Aes Sedai and the White Tower

[Stitch]

I think that Aes Sedai (Servants of All) have forgotten the reason for which they exist; they have made serving the White Tower itself out to be the purpose of Aes Sedai, they have created a symbol of what they stood for and then taken that symbol as being more important than the original cause itself. They may have originally taken only the occasional hand in things, but as the outcomes proved good, over time they began to become more and more active - manipulating what they could for the good of their cause, then it became for the good of the White Tower, then it became for the gain they could see.

 

Manipulating for the sake of a cause likely changed over time until it is what we see now, manipulating for the sake of whatever gain they can perceive. Don't like the way someone spoke to you? Thats an insult to the tower! Lets get their neighboring country to invade! A slow degeneration from those worthy of respect to those worthy of distrust and fear, of course well concealed behind respect.

[Zentari]

 

Keep pulling names because Hurin is a borderlander. We included them because they are the only other group besides AS who routinely fight the shadow.

Besides the fact that routinely is up in the air you mean ?

 

Min,Avy,Logain,Loial (:p),Melaine,Nalesean,Darlin,Juilin etc.Could go on and on.

 

As for how I can dismiss her and not Talmanes,it's simply.Talmanes WAS actually instrumental in keeping the band.Much more than an average hired sword and certainly much more than an average Aes Sedai.

 

In relation to Maradon are you really going to blame the AS when the borderland rulers were totally negligent in guarding their own countries? Talk about useless. As for Egwene's reaction I really don't recall what happened in ToM. Did she get word of the battle in time and refuse to send help? I thought she heard about it in retrospect although it has been some time I could be wrong.

Weren't you the one claiming their usefulness ? What was their damn battle ajah doing ? Oh, yeah, sitting and drinking tea apparently.Talk about useless.And Maradon is hardly the first time they failed.

 

Also , she completely ignored it.

[USURP888]

I don't recall the AS having a major role in rescuing Rand at Dumai Wells, They had to wait until they felt in danger before helping out the Aiel and Perrin. In any case, it was the Ashaman that made the Shaido retreat.

 

Tam al'thor, Min, the Aiel, Talmanes, Jain Farstrider, Thom Merrilin - people not of the borderland that have contributed more against the AS as a whole.

 

To say that you are the White Tower and the hope of the world and when the borderlands start to get swamped with Trollocs you only hear report after the fact is laughable. The fact that the borderland army is MIA, shouldn't that be the first priority for Egwene to tackle seeing that Elaida did not care much? Shouldn't there be a heavy presence of green Ajah all along the borderland countries to prevent another Malkier situation? Now that the travelling weave has been rediscovered this shouldn't really be a problem right? When Egwene received the report about trollocs attacking the borderlands, did she send AS to help? no, she asks do they hold? and please don't say she could have done it off screen, if it wasn't written it did not happen.

 

The White Tower is so into politics that they almost failed Nynaeve because of jealousy. As Nynaeve herself pointed out to Egwene, it has lost its focus. Moiraine wrote to Rand not to trust anybody who is now AS, not Verin not Alviarin, did she know they were both Black, I don't really know but it's telling that Moiraine considers all of the AS untrustworthy.

[Suttree]

 

Keep pulling names because Hurin is a borderlander. We included them because they are the only other group besides AS who routinely fight the shadow.

Besides the fact that routinely is up in the air you mean ?

 

Min,Avy,Logain,Loial (:p),Melaine,Nalesean,Darlin,Juilin etc.Could go on and on.

 

 

 

In relation to Maradon are you really going to blame the AS when the borderland rulers were totally negligent in guarding their own countries? Talk about useless. As for Egwene's reaction I really don't recall what happened in ToM. Did she get word of the battle in time and refuse to send help? I thought she heard about it in retrospect although it has been some time I could be wrong.

Weren't you the one claiming their usefulness ? What was their damn battle ajah doing ? Oh, yeah, sitting and drinking tea apparently.Talk about useless.And Maradon is hardly the first time they failed.

 

Also , she completely ignored it.

 

With statements as dead wrong as this is there any doubt as to why I'm asking you for quotes? I checked and she found out after the Battle of Maradon was over and heard a report of trollocs invading the borderlands. She is told that they hold and immediately has Siuan get the blue network started gathering more information. She even ignores AS decorum because she takes the threat so seriously. She is planning on how to best deal with invasion. Gathering intelligence, the first step in fighting a war.

 

ToM

 

Silviana nodded curtly. She didn't state the obvious-that the Blue network was the Blue Ajahs, not to be preempted by the Amrylin. Well, the Last Battle was at hand. Some concessions had to be made.

 

Yes in general borderlanders have done far more than most to combat the shadow. Was just pointing out you can hardly blame AS when their own rulers failed so spectacularly here. Didnt you mention a standard of expectation of which everyone has to be held? Also could you please provide the quote where Egwene ignored the situation(don't doubt it, just want to read).

 

Min, Avi,& Logain have all done their part. Although it could be argued that the top AS have done more. AS for the rest on your list their is no comparison. But keep trying, go on you have the whole world to choose from, not just one small group. Looks like no one else is living up to your so called "standards".

 

Tam al'thor, Min, the Aiel, Talmanes, Jain Farstrider, Thom Merrilin - people not of the borderland that have contributed more against the AS as a whole.

 

Farstrider was a pawn of the shadow for most of his life. Min and Thom I'll give you but the rest don't come remotely close to matching the AS list provided earlier. You all cant just ignore the history of the world since the breaking. The White Tower no matter how far fallen has stood against the shadow and fought for the light more so than any other group. Rand wouldn't even exist except for Gitara. He wouldn't have been found if not for Tamra, Moiraine and Siuan. Their "meddling" has put the light in a position to win.

 

Below is a partial list from Yoniy0

 

Moiraine, Siuan, Tamra, Gitara, Verin - I take it I don't need to explain what they did against the Shadow, right?

Leane - preserved Logain with Siuan, helped making Egwene the Amyrlin, helped Egwene gain control, directly helped deposing Elaida.

Cadsuane - caught how many false dragons and male channelers? Almost exposed the Black once, fought Shadowspawn without a doubt, saved Rand's life multiple times, enabled the Cleansing of the Source...

Pevara, Seaine, Searin, Yukiri, Dosaine - fought the Black, exposed a few. Helped Egwene keep the Tower from falling apart (hey, if that's not important, why did Mesaana do anything in her power to make it happen?). Searin helped repel the Seanchan. Pevara's helping mend relations with the Ashaman, not to mention her role in whatever's going down right now at the BT

Tarna - saved somethings from Elaida's blunderings. That's enough, in my book. And she tried doing something about the Ashaman.

Bera, Kiruna - been instrumental in leading the AS who swore to Rand. Helped saving him from the Shaido. Did good on his behalf.

Anaiya - helped Moiraine in the past. Helped Egwene in recent times.

Teslyn - well, not much beyond warning the supergirls, that's right. Oh, yeah, she saved Mat from the Gholam. And she has a good head on her shoulders, we've seen that.

Merise - in the Cleansing alone she did more for the Light than almost anyone else who wasn't there. For that matter:

Elza - killed a Forsken. The only AS ever to do so (well, Moiraine was instrumental in Lanfear's death, Nynaeve in Rahvin's).

 

Feel free to compare any other group INCLUDING the borderlanders and tell me the AS dont match up standing against the shadow.

[Stitch]

I would point out one of the major limitations about your request while disallowing the borderlanders is that the borderlanders have historically done their job very well, preventing trollocs from getting past them. As a result only really the Borderlanders and the Aeil have been at war with them regularly... You are attempting to say who else fights them yet there arent many other groups that have had exposure to them because of the effectiveness of the borderlanders. As for the Aes Sedai? Well we dont hear about them going up north to battle the blight very often, but when they chip in its appreciated of course.

 

edit: as for recently? yes the borderlanders screwed up. no question. perhaps they had to go meet the dragon but they shouldnt have dragged their droops away from their stations... perhaps it has something to do with their prophecy which is yet to be revealed? dont know

 

Oh and if we are talking about groups that routinely battle other forces of Darkness then what about those rather vile Whitecloaks.... or Fain if you want to go in that direction. The whitecloaks are generally foul but not truly 'evil' in terms of the evil shown in WoT which invariably comes from the Dark One, instead they are portrayed as being fanatical. Fain is also presented as something that is not evil... but rather something twisted or fouled, a madness if you will. However each of them detest and go out of their way to battle what they perceive as being forces of Darkness.

[USURP888]

Moiraine, Siuan, Tamra, Gitara, Verin - I take it I don't need to explain what they did against the Shadow, right?

Leane - preserved Logain with Siuan, helped making Egwene the Amyrlin, helped Egwene gain control, directly helped deposing Elaida.

Cadsuane - caught how many false dragons and male channelers? Almost exposed the Black once, fought Shadowspawn without a doubt, saved Rand's life multiple times, enabled the Cleansing of the Source...

Pevara, Seaine, Searin, Yukiri, Dosaine - fought the Black, exposed a few. Helped Egwene keep the Tower from falling apart (hey, if that's not important, why did Mesaana do anything in her power to make it happen?). Searin helped repel the Seanchan. Pevara's helping mend relations with the Ashaman, not to mention her role in whatever's going down right now at the BT

Tarna - saved somethings from Elaida's blunderings. That's enough, in my book. And she tried doing something about the Ashaman.

Bera, Kiruna - been instrumental in leading the AS who swore to Rand. Helped saving him from the Shaido. Did good on his behalf.

Anaiya - helped Moiraine in the past. Helped Egwene in recent times.

Teslyn - well, not much beyond warning the supergirls, that's right. Oh, yeah, she saved Mat from the Gholam. And she has a good head on her shoulders, we've seen that.

Merise - in the Cleansing alone she did more for the Light than almost anyone else who wasn't there. For that matter:

Elza - killed a Forsken. The only AS ever to do so (well, Moiraine was instrumental in Lanfear's death, Nynaeve in Rahvin's).

 

Leane - self preservation and helped the white tower. not fight the shadow

Pevara ( black ajah hunters ) fought the shadow by hunting the rot from their own organization the white tower

Tarna - again, white tower politics only

Bera, Kiruna et al. did not save Rand, the Aiel, Perrin and the Ashaman were the ones who saved Rand. the AS helped only after they were in danger.

Anaiya - helped AS

Elza - black ajah who killed the forsaken to further DO's goal in keeping Rand alive.

 

Moiraine, Siuan, Tamra, Gitara, Verin - All of them wanted to manipulate Rand, to make him a puppet of the tower in the guise of "guiding" him. only Moiraine surrendered and accepted that the Dragon Reborn. Verin I have no complaints above and beyond the call of duty

Cadsuane - no questions, she has done alot for the light by being the tough aunt Rand needed.

Teslyn - in saving Mat, she has contributed to the light immensely no question

Merise - replaceable by any other AS but she did help so points for her

[Zentari]

With statements as dead wrong as this is there any doubt as to why I'm asking you for quotes? I checked and she found out after the Battle of Maradon was over and heard a report of trollocs invading the borderlands. She is told that they hold and immediately has Siuan get the blue network started gathering more information. She even ignores AS decorum because she takes the threat so seriously. She is planning on how to best deal with invasion. Gathering intelligence, the first step in fighting a war.

A glorified way of saying sitting on her ass.Telling someone to keep an eye out on something is not the same thing as PREPARING for it.Unless you have access to more quotes that show her making ANY short of preparations for it.Until then, she is not planning to deal with it in any way what-so-ever.

 

Yes in general borderlanders have done far more than most to combat the shadow. Was just pointing out you can hardly blame AS when their own rulers failed so spectacularly here.

Actually , as the self proclaimed bastion of light, you can.If I also recall correctly, didn't the borderlands pay a tithe or something ? Little fuzzy on the details.

 

Min, Avi,& Logain have all done their part. Although it could be argued that the top AS have done more. AS for the rest on your list their is no comparison. But keep trying, go on you have the whole world to choose from, not just one small group. Looks like no one else is living up to your so called "standards".

If the top AS include the wondergirls then allow me to say the the taveren have done WAY more.My list could go on and on,just not feeling like it.Besides when your reaction is this ("NOPE") without even bothering to state reasons,as I at least did on the one that was previously posted, can you blame me ?

 

 

Farstrider was a pawn of the shadow for most of his life. Min and Thom I'll give you but the rest don't come remotely close to matching the AS list provided earlier. You all cant just ignore the history of the world since the breaking. The White Tower no matter how far fallen has stood against the shadow and fought for the light more so than any other group. Rand wouldn't even exist except for Gitara. He wouldn't have been found if not for Tamra, Moiraine and Siuan. Their "meddling" has put the light in a position to win.

Do you truly believe that an event as monumental as the birth of the DR hanged in the balance of one fortune-telling by an AS ?

You are also pointing out the good points while completely ignoring the bad ones.Like how little their meddling would be needed if say, their organization wasn't festering with Darkfriends.

 

And on that note , I'm out for a while because this is getting nowhere.Denial , it seems, is as strong as ever.On the parting note , a question: if the average aes sedai did her job competently , then why is the world in such a bloody mess ? And no ,just because it survived does not excuse them for making it like this. Think about that before you start claiming competence.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

if the average aes sedai did her job competently , then why is the world in such a bloody mess ?

 

Because if the Aes Sedai are incompetent, so too are the majority of the population. You want to say that for the Aes Sedai? You can say that for almost anyone in the population of the world that we don't see on screen, which constitutes most of the people.

 

Anyway, as the chinese proverb says, "gua bu di zhong". Few cannot stand against many. So even if the Aes Sedai were on average competent, the world could still be in a 'bloody mess' as you put it, especially with Ishamael coming back and blasting whatever order was gathered in the last thousand years to smithereens.

[Barid Bel Medar]

if the average aes sedai did her job competently , then why is the world in such a bloody mess ?

 

Because if the Aes Sedai are incompetent, so too are the majority of the population. You want to say that for the Aes Sedai? You can say that for almost anyone in the population of the world that we don't see on screen, which constitutes most of the people.

 

Anyway, as the chinese proverb says, "gua bu di zhong". Few cannot stand against many. So even if the Aes Sedai were on average competent, the world could still be in a 'bloody mess' as you put it, especially with Ishamael coming back and blasting whatever order was gathered in the last thousand years to smithereens.

 

This, I agree with.

 

They are ALL incompetent. Not just the Aes Sedai. Society has fallen and the DO is superior (before the ta'veren came along, this is) the world as a whole is in terrible state. Sure, the Aes Sedai, as self proclaimed leaders of the world are doin a poor job, but you cant blame them ENTIRELY. They are just like any other. Corrupted, beaten down and used by the shadow.

 

They are certainly a mess, and a pale shadow to what they were, but "useless" is going a bit far.

 

Channeling has been a major force in the fight against the DO. The Aes Sedai have been absent (in the series) for the most part, what with the squabbling in the White Tower and the mess Egwene was left to pick up, but in the Trolloc Wars and Breaking they were important. Lets just say that if there were no White Tower (up until about 300 years prior to the current events) the world would be in a worse state. However, that doesnt mean they did well. Just did enough.

 

I think the question is a bit confused. It needs clarification.

 

Are the Aes Sedai AS A WHOLE proving to be as useful as a wet fireplace?

or

Are Aes Sedai completely useless.

 

 

In regards to the latter. As mentioned above many times, there are individual Aes Sedai that have done, and are doing great things. Egwene, Nynaeve, Pevera, Suian, Leane, Verin (I mean, she makes up for all of them, no?) Moiraine (again, kill count Forsaken, 2 amongst other things) Cadsuane... the list is short, but definitely of note.

 

So in that regards, the Aes Sedai have been rather vital. If these Aes Sedai didnt exist, things wouldnt work out. I mean, Rand apparently cannot win without Moiraine.

 

IN regards to the Former, the ORGANIZATION OF THE WHITE TOWER has been largely absent from the fight. Not their fault really. They were basically brought to their knees by the Forsaken and the Black Ajah. The White Tower, in this series, so far has been a broken tool. Individuals FROM the Tower have done great things, but the Tower as a whole has been effectively running at about 5%. Some might even say they have done more to harm the world than help it. Ie - attacking Rand, the Black Tower etc.. (but then, it was the Black Ajah, and Elaida)

 

Basically, it comes down to the fact that they see themselves as the main power of the world. And they are not. They have been awful, in short. However, they are not useless. They have done SOME things. Its just that compared to their capacity to do things, What with the OP and the largest group of Channelers in the world, they fall woefully short.

 

I think of it like this.

 

Comparing a farmer (less powerful groups such as The Band, Nations, Borderlanders etc...) to a Swordsmaster (the White Tower). In terms of capability, the farmer doesnt have anything on th Swordsmaster.

 

However, the Swordsmaster is half asleep and fighting with one arm. While the Farmer is giving everything they have in their soul.

 

Thats the difference, and thats why, I think, alot of people see the Aes Sedai as incompetent fools.

[Suttree]

Do you truly believe that an event as monumental as the birth of the DR hanged in the balance of one fortune-telling by an AS ?

 

Well I believe what RJ told us, so yes I do. Gitara was the one who sent Tigraine to the Aiel Waste convincing her that the fate of the world depended on her joining the maidens. No small feat considering she was the Daughter Heir of Andor. So yes based on the story it hung on the balance of Gitara's fortune telling and then "meddling" to make it happen.

 

Like how little their meddling would be needed if say, their organization wasn't festering with Darkfriends.

 

On the parting note , a question: if the average aes sedai did her job competently , then why is the world in such a bloody mess ? And no ,just because it survived does not excuse them for making it like this. Think about that before you start claiming competence.

 

Sigh.

 

Yes there are DF within the tower, AS there are in every society the world over. Which brings us back to YoniyO's question, which others have now raised, that you conveniently ignored.

 

Please do me this favor, though: try to decide what it is you expect of them, what criteria they fail that the general population passes.

[jwood01]

Although Barid, if that farmer has a quarter staff he may be able to defeat two quality swordsmen that have both hands!

 

Anyways, the original question was of course a total black and white simplification.

 

I think Suttree has persuaded me for the most part. It is actually amazing that the Aes Sedai and the WT have been as effective as they have given how dysfunctional their organization is and how prone it is to shooting itself in the foot, e.g., Fall of Manetheren, deposing and stilling Siuan, being divided when the world arguably needs them most, contributing greatly to Rands march to the shadow, not preventing the borderlanders from leaving their posts at the most inopportune time, and worst of all, failing to acknowledge and deal with the BA's significant influence in the WT.

[jwood01]

Laying the Fall of Malkier at the feet of the WT is probably unfair since the other borderland nations were late with their aid as well. After reading the WoT Wiki page, it looks like Malkier's demise can be laid at the feet of Malkier itself. Even more tragic I guess.

 

I'll edit my other post.

[Suttree]

Society has fallen and the DO is superior (before the ta'veren came along, this is) the world as a whole is in terrible state. Sure, the Aes Sedai, as self proclaimed leaders of the world are doin a poor job, but you cant blame them ENTIRELY. They are just like any other. Corrupted, beaten down and used by the shadow.

 

 

Channeling has been a major force in the fight against the DO. The Aes Sedai have been absent (in the series) for the most part, what with the squabbling in the White Tower and the mess Egwene was left to pick up, but in the Trolloc Wars and Breaking they were important. Lets just say that if there were no White Tower (up until about 300 years prior to the current events) the world would be in a worse state.

 

This.

 

Yes the AS are fallen from what they once were. The fact remains however at every crucial junction in History...Breaking, Trolloc Wars, birth of the DR there have been AS working against the shadow, ensuring that the light lives to make it to the last battle. Without Latra, Rashima Kerenmosa, Gitara, Tamra, Moriane, Siuan, Cads, Verin etc the shadow would have already won.

[jwood01]

Society has fallen and the DO is superior (before the ta'veren came along, this is) the world as a whole is in terrible state. Sure, the Aes Sedai, as self proclaimed leaders of the world are doin a poor job, but you cant blame them ENTIRELY. They are just like any other. Corrupted, beaten down and used by the shadow.

 

 

Channeling has been a major force in the fight against the DO. The Aes Sedai have been absent (in the series) for the most part, what with the squabbling in the White Tower and the mess Egwene was left to pick up, but in the Trolloc Wars and Breaking they were important. Lets just say that if there were no White Tower (up until about 300 years prior to the current events) the world would be in a worse state.

 

This.

 

Yes the AS are fallen from what they once were. The fact remains however at every crucial junction in History...Breaking, Trolloc Wars, birth of the DR there have been AS working against the shadow, ensuring that the light lives to make it to the last battle. Without Latra, Rashima Kerenmosa, Gitara, Tamra, Moriane, Siuan, Cads, Verin etc the shadow would have already won.

 

Case closed

[Sleeper]

Society has fallen and the DO is superior (before the ta'veren came along, this is) the world as a whole is in terrible state. Sure, the Aes Sedai, as self proclaimed leaders of the world are doin a poor job, but you cant blame them ENTIRELY. They are just like any other. Corrupted, beaten down and used by the shadow.

 

 

Channeling has been a major force in the fight against the DO. The Aes Sedai have been absent (in the series) for the most part, what with the squabbling in the White Tower and the mess Egwene was left to pick up, but in the Trolloc Wars and Breaking they were important. Lets just say that if there were no White Tower (up until about 300 years prior to the current events) the world would be in a worse state.

I would agree with the core of this assessment as well.

[Zentari]

if the average aes sedai did her job competently , then why is the world in such a bloody mess ?

 

Because if the Aes Sedai are incompetent, so too are the majority of the population. You want to say that for the Aes Sedai? You can say that for almost anyone in the population of the world that we don't see on screen, which constitutes most of the people.

 

Anyway, as the chinese proverb says, "gua bu di zhong". Few cannot stand against many. So even if the Aes Sedai were on average competent, the world could still be in a 'bloody mess' as you put it, especially with Ishamael coming back and blasting whatever order was gathered in the last thousand years to smithereens.

So it's ok being incompetent when everyone else is too ? What kind of logic is that ? On that matter, why are you bunching the Aes Sedai with the foolish farmer or petty noble ? Aren't they supposed to be a little above this ?

 

 

 

Well I believe what RJ told us, so yes I do. Gitara was the one who sent Tigraine to the Aiel Waste convincing her that the fate of the world depended on her joining the maidens. No small feat considering she was the Daughter Heir of Andor. So yes based on the story it hung on the balance of Gitara's fortune telling and then "meddling" to make it happen.

Right.

 

 

Sigh.

 

Yes there are DF within the tower, AS there are in every society the world over.

"Everybody does it, so it's ok for them too."

 

The red ajah thread contains some interesting numbers,look it up. Granted statistics can be twisted around to show anything but you have to admit sometimes they are a good indication ...

 

Also, it's very telling when said DFs manage to depose the the person in charge and install a blathering idiot in her place (let's face it,even a normal AS would be better than Elaida ,simply because she would have less megalomania.Siuan was better for the job by a wide margin ),unless you assume that the DFs had no influence in this decision ,in which case it's even more damning.

 

Which brings us back to YoniyO's question, which others have now raised, that you conveniently ignored.

Please do me this favor, though: try to decide what it is you expect of them, what criteria they fail that the general population passes.

I have answered it pretty bluntly.Scroll up and read my posts again.

[MasterAblar]

if the average aes sedai did her job competently , then why is the world in such a bloody mess ?

 

Because if the Aes Sedai are incompetent, so too are the majority of the population. You want to say that for the Aes Sedai? You can say that for almost anyone in the population of the world that we don't see on screen, which constitutes most of the people.

 

Anyway, as the chinese proverb says, "gua bu di zhong". Few cannot stand against many. So even if the Aes Sedai were on average competent, the world could still be in a 'bloody mess' as you put it, especially with Ishamael coming back and blasting whatever order was gathered in the last thousand years to smithereens.

So it's ok being incompetent when everyone else is too ? What kind of logic is that ? On that matter, why are you bunching the Aes Sedai with the foolish farmer or petty noble ? Aren't they supposed to be a little above this ?

 

 

 

Well I believe what RJ told us, so yes I do. Gitara was the one who sent Tigraine to the Aiel Waste convincing her that the fate of the world depended on her joining the maidens. No small feat considering she was the Daughter Heir of Andor. So yes based on the story it hung on the balance of Gitara's fortune telling and then "meddling" to make it happen.

Right.

 

 

Sigh.

 

Yes there are DF within the tower, AS there are in every society the world over.

"Everybody does it, so it's ok for them too."

 

The red ajah thread contains some interesting numbers,look it up. Granted statistics can be twisted around to show anything but you have to admit sometimes they are a good indication ...

 

Also, it's very telling when said DFs manage to depose the the person in charge and install a blathering idiot in her place (let's face it,even a normal AS would be better than Elaida ,simply because she would have less megalomania.Siuan was better for the job by a wide margin ),unless you assume that the DFs had no influence in this decision ,in which case it's even more damning.

 

Which brings us back to YoniyO's question, which others have now raised, that you conveniently ignored.

Please do me this favor, though: try to decide what it is you expect of them, what criteria they fail that the general population passes.

I have answered it pretty bluntly.Scroll up and read my posts again.

 

Well power corrupts, and the aes sedai are powerfull. Also I imagine the shadow would try as hard as possible to influce the WT. Harder than with regular people.

[Zentari]

 

Well power corrupts, and the aes sedai are powerfull. Also I imagine the shadow would try as hard as possible to influce the WT. Harder than with regular people.

Hm, you have a point there.Now that I think about it , didn't Ishamael create the black ajah or something ?

[MasterAblar]

 

Well power corrupts, and the aes sedai are powerfull. Also I imagine the shadow would try as hard as possible to influce the WT. Harder than with regular people.

Hm, you have a point there.Now that I think about it , didn't Ishamael create the black ajah or something ?

 

I believe so. Around the time of the Trolloc Wars I think.

[EvilSocrates]

I think Suttree's test is useful: "Please do me this favor, though: try to decide what it is you expect of them, what criteria they fail that the general population passes." I shall attempt to outlines exactly that.

 

I believe the source of frustration that many (myself included) have with the Aes Sedai, is that they are terrible at their self-proclaimed jobs, and then act like they deserve all the respect in the world. Most Southlanders don't do anything against the Shadow, and that is true, but they wouldn't say to you "don't speak that way to a Southlander boy, where is your respect? Don't you know we are the core of the light!" Like Aes Sedai do. They are TERRIBLE at actually accomplishing what they, according to themselves, are supposed to be doing. Look at the Ajahs! How do they battle the Shadow?

 

Red: Ironically, the only Ajah that actually does it's job. This is funny because they are the "evil" Ajah and filled with man-hating ice lesbian stereotypes.

 

Blue: We have no real evidence of what all of the "causes" the Blues get caught up in are, so they are hard to grade. I don't know, perhaps they are trying? Many of them still stay in the Tower most of their lives, and they seem to be an Ajah that is particularly fond of playing politics. They appear to try to manipulate rulers and power centers (and other AS). Doesn't strike me as particularly useful, as warfare is still rampant and they devote most of their energy to strengthening "Tower Interests." They don't for example, get Andor to send troops to the Borderlands to help out, they instead meddle with the Great Game and feud with the Reds.

 

Grey: They apparently serve as negotiators and mediators. This is not a particularly useful field in any case, and, has absolutely nothing to do with the Power. I don't remember "can you shoot lightning" being a critical part of law school applications.

 

Brown: Again, these people are simply scholars, and they aren't even that good at it. Rand's school was a greater bastion of learning almost immediately. Perhaps because, again, the ability to use magic is not related to intelligence or creativity.

 

White: you have got to be kidding me. You fight the shadow by...thinking about logic? What does that even mean? Do you just do number theory all day? What does that have to do with the Power? What?

 

Yellow: One of the worst. "We focus on healing, but don't actually set up centers of healing or hospitals or anything. We mostly just sit in the Tower and struggle with other AS for political power like everyone else."

 

Green: The worst. What kind of "battle Ajah" sits in the Tower in a WORLD WITH THE BLIGHT. How many of them have seen combat? They don't train to fight, they don't go out with Borderland armies, they don't do ANYTHING. Ash'aman are what a battle Ajah would actually look like.

 

So in sum, perhaps they do more good than bad in modern days, its hard to judge. Perhaps the efforts of the Greys and Blues help at the margin. But they are definitely a squandered resource, and the definitely do not deserve the respect the demand. They do not use their power responsibly, let alone in such a way as to consider themselves a bastion of the light.

[DemandredFO]

Yes the borderlanders were MIA at the Battle of Maradon and Egwene may not have learned of the invasion until later but does that excuse her. They have travelling, you dispatch Green scouts as soon you recapture the Tower. Eye and ears are fine, but they're human. They can't retreat through a gateway if shadowspawn come calling, they can't charr a Trolloc or Myrdraal from a long distance; an AS has a much better chance of getting through shadowspawn with a message than a tavernkeeper say. As I said, Ituralde, some AM, renegade saldeans and Rand saved Maradon. As for Malkier, DF's and twisted honor doomed malkier, but the so called Battle Ajah should have watchposts in the Borderlands. Also as I said, the fact that one of the Best AS, servant of All, was BA proves that the Tower is rotten to the core. There are plenty of individual sisters that have been vital, the ones at Dumais Well don't count because they had to try to get killed before they could help. Same with the AS with Mat. Nost of them made this up in other ways

[Elan Tedronai]

Force against the shadow or useless meddlers?

 

 

LOL, Has everyone forgotten moriaine already?

[solarz]

To judge the merits of the White Tower in 3000 years of history of the 3rd Age, we need to look at the *entire* history, and not just episodes.

 

Every organization has its ups and downs. Empires rise and fall. The most remarkable thing about the White Tower is that it is the one organization in Randland (aside from the Aiel) that has survived 3000 years.

 

To get a sense of what that means, the Ten Nation Covenant was something like the first Golden Age of the 3rd Age. It was during a time when there were still a lot of lore from the Age of Legends left over, and the entire known world was at peace. Reading Moiraine's description of Manetheren, we get a sense of great civilization that has since been irrevocably lost. The Aes Sedai were powerful and respected. The last Queen of Manetheren was a very powerful Aes Sedai.

 

Then the Trolloc Wars happened. Though humanity survived, the Ten Nations did not. Civilization was shattered and humanity plunged into a new Dark Age. Yet, the White Tower remained.

 

Arthur Hawkwing rose to power and built Randland's 2nd Golden Age. The AS became distrusted and even hated, and Hawkwing laid siege to Tar Valon. When Hawkwing died, his empire crumbled. The Hundred Year War was almost as devastating as the Trolloc Wars, destroying what little remained of knowledge from the Age of Legends. Despite all this, the White Tower remained.

 

Reading The Great Hunt, one gets the sense that humanity is on the decline in Randland. Vast areas of wilderness lay unclaimed simply because nations did not have the strength to administer it. It was this bleakness that drove Ingtar to turn to the shadow.

 

Yes, the White Tower has fallen far from its height millenia ago, but it has survived while powerful nations had been shattered forever. Despite all their meddling, the White Tower nevertheless remains a shining beacon of light against the Shadow. People may distrust AS and grumble about their schemes, but when the Trollocs invade, it is to the White Tower that they look for guidance.

[Kahsm]

Force against the shadow or useless meddlers?

 

 

LOL, Has everyone forgotten moriaine already?

 

^^ This was my first thought. Moiraine and Siuan worked their asses off for the right reasons, and did it fairly competently it seems. It's silly to condemn the entire institution when obviously it can work.

 

Bottom line, if there were no Aes Sedai the world would already be done for because Moiraine wouldn't have been there to guide Rand at the start. And the only reason she did that was because she was Aes Sedai.

[USURP888]

Force against the shadow or useless meddlers?

 

 

LOL, Has everyone forgotten moriaine already?

 

Yes Moiraine, The person who seeked out Rand and actually HID what she did from the White Tower fearing that she would be killed or stilled.

 

Moiraine and Siuan DID NOT trust the white tower because they did not know who was black ajah amongst them, how is that a defense of the AS as a whole when the odd AS who do something exceptional does not trust the institution itself?