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We still don't know who killed Asmodean!!!


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The Forsaken that Grandael is responsible for killing are:

 

Aran'gar

 

Messanna

 

Sammael?

 

It has been a long while since I read the book, but I have vague memories of Grandael manipulating Sammael into a more aggressive stance against Rand, provoking their confrontation. Or do I need to start finding my old books and rereading them?

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I'm pretty sure there was a quote from Slayer saying his specialty was traitors. I don't know exactly where it is. I'll find it. I think there might be something saying he either wasn't afraid (at least terrified) of the Chosen... or something...

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It was implied at the beginning of the book that it was starting to become a bad habit of her killing the other Chosen, I always thought it was Graendal anyway. I didn't know it said that she was the killer in glossary at the end of ToM I'll have to check that later.

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The Forsaken that Grandael is responsible for killing are:

 

Aran'gar

 

Messanna

 

Sammael?

 

It has been a long while since I read the book, but I have vague memories of Grandael manipulating Sammael into a more aggressive stance against Rand, provoking their confrontation. Or do I need to start finding my old books and rereading them?

If any Chosen bears responsibility for killing Sammael, it's Moridin. After all, he saved Rand in Shadar Logoth and sent him to kill Sammael. No, Graendal can't, by any reasonable measure, be held responsible for Rand killing Sammael (remember, in FOH the plan was to lure Rand to attack Sammael - so Rand already had reason to go for him. And Sammael tried for a truce). As others have pointed out, she is responsible for Asmo.
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I take Mashadar killed Sammael, not Rand.

 

If I remember correctly, Rand was already planning for his war against Sammael before Sammael & Graendal were doing their meetings.

And If I remember correctly, none of Graendal's comments caused Sammael to go against Rand.

 

Graendal being the only one certain of Asmodean's death without having been told is the main thing that indicates to me that she killed him; same discussions with Sammael.

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It was revealed by Shaidar Haran that it was Graendal. :graendal:

Once again, it was only stated that she was "responsible" for Asmo's death. Just like Rand actually killed Aran'gar, we should be thinking on how the DO knows she was involved, perhaps? As to Asmo, it was one of the scenes we're to ready to accept, though Jordan was not so clever as he thought with his wordplay of the death scene and watching the fans squirm. Even he didn't know the details of how it was done, or if he did which he seemed to, with his later insistance on HOW and WHERE we still don't even see in his notes. Not unless Brandon can't reveal the full details of it, in case it is something we see exclusively at the Last Battle. Some new weave. Perhaps a True Power Weave nastier than Balefire. Although Asmo didn't have access and therefore could not see any TP weaves, the same as he couldn't see any Saidar weaves...hrm...almost as if the pattern itself just whisked him away. We've seen Balescreams, the very pattern changing men into carcasses stuffed with beetles or trees or flaming masses of black tar.

 

Probably one of the best things in the book, for we all saw so many villans and so many elaborate ways it had to have happened.

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The Glossary at the end of ToM confirms Graendal's murder of Asmodean :).

 

RJ stated that Asmodean was 'a cat that tried to cross the tracks and didn't quite make it'. Asmodean crossed the tracks by a) helping Rand b) betraying Graendal's location to Rand. I interpret the statement 'didn't quite make it' as Graendal being able to do it, luckily, while she was attending other matters. In fact I think I've heard that she was attending other matters at the time in Caemlyn.

Edited by PastorDeSemolaDeGranoDuro
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And the ToM Glossary entry for Graendel confirmed that she killed Asmodean.

 

I find it funny that the "Graendel did it" crowd think OTHER people are being pig-headed. But as some have said, the quote says "responsible for". That means we cannot know who 'pulled the trigger', so to speak. Maybe it was a darkfriend, or someone compelled? I'm not saying it's NOT her, I just want those who refuse to consider it was anyone else BUT her who actually did the deed to realize they're the stubborn ones who aren't accepting the facts, this time around.

 

On a similar note, you could say Lanfear was "responsible for" Asmo's death, since she's the one who made it so he couldn't defend himself.

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i think the phrase, "responsible for," is deliberately used in order to perpetuate the debate, which RJ got a kick out of. i don't think he wanted to put that final nail in the coffin of the who killed asmodean phenomenon (phenomena? manamana. . .). people will play bickering ninnies over this one forever.

 

(i don't know about "metadata." if it's not in the books, it's not in the books. and it is not clearly stated in the books. could have been, but wasn't. the commentaries on the text notwithstanding. commentaries aren't canon.)

Edited by cindy
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i think the phrase, "responsible for," is deliberately used in order to perpetuate the debate, which RJ got a kick out of. i don't think he wanted to put that final nail in the coffin of the who killed asmodean phenomenon (phenomena? manamana. . .). people will play bickering ninnies over this one forever.

 

(i don't know about "metadata." if it's not in the books, it's not in the books. and it is not clearly stated in the books. could have been, but wasn't. the commentaries on the text notwithstanding. commentaries aren't canon.)

 

Very possible, and I have nothing to say on the "metadata". I'm not trying to argue who killed Asmo. I just disapproved of those who would cite the glossary and then claim that as undeniable proof that she did the deed, and then go on to claim the doubters as wool-heads akin to taimandred-ers. Given their own cited evidence, there is absolutely room to speculate further. If that was RJ or Sanderson's goal, so be it, doesn't make the speculation illegitimate.

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ToM Glossary

 

Graendal: One of the Forsaken. Once known as Kamarile Maradim Nindar, a noted ascetic, she was the second of the Forsaken to decide to serve the Dark One. A ruthless killer, she was responsible for the deaths of Aran’gar and Asmodean and for the destruction of Mesaana.

We know that Graendal didn't personally kill Aran'gar or Mesaana. If she hadn't directly killed Asmodean either, why put in the "ruthless killer" part in this sentence? It's not 100% proof, but it's close enough for me you add all the other clues.

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ya, i agree with you KP. they certainly could have said she killed him, and how. they chose not to. as professional writers, they'd be on to that subtlety of language. it seems to me that they wanted people to continue enjoying the debate. i guess it serves to keep the story alive if things are left a bit uncertain.

 

as for why put in ruthless killer? why not? she was. for instance, charles manson is a ruthless killer. doesn't mean he wielded the knives in any of the murders of which he was convicted. as a matter of fact, he didn't wield the knives in most of them, IIRC. still, he's a ruthless killer, and responsible for the deaths.

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