocracy - one family has controlled the Empire for 1000 years, the descendants of the nobles who came with Luthair still make up most of the High Blood and held most top positions.

[Suttree]

Really? They don't? Just a couple examples...

 

1. That awesome sport for Seanchan royalty. Let's play put the A'dam bracelet on a man and see if he dies screaming!

 

2. Say you are the Imperial Functionary when Perrin shows up with the note from Suroth looking for fork root. Just a regular decision in the course of you work day and yet "That woman knew she stood in the shadow of death as soon as she read Suroth’s words".

 

I could go on and on so give me a break...the damane system will change as Randland moves into the future, I would be willing to bet on it.

 

So you gave two examples of nobility abusing commoners. So what? That happens in every feudal society, including Andor. Andor just happens to have less cases of it than, say, Cairhien or Tear. That's because both Morgase and Elayne are very benevolent rulers. We haven't seen what Andor was like when it was ruled by other rulers, apart from Gaebril.

 

But that wasn't the point you tried to make was it?

 

The Seanchan *do* have a problem with channelers being able to do what they want, take what they want, and kill anyone they want. And before you say Seanchan nobility does the same: no they DON'T.

 

Ok so that is totally false. If the bolded part doesn't describe the high blood I don't know what does. More examples?

A commoner looks at the empress. They are dead. Kill anyone they want?

 

The empress uses the power to invoke awe in her followers with the crystal throne. Puts the A'dam on men for sport. Encourages her children to scheme against and assassinate each other. Kills functionaries for making the wrong decisions. Do what they want?

 

The seekers can kidnap and torture anyone at anytime with no trial or reason. Even for something as small as not cooperating fully(guess who defines the level of cooperation?) or speaking out against the Blood. Catch the eye of a noble, you might just be made into a cup bearer! People are allowed to be bought and sold along with animals and household goods. Young women are snatched from their families, put on leashes, written out of all family records and turned into pets. Their entire identity is erased. Take what they want?

 

It doesn't matter in this context that other nobles abuse their power, what you clearly said was Seanchan nobility did not.

 

If all the claims Solarz and Usurp are making about how everyone on the Seanchan continent is so happy are true, then why did the The Consolidation take nearly 800 years? Why does General Miraj say he has had to stop not one or ten but numerous rebellions in his time with the DW Guards. Why are the hill tribes still autonomous? The society is based on the concept that everyone has a place in which to serve, and everyone should be in their place. Their is intense propaganda and intimidation enforcing this. The Seanchan people don't have any Shadowspawn to deal with. The shadow barely touched their lands until recently. Yet with running the nation being the only thing the government needs to worry about we still have talk of "numerous" rebellions. Sounds like not everyone is as happy as our two posters would like to make out.

 

Btw +1 for David for bringing a measured voice to the debate.

[USURP888]

How very lawyerly or shall I say fox news-y of you suttree to edit out of context what I posted in order to bolster your argument.

 

Why heap hate on the Seanchan for enslaving damane when Kings and Queens of Randland demand the same of their people? Monarchies are nothing but dictatorship given a better title. Is it not written that nobles treat peasants little less than human that when Rand made proclamations to the effect that nobles cannot rape a peasant without consequence the Tairen Lords thought it was a joke at first?

 

Monarchs hold the power of life and death on the head of any of the people in their realm or do you deny that? You say there are levels of dominion, I say I do not agree, either you accept monarchies have a right over life and death over its people or you do not. If a monarch choose to be kind, it is STILL up to that monarch and the people has no say in the matter, if a generation or two from now Andor has a ruler who is a despot, the Andoran people would still have no say in the matter.

 

That Morgase and Elayne are good rulers are not to be disputed but the fact that they are monarchs and they rule by virtue of blood is my point. That is the same as the Seanchan, their empress rule by virtue of blood not because they were elected by the masses. And both these rulers have total power over their subjects or do you dispute that fact?

 

And suttree you never did answer my question did you? would you deny that kings and queens have the power of life and death over their subject?and YES I SEE all people who are under the rule of Monarchs the same. They are all ants at the mercy of their rulers or is that not clear enough of an answer yet.

 

 

The quotes you so conveniently bolded clearly was arguing about the merits OF having a monarchy and not strictly about damane which I have said over and over again I do not agree with as the post below clearly states.

 

Their culture is alien to yours so you have a problem with it. Damane as I have repeatedly said over and over again is one aspect of their culture I don't agree with and would be pleased to see vanish. I argue that despite this negative aspect of their culture, the people in the story as it is written by RJ and BS actually prefer the Seanchan over the Randland monarchies. The Tinkers prefer their justice, the invaded actually thank them for it. Tylin and even Beslan of all people saw the rule of the Seanchan as good for their people. Rand during his darkest moment recognized this and stayed his hand because of it.

[Suttree]

How very lawyerly or shall I say fox news-y of you suttree to edit out of context what I posted in order to bolster your argument.

 

 

The quotes you so conveniently bolded clearly was arguing about the merits OF having a monarchy and not strictly about damane which I have said over and over again I do not agree with as the post below clearly states.

 

The first two quotes at the very least clearly equate Damane with anyone living under a monarchy. It's clear for anyone to read. You asked me to show were you compare damane with commoners. Well...

 

So I argue that damanes are not the only slaves, if we are to count freedom or lack thereof, then all people under monarchies are slaves since there is no democracy in Randland.

[SuperFade]

Now the subtitle mentions compulsion and bonding, which I personally find far more interesting than the current argument. We know that the Warder Bond includes a measure of compulsion that can be used at will. What do the posters here feel about that? Personally I find it quite hypocritical that Aes Sedai clamp down hard on normal compulsion but apparently don't mind the fact that they can bend their own Warders to their wills easily enough.

 

As a side note I find it very amusing that many people place democracy on a veritable pedestal when less than a century ago it was the least common form of government in the world and many of those set up after WW1 subsequently collapsed due to lack of support. "Democracy is the brutal rule by the majority," indeed.

[Apple13]

Now the subtitle mentions compulsion and bonding, which I personally find far more interesting than the current argument. We know that the Warder Bond includes a measure of compulsion that can be used at will. What do the posters here feel about that? Personally I find it quite hypocritical that Aes Sedai clamp down hard on normal compulsion but apparently don't mind the fact that they can bend their own Warders to their wills easily enough.

 

As a side note I find it very amusing that many people place democracy on a veritable pedestal when less than a century ago it was the least common form of government in the world and many of those set up after WW1 subsequently collapsed due to lack of support. "Democracy is the brutal rule by the majority," indeed.

 

I guess it's mainly that Warders in general agree to being bonded. The only ones we know who was bonded against his will was Rand to Alanna, and Lan to Myrelle(or was it Moiraine that wanted that?). I do find it weird that a lot of the characters are willing to be bonded to someone else, because I don't think I'd really like to have someone else inside my head. But the bottom line is that they agree to it. And besides, while Aes Sedai can used the bond to compel their warders, it's said that they don't use it very often.

 

And democracy might not solve all the problems, but I think it's better than monarchy or anything like that, where the only qualification for a person to rule a country is that they be born at the right time to the right family. Better to vote for someone who you think might do the job well. At least then, people can carry a bit of the responsibility if the leader they elect is the wrong one.

[USURP888]

How very lawyerly or shall I say fox news-y of you suttree to edit out of context what I posted in order to bolster your argument.

 

 

The quotes you so conveniently bolded clearly was arguing about the merits OF having a monarchy and not strictly about damane which I have said over and over again I do not agree with as the post below clearly states.

 

The first two quotes at the very least clearly equate Damane with anyone living under a monarchy. It's clear for anyone to read. You asked me to show were you compare damane with commoners. Well...

 

So I argue that damanes are not the only slaves, if we are to count freedom or lack thereof, then all people under monarchies are slaves since there is no democracy in Randland.

 

 

Touche, I did indeed said that. I will admit to it. I will clarify then my answer to be clear for the record.

 

I do not support the damane culture of the Seanchan, In that sentence you quoted I was trying to say that damane lacks freedom in Seanchan and I was arguing the fact that under monarchies all people lack freedom, to varying degrees yes, but they lack freedom nonetheless. That's why I was arguing that if we are to hate on the Seanchan for their practice we must not forget the fact that people in Randland lacks freedom as well.

[sleepinghour]

Now the subtitle mentions compulsion and bonding, which I personally find far more interesting than the current argument. We know that the Warder Bond includes a measure of compulsion that can be used at will. What do the posters here feel about that? Personally I find it quite hypocritical that Aes Sedai clamp down hard on normal compulsion but apparently don't mind the fact that they can bend their own Warders to their wills easily enough.

The weave placed on Accepted before the Aes Sedai test is also a variant of Compulsion:

 

Q: Is the weave used in the shawl testing a form of Compulsion?

Brandon: They’re definitely cousins. Whether they would consider it a form of Compulsion…to them, Compulsion is complete evil, so they will not view it at all like that...

That was my question since my theory was that Nynaeve was able to break the rules inside the ter'angreal not because of her practice in T'A'R, but because she shook off the weave placed upon her as she once did with Moghedien's Compulsion. But I haven't gotten the chance to ask Brandon about that.

 

I agree that it's quite hypocritical, and we don't know how many Warders were even aware of the Compulsion aspect when they agreed to be bonded. It wasn't mentioned prior to any of the bondings we've seen in the books, or by any of the Aes Sedai that wanted to bond Mat in LoC. None of them mentioned the Warder death rage/depression either.

[Mr Ares]

Why bother? After all, if ruled people are ruled, if everyone under the power of a monarch is the same, then any two monarchies (such as Andor and Seanchan) will suffice. If you include more than two and there are differences between two or more, then your point is surely disproven? Ruled by a constituional monarchy, ruled by an absolute monarchy, ruled by a feudal monarchy, ruled by an elected President, doesn't matter. Ruled people are ruled.

I agree, hence my assertion that there is no difference at all, ruled people are ruled. That Andor now has a good queen in Elayne and had so in Morgase does not dispute the fact that they are still monarchs who has the power of life and death over their people the same as the Seanchan. I myself would rather be truly FREE, but I do not put my opinion into the story itself and claim that one ruler is better than the other. For this story that we all love, The Wheel of Time is a fantasy where monarchs rule absolutely. There are differences in culture and ways on how they rule but they all rule just the same.

 

With regards to laws, Andor has laws and the Seanchan has laws. The Seanchan laws gave Tuon the power to do what she did to Suroth. Andoron law and Seanchan law by the way are not made by any legislature elected by the people, they are proclamations made by the ruler. I am simple saying that we should not hate on the Seanchan because they are just the same as all the other monarchs in Randland. Better than most if we are to believe the tinkers, Rand and even the population themselves.

Why does it matter if laws are made by elected legislatures or proclamations from monarchs? Ruled people are ruled, whether or not they vote for their rulers, you've already admitted as much. Elected leaders can still hold the power of life and death over their citizens - some countries have, and others still had, the death penalty. So if ruled people are ruled, no difference between types of ruler, then who is not ruled? Those who rule, and those who are alone, clearly. So if you want to be free, there's only one thing for it, you'll have to strand yourself on a desert island.

 

 

Not all monarchies are the same. The Seanchan practice slavery, the Westlands don't. They practice torture, the Westlands do. They have a police state, Westlands not so much. Precisely how liberal the laws in a given state are vary from state to state, as you'd expect. The Tairen nobles abused their power to a greater extent than many other countries. They might all be dictatorships, but some dictatorships are worse than others. Do kings and queens have the power of life and death over their subjects? Yes. Of course, some democratic countries have the death penalty, so it is entirely possible for elected officials to have that same power (or possibly unelected judges in a democratic country). Having the power of life and death might be important, but so is how it's used. Just killing lawbreakers is one thing, killing people who annoy you is another, for example.

Back when Mat first met Olver, a lordling was about to cut up the kid just for touching his horse and his own retainer thought it the lord's right. I submit that prior to Rand's coming this is the norm of the land.

Which land?

 

The Seanchan Empress do have absolute power, but yet I submit that despite this we never see any of her subjects being mistreated, in fact the book has made it a point to emphasize time and time again that except for damane, the Seanchan rule justly and fairly.

Not exactly. The Seanchan government has a well developed beauracracy, more so than any of the Westlands nations. This allows them to administer their empire - including the newly added provinces - very efficiently. Given that Tarabon was in civil war and Altara was a country only according to the maps, the Seanchan were able to provide immediate benefits. Such as food, luxuries like that. They also maintain a strict rule of law - but the law can include you being executed for not bowing enough. You can be tortured to death simply because a Seeker has some vague suspicion (or maybe just felt like it). The Tinkers like it because the Seanchan are willing to extend their protection to the Tinkers rather than treating them as outcasts. To the average person, who is ruling frequently doesn't matter that much, at least when things are going well. Fortuona could order a man killed on a whim, she could order one to try on an a'dam just to see what happens. She might not, but such behaviour is perfectly legitimate in an empress. But really, there's precious little chance of that happening to you and yours, is there? So let the empress have her fun. As long as the people have their bread and circuses, they'll get by and won't be too bothered about living in a police state.

 

 

Elayne and Morgase are good rulers, I have said that as well. What if Andor then has a bad queen after Elayne? what would stop that next monarch from acting with absolute authority? A monarch is a monarch, some rule for good, some rule for evil. Their methods may differ but they rule absolutely just the same.

Only absolute monarchs rule absolutely. Given that Andor's military strength was concentrated in the hands of the nobility, with only a small standing army in the Queen's Guard, the answer to your question can be found in the following quote: political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. If the nobles have the swords, so they have the power. If the queen has the nobles, she has the swords, so she has the power. If the queen doesn't have the nobles, then she doesn't have the power. If the nobles don't have the swords, they don't have the power either. Of course, Elayne has the ability to become Andor's first absolute ruler, given that she has created a standing army. All she needs to do is defang the nobility. But as I said, she would be the first - previous Andoran monarchs were not absolute rulers.

 

Furthermore, where is your "free speech" when Elayne threatened to cut off Perrin's head for raising the Red Eagle Banner?

That would be treason. You might be free to speak, not to commit treason.

 

Other nobility houses throw their support behind a claimant. That is politicking, not democracy! If there are more than one candidate, they don't count the number of votes each candidate receives.

Actually, they do - most successions are not wars. Even when wars are fought one must still gain the support of a majority of Great Houses. That makes it the very definition of an elected monarchy. It might not be a representative democracy, but no-one is claiming that it is - only that the queen is elected.

 

Likewise, the Seanchan have misidentified the problem. A marath'damane can set herself up as a queen. So can a normal person. A marath'damane might also decide that she's quite happy in her normal life, farming or what have you. So why the need to lock her up, destroy her identity, and then use her power for your own benefit? There really isn't one. If a man is a killer, lock him up. Don't lock him up on the grounds that he might one day decide to be. If someone can shoot you with their eye lasers, don't gouge out their eyes just because they might. And if someone can channel, don't enslave them and use them as weapons just because there exists the possibility of them using themselves as weapons against you.

Geeze, think about this for a moment: how do you find a killer who shoots invisible lasers out of their eyes? Likewise, how do you enforce laws on channelers who can kill you by magically stopping your heart, or control your mind?

 

Your argument is like most arguments against the Seanchan: idealistic in the extreme, completely useless in practice.

Funny that you stress the invisible part - I'm not aware of another sort of laser beam. As for how you find the person responsible, police work. A sniper's bullet isn't visible to the naked eye, it moves too fast. The police are still capable of finding snipers - it might not be easy, they might not alwats succeed, but it is possible. How do you enforce laws on someone who could stop your heart? Same way as I would anyone else. If they don't break the law, there's no need to do anything. If they do, try them for their crime and sentence them appropriately if they're found guilty. Simple. If a channeler is guilty of abusing their ability to channel, sever them. If they are not guilty, why are you punishing them? I don't think the rule of law is all that idealistic - it certainly can work in practice. Let me put this to you: I am capable, at least in theory, of all manner of horrific crimes. Much like a channeler. Should my hands be cut off in case I beat you? Should my foot be cut off before I kick you? My words might hurt you one day - should my tongue be cut out now? I might seduce your wife - best be on the safe side and cut off another of my weapons. But I still have the most dangerous one of all, my evil, evil brain. That must be controlled, cut out, destroyed - not in punishment for my crimes, but to make sure I never commit them. I see no reason for damane to be punished for what they are. I see no reason why someone whose eyes can produce laser beams (visible or otherwise) should have those eyes taken away to punish him for something he might never do.

 

 

No, Morgase *CLAIMS* that she's not above the law. When did we see her get punished by the law again?

When did we see her break it?

 

I find it funny that you're claiming that advocating independence through non-violent means is not democractic. Perrin never threatened to start an armed rebellion.

True, he didn't threaten it, he did it.

 

so you consider election by nobles proper democracy then? ok.

 

You were provided with facts that there are diff types of monarchies. Go back and read Manscher's posts about how houses work and democracy was started.

 

Yep and I thanked him for it, very enlightning though there are no constitutional monarchies or elected monarchies in the story at the moment.

 

ok let's look at the current system of monarchy in Andor and in Seanchan.

 

Andor gets in queen by being voted by the houses, nobles all.

So they queen gets voted in, but it's not an elected monarchy? That's a good one.

 

Seanchan gets to proclaim their Daughter of the Nine Moons once the Empress dies. Now, how did nobles in Seanchan get their titles?

Same way as those in the Westlands - most inherit, some are raised.

[FarShainMael]

political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.

 

Or a cannon..... Mat might want to watch out!

 

Funny that you stress the invisible part - I'm not aware of another sort of laser beam.

 

Lasers can be visible or invisible. The word 'laser' is an acronym for Light Amplification By Stimulated Emission of Radiation'. In this context, 'light' includes radiation from the near infrared to the near ultraviolet. I have worked with infrared laser diodes, and you will find red laser diodes in your CD or DVD players (look for a specification on the label of around 660nm, which is visible red). You will find blue lasers in, surprise, Blu-ray machines. Some gas lasers emit visible light, such as helium-neon (red). CO2 lasers produce infrared. The laser pointers used by lecturers do indeed contain lasers.

 

OK, you can wake up now..

[USURP888]

Why does it matter if laws are made by elected legislatures or proclamations from monarchs? Ruled people are ruled, whether or not they vote for their rulers, you've already admitted as much. Elected leaders can still hold the power of life and death over their citizens - some countries have, and others still had, the death penalty. So if ruled people are ruled, no difference between types of ruler, then who is not ruled? Those who rule, and those who are alone, clearly. So if you want to be free, there's only one thing for it, you'll have to strand yourself on a desert island.

 

I agree and that is exactly my point Mr Ares. I was pointing out that the Seanchan rules just the same as the Rest of the Randland rulers, if we accept that tne Randland can rule their way, we should accept that the Seanchan has their own ways as well.

 

Back when Mat first met Olver, a lordling was about to cut up the kid just for touching his horse and his own retainer thought it the lord's right. I submit that prior to Rand's coming this is the norm of the land.

Which land?

 

It was not said where that noble hailed from, He was a hunter of the horn was all the book said, but I remember a Tairen Lord talking to Mat at the stone expressing incredulity that they have been forbidden to abuse peasants anymore so I am assuming that prior to Rand's proclamation that is the norm.

 

 

Not exactly. The Seanchan government has a well developed beauracracy, more so than any of the Westlands nations. This allows them to administer their empire - including the newly added provinces - very efficiently. Given that Tarabon was in civil war and Altara was a country only according to the maps, the Seanchan were able to provide immediate benefits. Such as food, luxuries like that. They also maintain a strict rule of law - but the law can include you being executed for not bowing enough. You can be tortured to death simply because a Seeker has some vague suspicion (or maybe just felt like it). The Tinkers like it because the Seanchan are willing to extend their protection to the Tinkers rather than treating them as outcasts. To the average person, who is ruling frequently doesn't matter that much, at least when things are going well. Fortuona could order a man killed on a whim, she could order one to try on an a'dam just to see what happens. She might not, but such behaviour is perfectly legitimate in an empress. But really, there's precious little chance of that happening to you and yours, is there? So let the empress have her fun. As long as the people have their bread and circuses, they'll get by and won't be too bothered about living in a police state.

 

yes, and if I remember your initial reply to my query answered this very well as well, some people will trade freedom for more security and some would want more freedom depending on their experience. In Seanchan offers more security and even Beslan himself back in TGS bowed to Tuon when she promised her that under the Seanchan rule the Altarans will be more free, more secure and more prosperous and when we next see him in TOM, Beslan who loved his people far more than station in life has become Tuon's most loyal ally. So based on that I can say that Beslan did not find Seanchan rule so restrictive for his people at all. I would then say that in Seanchan though there are some laws that restrict freedom, they have provided their people more security and indeed freedom from want and from hunger at the least.

 

 

Only absolute monarchs rule absolutely. Given that Andor's military strength was concentrated in the hands of the nobility, with only a small standing army in the Queen's Guard, the answer to your question can be found in the following quote: political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. If the nobles have the swords, so they have the power. If the queen has the nobles, she has the swords, so she has the power. If the queen doesn't have the nobles, then she doesn't have the power. If the nobles don't have the swords, they don't have the power either. Of course, Elayne has the ability to become Andor's first absolute ruler, given that she has created a standing army. All she needs to do is defang the nobility. But as I said, she would be the first - previous Andoran monarchs were not absolute rulers.

 

Actually, they do - most successions are not wars. Even when wars are fought one must still gain the support of a majority of Great Houses. That makes it the very definition of an elected monarchy. It might not be a representative democracy, but no-one is claiming that it is - only that the queen is elected.

 

So they queen gets voted in, but it's not an elected monarchy? That's a good one.

 

There is a contradiction here I must say. If political power grows out of the barrel of a gun then there can never be an elected monarchy. The only reason Elayne needed support is not for the votes but for their armies. In theory then, if for example there is no queen and a claimant has enough power on his/her own far above the rest of the other nobles in Andor, he would not need any of their support nor their votes. By virtue of the power of the gun, he would be king or queen of andor.

 

 

Seanchan gets to proclaim their Daughter of the Nine Moons once the Empress dies. Now, how did nobles in Seanchan get their titles?

Same way as those in the Westlands - most inherit, some are raised.

 

I agree, then again like I said before. The Seanchan rule, save the damane ( this is for suttree in case ) are just the same as the rest of Randland. No difference, different rules but the rulers rule.

[Suttree]

There is a contradiction here I must say. If political power grows out of the barrel of a gun then there can never be an elected monarchy. The only reason Elayne needed support is not for the votes but for their armies. In theory then, if for example there is no queen and a claimant has enough power on his/her own far above the rest of the other nobles in Andor, he would not need any of their support nor their votes. By virtue of the power of the gun, he would be king or queen of andor.

 

This has been explained so many times in this post but let us go back to what actually happened in the books. For the entire succession war Elayne had far less armsmen than the other claimant. Both needed the majority of high seats votes. It didn't matter that her rival had quadruple her numbers. They were even in terms of support from the high seats. Elayne didn't gain control of of the more powerful houses men until AFTER she was named queen! The system is designed to check one house getting too powerful. If the example you gave ever happened that person would be in rebellion against the throne and the entire nation would rise up against them.

[Zentari]

 

I do not support the damane culture of the Seanchan, In that sentence you quoted I was trying to say that damane lacks freedom in Seanchan and I was arguing the fact that under monarchies all people lack freedom, to varying degrees yes, but they lack freedom nonetheless. That's why I was arguing that if we are to hate on the Seanchan for their practice we must not forget the fact that people in Randland lacks freedom as well.

And I submit to you that even in a democratic nation you lack total freedom.How much you lack depends on the place and time but wherever you are , you are under some form of restrictions because otherwise society would not function.

 

 

The trick is where you draw the line.Personally, I find the whole slave thing horrid, especially the brand of slavery practiced by Seanchan.

[lilltempest]

To be honest, I can never rationalize monarchies at all. What makes nobles above the rest of the masses? What gives them the right to rule over people?

 

Why heap hate on the Seanchan for enslaving damane when Kings and Queens of Randland demand the same of their people? Monarchies are nothing but dictatorship given a better title. Is it not written that nobles treat peasants little less than human that when Rand made proclamations to the effect that nobles cannot rape a peasant without consequence the Tairen Lords thought it was a joke at first?

 

So are we as readers supposed to be revolted when a channeler is enslaved but when unelected nobles lord it over the land it is ok? Either we accept the book as it is or we reject slaves and nobles as it is written in totality, do not nitpick that one enslavement is better than the other.

 

The book makes it clear, Even Rand said so himself, also the Tinkers. The Seanchan rule is better for the normal folks. If we take the masses opinion on the matter it is clear that the Seanchan is the best rulers in the land. That one aspect of their culture abhors the readers does not mean anything. When Mat is being called Prince of the Ravens in Andor, it is not with fear but with awe, even the people of andor treats that title with respect.

 

This...mostly.

 

Personally, I think the nobles in the Westlands are as bad as the Seanchan. I think the Aes Sedai are as bad as the Seanchan (the way the "try" men who can channel, as though they had some choice in being able to channel and going mad, makes me ill and their treatment of those men is no better than the way the Seanchan treat women who can channel). All of these groups have too much power, and that's the main problem. When power is consolidated, the "few" control the "many" and no longer see the "many" as anything other than chattel. Power corrupts everyone, no matter how good someone's intentions in the beginning (assuming they had good intentions to begin with!), and the possibility of losing power ends up driving people to do horrible things in order to keep it...mainly because, for the most part, people are a bunch of self-serving, selfish asses who care only for their own goals and desires. Anyway, I digress...

 

The one thing I find admirable about the Seanchan is the fact that their leader is taught to reflect on her own behavior and has someone there to call her down if need be. As you sad, the "common" people (for the most part) seem to do well under the Seanchan rule. However, even given how well the Tinkers and the like are doing under the Seanchan rule, I think the Empire needs to be disbanded. I also think the WT needs to lose its stranglehold on the world and the days of everyone kissing AS ass needs to stop. The ability to channel does not inherently make one better or worse than anyone else, so this bowing and scraping crap needs to stop. Ditto for all nobles. I'd like to see the whole WoT world get torn down to its foundation and have to start again with people working together instead of one group ruling another. There is a Rudyard Kipling poem that sums up my feelings on the matter quite well: "A Servant When He Reigneth".

 

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/a-servant-when-he-reigneth/

 

And one more note...

 

Were I a non-channeler in the WoT world, I'd want all channelers collared. The Aes Sedai are the equivalent to having a bunch of people walking around with nuclear warheads who claim they won't use them unless they are "threatened", while demanding everyone bow down and kiss their feet and insisting on being obeyed (all while you're supposed to believe they won't nuke you if you don't obey them). They're dangerous, controlling, arrogant, and untrustworthy. So yeah, if I had to live in that world, I'd say leash them - unless and until they can prove they are just "normal" people and don't expect special treatment anymore. The Wise Ones do a semi-fair job of this, but even they are arrogant and obnoxious and controlling.

[Erunion]

Ok, just to make everything clear for everyone, I'll do a comparison between Seanchan and Randland (an average of Randland, anyway. Pre-Rand Tairens society sucked, but Andorans and Borderlanders seem to have a relatively reasonable, just and equitable society).

The Aiel, Sharans and Seafolk are not taken into account, as their societies are just too different.

 

The Classes

 

TOP CLASS (IE, the Ruling Monarchs)

 

SEANCHAN:

 

WHAT THEY CAN DO: The Empress and her family have absolute power. They are able to, legally, do whatever the hell they want, whenever they want to. The only checks and balances are each other - an Empress who goes too far will be assassinated by someone else who wants the power. They are considered near-gods by the commoners, who are unable to look at, touch or even directly speak to them.

 

WHAT THEY DO DO: The Empress/Family rule by decree. They order executions on a whim, are immune to the rule of law and are known to have people killed, basically for fun (the Empress was known to chain a Damane to a man to see if they would both die screaming. Some did.)

They do these things, without fear of reprisal, as they are the Royal Family, the top of the top, the pinnacle of society.

 

RANDLAND:

 

WHAT THEY CAN DO: The King/Queen has nearly absolute power. The Monarch can order a death on a whim. The Monarch is checked by the High Nobility, and the general populace. While they could go on a reign of terror, it wouldn't last long, and wouldn't be supported by law.

 

WHAT THEY DO DO: Not a whole lot, really. As all the Randland societies (AFAIK) are Feudal in nature, the Monarch cannot significantly influence the entire nation without working with the High Lords and Ladies. Furthermore, the cultural stigma that are present in Seanchan (don't look, touch or speak to the Monarch on pain of death) the Monarch is much closer to their populace, understands them better and is kinder to their plight. Unfortunately, this is not a perfect system. An arrogant Monarch/Ruler (like those in Tear, for example) can ride roughshod over the lower populace and get away with it. However, the populace, even in Tear, can at least talk with the nobility and work with them (even though most of the nobles of Tear (the worst of the Randland nations that we've seen, by far) would be shocked by the idea).

 

 

SECOND TIER (The Nobility)

 

SEANCHAN:

 

WHAT THEY CAN DO: Pretty much anything the Empress can do, but only to people lower than them. They do, however, have some checks. If they anger someone above them, or act against the good of the Empire, the Seekers will come for them.

 

WHAT THEY DO DO: Pretty much whatever they want, as long as no one above them gets angry. They treat the populace worse, even, than the Tairen nobility do.

 

 

RANDLAND:

 

WHAT THEY CAN DO: A lot, but not everything. For the most part, they have to stay within the rule of law or the Monarch will come after them. However, they have a great deal of power, and can get away with way too much.

 

WHAT THEY DO DO: A lot of stuff, some good, some bad. For the most part, their is an understanding that they will provide justice and be good rulers, elsewise the populace will not be pleased, and the noble will likely get in trouble from above. Still, they have far too much power. Less than in Seanchan, but too much still.

 

 

THE THIRD TIER (average folk)

 

SEANCHAN:

 

WHAT THEY CAN DO: Not a lot. There is some mobility, but only real upward mobility is through the army. Still they have some small freedoms. HOWEVER, law dictates that they may not look at, touch, or even talk to the majority of the nobility. They are completely at the mercy of the nobility and the Seekers. They have no protection against the nobility, who can oppress them however they want.

 

WHAT THEY DO DO: They live, eat, work and the like in relative safety from crime and the like. While they have security from outside threats and hunger, they have no security against the nobility.

 

RANDLAND:

 

WHAT THEY CAN DO: They can move. They can leave the nation they are in, and go somewhere better if they don't like it. They can work with the nobility, or petition them. Failing that, they can petition the Monarch for justice.

 

WHAT THEY DO DO: Live in relative freedom and safety. Unfortunately, most of their safety has been eroded by the machinations of the Dark One, which has driven some of them to accept the relative safety of Seanchan rule.

 

 

THE FOURTH TIER (property)

 

SEANCHAN:

 

WHAT THEY CAN DO: Grovel. Pray. If they work really, really hard, they may get to become an Upper Servant, but there are only a few of those. Occasionally they have some mobility if they are part of a government organization (Deathwatch Guards, Seekers). They can be bought, sold, moved, carried, killed, raped, imprisoned or outright slaughtered in the streets with minimal repercussion.

 

WHAT THEY DO DO: Work. That's about it. They do what they are told to do, or they are punished. Pretty simple.

 

RANDLAND:

 

THIS CLASS DOES NOT EXIST (as far as I am aware. Tear was close, but they had some level of mobility, and the freedom to switch occupations or leave).

 

 

BOTTOM TIER (Non-persons)

 

SEANCHAN:

 

WHAT THEY CAN DO: Nothing. These people (Damane) aren't considered people, they are creatures who would be put down if they weren't so useful. Treated like animals, they are kept, broken, tortured and manipulated.

 

WHAT THEY DO DO: Nothing. Occasionally eat sweets, if they've been good Damane.

 

 

RANDLAND:

 

THIS CLASS DOES NOT EXIST.

 

 

Conclusions:

 

Seanchan society has one great benefit, a brilliant, clean and efficient bureaucracy. They are organized, and it pays off, with the populace being controlled, contained and fed. However, in Seanchan the separation between classes is incredible, with commoners being so ridiculously below the nobility, the fact that their is any upward mobility is a testament to the Seanchan Bureaucracy. However, the treatment of fellow humans as cattle is unconscionable. The Seanchan buy, sell and use members of the lowest two classes mercilessly. Randland society is not much better in the distinction between the first three classes, but the lowest two classes do not exist, and humans are always treated as humans, however low. Furthermore, many of the Randland societies show the possibility of improvement, both technologically and governmentally. Specifically, you have a Constitutional Monarchy in Illian which has the King, the Council of lords and the Council of Commons (names are wrong, sorry, it's been a while). This shows a shocking level of openness and the potential for growth, with power being eroded from the King/Lords and handed to the commons, which is exactly what happened in Great Britain. Andor, while not as developed as Illian, has some small level of election in the choice of government (even though it is rarely used, and disagreements often lead to bloodshed). Their, it is probable that the nobility and the (surprisingly powerful, if you read the text) peasantry will assert itself and the government will grow more and more constitutional.

Yes, Seanchan provides some level of stability through it's superb bureaucracy, but the governments of Randland show potential for true growth, as well as support to the rights and freedoms of the individual (although they lack the right to vote for federal government, they are rarely oppressed).

 

EDIT: Wow, that's a long post. Please forgive any spelling/grammatical errors, I'm really tired, and that's really long.

[capuga]

Long, pretty accurate post summarizing the various cultures and governments.

 

That was the best post in the entire thread. Impressed and pretty much agree with you.

[Durinax]

Erunian the only problem I have with your post is that we do not know enough of the average life in seanchan to make those claims, in fact a person could claim the opposite of what you said in that a commoner can move as far as they want without consequence, as per the seanchan settlers.

 

of course the damane life would be terrible and is in a class of its own (actually i would rank male channellers pre rands amnesty as worse they just recieved a slow death most cases)

 

as for property getting raped and such, tairen commoners would often get raped by the high lords and lesser lords, as made common knowledge by mats card game (when the cards tried to kill him) during which a noble commented how he should try to get rand to rescind the law allowing commoners to charge nobility of rape.

 

in many cases positive changes have been occuring recently, in fact too recently for us to consider them in a discussion such as this (as I am sure many nobility throughout the lands rape/abuse their chamber maids since they where often chosen as the most beautiful, etc) in fact I have to say that cairhein seems like it would be a cess pool for such behaviours (seeing as rand was cornered and multiple women where fighting to get their hands on him, let alone what their male counterparts would do)

[Stitch]

We know that sleeping with a Damane is considered quite vile (since Damane are basically animals, I assume that they consider this akin to bestiality) however I do not believe that the same applies to other Property, though many are shown to be highly valued and honoured servants, this is likely a subsection of them and no doubt such abuses of power exist.... however that is not simply because they are 'property' but rather because there is a large disparity in the amount of power they wield... and rapes are often enabled through such disparity.

[USURP888]

Erunion I would agree with most of your post except the slaves being mistreated. The only slaves we see being punished are those who were cast down as criminals or rebels. When Mat went down from the damane kennels, tuon told mat that to bed a damane is repulsive, that shows that to abuse them is such a way is not considered normal. We have not seen any slaves slaughtered or imprisoned from a whim, The deathwatch guards and the seekers are under the direct control of the high nobles. They die if they fail not because they are slaves.

 

For the most part I agree with your post, especially the conclusion. Seanchan offers greater security and Randland offers greater freedom. Just a quick note though, Beslan was ready to rebel and die for his people, not for glory or station. After being convinced by Tuon, we see him in TOM basically being the most loyal subject of Fortuona, if Beslan's people are being mistreated, I don't believe he would have been so loyal to the Seanchan.

[Suttree]

Erunian the only problem I have with your post is that we do not know enough of the average life in seanchan to make those claims, in fact a person could claim the opposite of what you said in that a commoner can move as far as they want without consequence, as per the seanchan settlers.

 

I think what Erunion meant is you are free to move to a nation with different laws. If say you are unhappy with Tairen lords(far and away the worst nation for commoners in Randland) you are free to move to Andor or the Borderlands. Where as for the Seanchan people you are dealing with a totalitarian police state no matter where you are. You cannot escape it. We do know from the books that people aren't all that content with their lot in life. General Miraj comments that in his time with the DW guards he has had to put down "numerous" rebellions. As for the earlier claims posters made of it being a meritocracy that is false.

 

BWB

 

Since Luthair's conquest, Seanchan has evolved into a nation that is stratified and has very little movement between the ranks. That is not to say that there are no power struggles, only that almost all of them are between members of the same class. The society is based on the concept that everyone has a place in which to serve, and everyone should be in their place.

[Erunion]

Thanks for the comments guys.

 

@Durinax: I actually do think we have enough evidence to make those claims, based on what we've read of Seanchan culture in the books and in the Big White Book. I agree with you on this though - the Seanchan peasant does have some mobility within their nation, but you cannot leave Seanchan dominance. The settlers were still thoroughly under the dominance of the upper ranks. But there does exist some mobility within the seanchan nation itself (as evidenced by the Damane flyer back a few books ago who intended to buy an inn one day).

On the rape issue, remember, Tear is the worst of the Randlander societies we've seen in regards to power disparities, and even their the Tairens have the opportunity to leave the country and go somewhere more equitable. Not many do it, but it is possible.

Property, on the other hand, would be executed if they tried to flee (or maimed, mutilated or otherwise punished).

 

EDIT: Thanks Suttree, we posted at about the same time