Channeling at battle of Maradon

[Stormofheaven]

I haven't seen any discussion on this and I unfortunately cannot reference the page number as I am at work. However, There hasn't been any discussion on who the channelers were at Maradon fighting with the Shadow. THe ashaman (Cannot remember his name) stated he felt weaving so obviously it was male channelers. Possibly with Female as well.

 

Any ideas? I would guess it was the renegade Ashaman but any interesting theories out there?

[solarz]

Black Ajah is one obvious candidate. Nowhere is it said that the White Tower keeps track of all the Aes Sedai. There could be a large number of AS out in the world operating independently, and a large number of them could be BA.

 

As for male channelers, I imagine that a good number of men born with the spark would have turned to the Shadow in order to escape madness or being gentled.

[Demon_AS]

It could even have been some of the Asha'man in disguise. The Black Tower currently seems to be a veritable nest of vipers and Darkfriends lol, and I can't see why Taim wouldn't have been ordered by Demandred or whomever is charge of him to send a few of the lads in black to lend a hand.

 

I can think of reasons as to why that's a silly idea, too, but it's no more implausible than other suggestions lol. We know the Dark has Dreadlords, but side from the male Forsaken I don't think we've been introduced to any, yet, who weren't also Asha'man (Kisman, Rochaid et al).

[Hopefire]

Somewhere between twenty to twenty-five percent of the White Tower was Black Ajah. I'm sure warm bodies were found.

 

 

 

On a slightly different note, I got to thinking about the numbers of channelers. If I recall, the Shaido had 600 channeling Wise Ones. Assuming that they weren't benefiting from an abnormal percentage of Wise Ones, and assuming that the Wise Ones from other clans didn't defect (I don't recall reading that about any of them, so...) that would imply that the total channeling number of Wise Ones on Rand's side is about 6,600, assuming everyone was brought. The Kin, who've tied themselves to Elayne and Andor to date more strongly than to the White Tower, number around 2,000 if I recall correctly.

 

There are fifty Aes Sedai tied directly to the Asha'man after having been bonded, there are a little more than thirty Aes Sedai who've sworn to Rand (that number being down a little due to some of them being Black Ajah). Then there's the Aes Sedai who sat out the Tower conflict and gathered around Cadsuane (Corele, Merise, etc); they seem to be following Cadsuane, who's following Rand. No numbers have been specified for that group; at one point, it was mentioned that a third of the White Tower appeared to be sitting out the White Tower split, but I doubt that nearly so many sisters followed Cadsuane. Between those tied to the Black Tower, those sworn to Rand, and those who showed up to support Cadsuane I'd guess that Rand has over a hundred sisters following him.

 

Assuming that the White Tower had 1,000 sisters at the start of the series, which seems to be the most commonly quoted number, then Egwene currently has about 700 sisters or so under her command. Put into perspective with the number quoted earlier, it means that the White Tower can match the Shaido in numbers, barely.

 

Of course, there are nearly 2,000 novices, so the White Tower's numbers will soon increase dramatically. Still, the numbers situation is kind of funny. Even without considering the Sea Folk, Rand can theoretically rally about nine times as many trained female channelers as Egwene can.

[sandoz12]

I think it definitely would have been asha'man sent from the black tower (though there is no reason why it couldn't have been one of the forsaken). And quite possibly some black sisters as well.

[DemandredFO]

don't forget male Aiel who've been going to kill the dark one ever since they got to the waste. There were channelers at Maradon and with the trollocs who faced Perrin.

[solarz]

Assuming that the White Tower had 1,000 sisters at the start of the series, which seems to be the most commonly quoted number, then Egwene currently has about 700 sisters or so under her command. Put into perspective with the number quoted earlier, it means that the White Tower can match the Shaido in numbers, barely.

 

Of course, there are nearly 2,000 novices, so the White Tower's numbers will soon increase dramatically. Still, the numbers situation is kind of funny. Even without considering the Sea Folk, Rand can theoretically rally about nine times as many trained female channelers as Egwene can.

 

It's been repeatedly pointed out in the novels that while the non-Aes Sedai channelers might have some specialty weaves that rival or surpass the Aes Sedai, in general, the Aes Sedai mastery of weaves is much greater than that of any other channeler group.

 

There is a reason the Kin and the Windfinders are both so scared of the White Tower that they rely on subterfuge to hide their existence. It's not just about numbers.

[randsc]

Assuming that the White Tower had 1,000 sisters at the start of the series, which seems to be the most commonly quoted number, then Egwene currently has about 700 sisters or so under her command. Put into perspective with the number quoted earlier, it means that the White Tower can match the Shaido in numbers, barely.

 

Of course, there are nearly 2,000 novices, so the White Tower's numbers will soon increase dramatically. Still, the numbers situation is kind of funny. Even without considering the Sea Folk, Rand can theoretically rally about nine times as many trained female channelers as Egwene can.

 

It's been repeatedly pointed out in the novels that while the non-Aes Sedai channelers might have some specialty weaves that rival or surpass the Aes Sedai, in general, the Aes Sedai mastery of weaves is much greater than that of any other channeler group.

 

There is a reason the Kin and the Windfinders are both so scared of the White Tower that they rely on subterfuge to hide their existence. It's not just about numbers.

 

Not the Aiel. It has been repeatedly pointed out in the novels that the Aes Sedai's belief in the superiority of their weavings is risible.

[mbuehner]

They also have a large cache of angreals and sa'angreals. As Egwene showed in the Seanchan raid, that's a monstrous advantage.

[solarz]

Not the Aiel. It has been repeatedly pointed out in the novels that the Aes Sedai's belief in the superiority of their weavings is risible.

 

You must have been reading a different series then, because the Aiel were convinced that they had failed the Aes Sedai, and that the Aes Sedai would one day punish them. Their Wise Ones purposely avoided the Aes Sedai.

 

The Aiel Wise Ones also used every opportunity they could to squeeze knowledge out of Rand's AS. This is pretty much proof that the AS knew a lot more about the power that the WO didn't than vice versa.

 

What the book *did* show was the failure of AS arrogance, in that they believed that they were superior IN EVERY WAY, and that anyone not AS (i.e. Wilder) were just "children". That certainly does not invalidate the fact that the White Tower is the most powerful gathering of channelers in the world.

[randsc]

Not the Aiel. It has been repeatedly pointed out in the novels that the Aes Sedai's belief in the superiority of their weavings is risible.

 

You must have been reading a different series then, because the Aiel were convinced that they had failed the Aes Sedai, and that the Aes Sedai would one day punish them. Their Wise Ones purposely avoided the Aes Sedai.

 

The Aiel Wise Ones also used every opportunity they could to squeeze knowledge out of Rand's AS. This is pretty much proof that the AS knew a lot more about the power that the WO didn't than vice versa.

 

What the book *did* show was the failure of AS arrogance, in that they believed that they were superior IN EVERY WAY, and that anyone not AS (i.e. Wilder) were just "children". That certainly does not invalidate the fact that the White Tower is the most powerful gathering of channelers in the world.

 

You can snark all you want, you're still wrong.

 

Yes, the Aiel believed that they had failed the Aes Sedai, and that the Aes Sedai would punish them.

 

Then they actually MET some Aes Sedai, and were incredulous at what they found.

 

And they are specifically incredulous about things they see as elementary that the Aes Sedai don't know. Unweaving a weave, for example. And they literally laugh at the Aes Sedai conceit that Aes Sedai weaves are somehow "better." See for example Melanie and Avi's interaction after Avi douses the burning manor.

 

The text simply does not support your contention that the Aes Sedai are somehow "Super Channelers" that others cannot hop to match.. Hopefire's point is well taken. The Aes Sedai represent a small minority of light-side channelers, and have been coasting on their reputation. They're a paper tiger.

[Suttree]

Not the Aiel. It has been repeatedly pointed out in the novels that the Aes Sedai's belief in the superiority of their weavings is risible.

 

You must have been reading a different series then, because the Aiel were convinced that they had failed the Aes Sedai, and that the Aes Sedai would one day punish them. Their Wise Ones purposely avoided the Aes Sedai.

 

The Aiel Wise Ones also used every opportunity they could to squeeze knowledge out of Rand's AS. This is pretty much proof that the AS knew a lot more about the power that the WO didn't than vice versa.

 

What the book *did* show was the failure of AS arrogance, in that they believed that they were superior IN EVERY WAY, and that anyone not AS (i.e. Wilder) were just "children". That certainly does not invalidate the fact that the White Tower is the most powerful gathering of channelers in the world.

 

You can snark all you want, you're still wrong.

 

Yes, the Aiel believed that they had failed the Aes Sedai, and that the Aes Sedai would punish them.

 

Then they actually MET some Aes Sedai, and were incredulous at what they found.

 

And they are specifically incredulous about things they see as elementary that the Aes Sedai don't know. Unweaving a weave, for example. And they literally laugh at the Aes Sedai conceit that Aes Sedai weaves are somehow "better." See for example Melanie and Avi's interaction after Avi douses the burning manor.

 

The text simply does not support your contention that the Aes Sedai are somehow "Super Channelers" that others cannot hop to match.. Hopefire's point is well taken. The Aes Sedai represent a small minority of light-side channelers, and have been coasting on their reputation. They're a paper tiger.

 

Do you think it's far to say that in terms of general knowledge and the most widespread range of different weaves the AS are out in front? That doesn't mean they are superior, just that most other groups are fairly specialized.

[mbuehner]

Do you think it's far to say that in terms of general knowledge and the most widespread range of different weaves the AS are out in front? That doesn't mean they are superior, just that most other groups are fairly specialized.

 

I think this is the point. AS spend their lives training with the OP and have the largest collection of knowledge passed down from the AoL- their education and testing is brutal and military in its efficiency, its small wonder they have the widest and deepest skill and knowledge. The other groups hide their ability aside from specific times and purposes. They may be very, very good with those purposes, but they know little else. Neither the Wise Ones nor the Windfinders knew how to link, or to cut off another channeler- i dont even know that they could Heal the AS way.

 

I think about the array of channeling Moraine showcased in EotW- she Healed, she threw fireballs, she created illusions, she created wards, she made an earthquake and a wall of fire, she sent a decoy of their tracks, she put a trace on the boys, she masked their exhaustion, etc. No windfinder or wise one could come close to that array of skills, they just dont have the knowledge. Yes, they know a few things the AS dont, but the AS know many, many more things they do not, and each AS has practiced with them for decades and even centuries.

[solarz]

You can snark all you want, you're still wrong.

 

Yes, the Aiel believed that they had failed the Aes Sedai, and that the Aes Sedai would punish them.

 

Then they actually MET some Aes Sedai, and were incredulous at what they found.

 

And they are specifically incredulous about things they see as elementary that the Aes Sedai don't know. Unweaving a weave, for example. And they literally laugh at the Aes Sedai conceit that Aes Sedai weaves are somehow "better." See for example Melanie and Avi's interaction after Avi douses the burning manor.

 

The text simply does not support your contention that the Aes Sedai are somehow "Super Channelers" that others cannot hop to match.. Hopefire's point is well taken. The Aes Sedai represent a small minority of light-side channelers, and have been coasting on their reputation. They're a paper tiger.

 

The Aiel Wise Ones are the only group that don't hide from the White Tower, and even they knew a lot less about the power than the AS.

 

yes, the WO knew some things that AS didn't. Just as the Kin or the Windfinders did. However, it was still the WO who wanted to learn from the AS, and did so almost 24/7. Same thing for the Windfinders when they made that deal. This shows that on the whole, the AS knew a lot more than these other groups of channelers.

 

The Aiel WO became contemptuous of the AS because of they considered the AS to be without honor, NOT because of their lack of knowledge in the OP. Aiel respect ji'e'toh, not power.

[Hopefire]

Do you think it's far to say that in terms of general knowledge and the most widespread range of different weaves the AS are out in front? That doesn't mean they are superior, just that most other groups are fairly specialized.

 

I think this is the point. AS spend their lives training with the OP and have the largest collection of knowledge passed down from the AoL- their education and testing is brutal and military in its efficiency, its small wonder they have the widest and deepest skill and knowledge. The other groups hide their ability aside from specific times and purposes. They may be very, very good with those purposes, but they know little else. Neither the Wise Ones nor the Windfinders knew how to link, or to cut off another channeler- i dont even know that they could Heal the AS way.

 

I think about the array of channeling Moraine showcased in EotW- she Healed, she threw fireballs, she created illusions, she created wards, she made an earthquake and a wall of fire, she sent a decoy of their tracks, she put a trace on the boys, she masked their exhaustion, etc. No windfinder or wise one could come close to that array of skills, they just dont have the knowledge. Yes, they know a few things the AS dont, but the AS know many, many more things they do not, and each AS has practiced with them for decades and even centuries.

 

Firstly, the only major weave that the Aes Sedai seem to have been aware of that the Wise Ones were not seems to have been healing and shielding. Otherwise, as Egwene put it sometime in TSR or TFOH, the Wise Ones just do things differently. Sometimes more effectively, sometimes less, but generally speaking the Wise Ones have the same toolkit as the Aes Sedai - with the exception that they also have things like unraveling weaves and that Dreaming wasn't a lost talent.

 

Secondly, there's no evidence that the Aes Sedai have a boatload of weaves that the Aiel don't. There's indirect evidence that it's extremely unlikely that Aes Sedai do, because Sisters are extremely jealous of "their" weaves. There are weaves known only to certain Ajah, there are weaves known only to specific sisters, etc. New Spring touches on that, so does either LOC or TFOH, where the girls note that some of their discoveries are effectively just making public weaves that some sisters used privately already, but hadn't wanted to teach anyone. Contrast that with the Aiel, where the Wise Ones are shown to have a much more friendly and open relationship; even Wise Ones of clans in blood feud could meet up for tea. While there's no direct evidence of weave sharing, the Aiel's general practice with regards to Wise Ones indicates that it's more likely than in the White Tower.

 

Thirdly, "each AS has practiced with them for decades and even centuries." I apologize, I'm not really sure how to respond to this without being at least somewhat snarky, but you are aware of what the Oath Rod does to life spans, and that the Aes Sedai are the only major group of channelers that are using it? What this means is that Cadsuane is a very old Aes Sedai, around the three century mark. There are women in the other groups who can channel, who aren't nearly so strong, who look significantly younger and who are significantly older. Some of the older Wise Ones and Windfinders may very well be over six hundred years old, twice the age of the oldest Aes Sedai alive.

 

Finally, any weaves that were common knowledge among the Aes Sedai would have passed into Aiel knowledge following LOC at the latest, learned from the Aes Sedai apprentices.

[Suttree]

Do you think it's far to say that in terms of general knowledge and the most widespread range of different weaves the AS are out in front? That doesn't mean they are superior, just that most other groups are fairly specialized.

 

I think this is the point. AS spend their lives training with the OP and have the largest collection of knowledge passed down from the AoL- their education and testing is brutal and military in its efficiency, its small wonder they have the widest and deepest skill and knowledge. The other groups hide their ability aside from specific times and purposes. They may be very, very good with those purposes, but they know little else. Neither the Wise Ones nor the Windfinders knew how to link, or to cut off another channeler- i dont even know that they could Heal the AS way.

 

I think about the array of channeling Moraine showcased in EotW- she Healed, she threw fireballs, she created illusions, she created wards, she made an earthquake and a wall of fire, she sent a decoy of their tracks, she put a trace on the boys, she masked their exhaustion, etc. No windfinder or wise one could come close to that array of skills, they just dont have the knowledge. Yes, they know a few things the AS dont, but the AS know many, many more things they do not, and each AS has practiced with them for decades and even centuries.

 

Firstly, the only major weave that the Aes Sedai seem to have been aware of that the Wise Ones were not seems to have been healing and shielding. Otherwise, as Egwene put it sometime in TSR or TFOH, the Wise Ones just do things differently. Sometimes more effectively, sometimes less, but generally speaking the Wise Ones have the same toolkit as the Aes Sedai - with the exception that they also have things like unraveling weaves and that Dreaming wasn't a lost talent.

 

Secondly, there's no evidence that the Aes Sedai have a boatload of weaves that the Aiel don't. There's indirect evidence that it's extremely unlikely that Aes Sedai do, because Sisters are extremely jealous of "their" weaves. There are weaves known only to certain Ajah, there are weaves known only to specific sisters, etc. New Spring touches on that, so does either LOC or TFOH, where the girls note that some of their discoveries are effectively just making public weaves that some sisters used privately already, but hadn't wanted to teach anyone. Contrast that with the Aiel, where the Wise Ones are shown to have a much more friendly and open relationship; even Wise Ones of clans in blood feud could meet up for tea. While there's no direct evidence of weave sharing, the Aiel's general practice with regards to Wise Ones indicates that it's more likely than in the White Tower.

 

Thirdly, "each AS has practiced with them for decades and even centuries." I apologize, I'm not really sure how to respond to this without being at least somewhat snarky, but you are aware of what the Oath Rod does to life spans, and that the Aes Sedai are the only major group of channelers that are using it? What this means is that Cadsuane is a very old Aes Sedai, around the three century mark. There are women in the other groups who can channel, who aren't nearly so strong, who look significantly younger and who are significantly older. Some of the older Wise Ones and Windfinders may very well be over six hundred years old, twice the age of the oldest Aes Sedai alive.

 

Finally, any weaves that were common knowledge among the Aes Sedai would have passed into Aiel knowledge following LOC at the latest, learned from the Aes Sedai apprentices.

 

I would think though because of the items of power and library in Tar Valon the AS knowledge would be superior over all. Whether they have been good stewards of that knowledge/ maximized it is a different argument entirely.

[Sharaman]

The Windfinder, Aiel and AS conference in TAR (ToM) has a direct admission from Amys that the AS know more about OP than the Aiel.

[Kahsm]

Isn't there a scene where it's somehow pointed out that the WO's don't need to use gestures to cast weaves, where Aes Sedai do. I believe the example given is the act of throwing a fire ball. It's likely when Egwene was being taught. So to counter Amy's quote about KNOWLEDGE of the OP, I believe in this scene the WO's make fun of the Aes Sedai for being inferior at the act of channeling (unravelling also demonstrates this).

 

Some might suggest this is just another of the "specialties" that WO's have, but it would be a HUGE one. I tend to feel that while Aes Sedai study a lot, and collect knowledge and things where they can, WO's practice actual channeling more and are technically better, which might serve them best if it came to OP blows.

[LemonPastie]

In PoD when the windfinders/kin/aes sedai are running away from the farm after using the Bowl, it mentions that more fireballs came from the non-aes sedai because they weren't throwing them, just shooting them from the hip, so to speak

[Hopefire]

The Windfinder, Aiel and AS conference in TAR (ToM) has a direct admission from Amys that the AS know more about OP than the Aiel.

 

The closest I can find to a statement along those lines is this:

 

"Amys, would you agree that the Aes Sedai have knowledge of weaves that the Wise Ones do not?"

 

"It would be foolish not to admit Aes Sedai expertise in these areas," Amys said carefully. "They spend much time practicing their weaves. But there are things we know that they do not."

 

I don't read that much differently than I would say, Nadal and Federer talking about each other's prowess. Those two have an enormous level respect for each other, and for one of them to acknowledge the skill of the other guy doesn't mean that he feels that he's capable of anything less himself, just that their strengths on the tennis court are in different areas. Having said that, I don't think that Amys and the Wise Ones have the respect for Aes Sedai that Nadal and Federer have for each other.

[lenardo]

We have 5 groups of channellers some with a specialization. Some of which is not channeling perse.

 

Aes Sedai- Generalists- jack of all trades, knowledge of all, master of .....linking, some types of healing

 

Windfinders= specialize in weather and air channeling

 

The Kin- again generalists- focused mostly on healing though there are a few people with shielding specialization (see the woman blocking nynaeve) the kin's Best healer is as good as or better than nynaeve- who is the best AS healer/better than all AS healers previously

 

Damane/Sul'dam - War Weaves. the Seanchan Damane/Sul'dam are specialized in war weaves/destruction...better than Green Ajah/AS.- do not know healing (for the most part) CANNOT link per the adam....cannot yet travel...

 

Wise Women - Excell in strength of character, leadership, Dreamweavers (none of the other groups have dreamweavers-ok Eqwene now) women Specific weaves, the adoption weave, pregnancy weave etc. wise ones at the beginning of the series did not know to link, did not know to heal, did not know travelling, they now do know all that.

 

Do Aes Sedai have weaves the others do not know, hell yes, and the others have knowledge that AS do not have, and that will change.

 

 

as what has been Said

 

Rand has access to more wise ones that are Aiel than the White tower has members.

[solarz]

Aiel Wise Ones avoid Aes Sedai, but do not hide from them.

 

Windfinders and the Kin both actively try to hid from Aes Sedai. I see a lot of posters trying to use WO to "prove" that AS aren't that much more powerful, but totally ignore those other two groups. Aside from the Seanchan, the WO are probably the most powerful group of channelers after the AS.

 

Even then, WOs *WERE* much less knowledgeable than AS. Anything after they gain their own captive AS teachers just shows the change in the balance of power in Randland, and is thus not valid for describing the pre-Rand situation of the world.

 

Remember that Aiel WOs *do not* take part in battle. As such, much of their knowledge of weaves is focused on social and ritualistic roles. In LOC, Shaido WOs, despite outnumbering the AS they surrounded, and having the support of an entire army, still could not overcome the AS defenses before Perrin and Co caught up. IIRC, the Shaido WO were actually learning the AS weaves as they sieged them.

 

The position of the White Tower as *THE* channeling organization is uncontested prior to the Dragon Reborn.

[randsc]

The position of the White Tower as *THE* channeling organization is uncontested prior to the Dragon Reborn.

 

And the position of the horse as *THE* preferred form of transport is uncontested prior to the invention of the automobile. So what? That doesn't give us any insight into who is most likely to win the Monaco Grand Prix.

 

This entire discussion has been about the Channelers available to Rand as oppossed to those available to Egwene. Now, not in the past.

[solarz]

The position of the White Tower as *THE* channeling organization is uncontested prior to the Dragon Reborn.

 

And the position of the horse as *THE* preferred form of transport is uncontested prior to the invention of the automobile. So what? That doesn't give us any insight into who is most likely to win the Monaco Grand Prix.

 

This entire discussion has been about the Channelers available to Rand as oppossed to those available to Egwene. Now, not in the past.

 

If you're talking about a confrontation between Rand and Egwene, it's only the loyal Ashaman and Rand himself that matters. Aiel WOs aren't going to fight against Egwene, nor vice versa. Of course, neither is Rand unless he's pushed to a corner.

 

As for skill, despite the lessons the WO have been getting, they have participated in very few battles compared to the AS. How many WOs defended Rand during his cleansing of Saidin? This shows that when push comes to shove, Rand still relies on the knowledge and skill of the AS over any other group aside from his Ashaman.

[MasterAblar]

The position of the White Tower as *THE* channeling organization is uncontested prior to the Dragon Reborn.

 

And the position of the horse as *THE* preferred form of transport is uncontested prior to the invention of the automobile. So what? That doesn't give us any insight into who is most likely to win the Monaco Grand Prix.

 

This entire discussion has been about the Channelers available to Rand as oppossed to those available to Egwene. Now, not in the past.

 

On horse or automobile, Fernando Alonso will win Monaco and that's that. Or at least he will next year.