Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Hint from ToM to Seanchan damane resolution - theory


Recommended Posts

ToM Ch57 'A Rabbit for Supper':

 

page 827: She looked at Mat. "You should not spurn the warder bond so easily, Mat. The blessings it provides will be of great use to men in these days."

 

Mat pulled his hat back on. "That may be true, but you'll never see me bloody trapped by one. No offense, Moiraine. I like you well enough. But to be bondedto a woman? Isn't going to happen to Matrim Cauthon.

 

"Is that so?" Thom asked, amused. "Didn't we determine that your Tuon would be capable of channeling, should she decide to learn?"

 

Mat froze. Bloody ashes. Thom was right. But that would make her marath'damane. She would not do such a thing. He did not have to worry.

 

Did he?

 

coupled with the insights from Fortuona in ToM Ch47 A Teaching Chamber

 

page 703: So far as she knew since his raising, Beslan hadn't made any plans to have her assassinated. Remarkable. Any Seanchan would have immediately begun scheming. Some would have tried an assassination; others would have decided to make only plans, but remain supportive. But all would have considered killing her.

Many on this side of the ocean thought differently. She'd never have believed it, if not for her time with Matrim. That was obviously one reason why Fortuona had been required to go with him. She just wished she'd interpreted the omens earlier.

 

page 705: Would Matrim be equally loyal? What would it be like to have a Prince of the Ravens whom she did not have to plot against? It seemed almost a fantasy, the type of tale told to common children to make them dream of an impossible marriage.

 

 

Sorry for the heavy quoting from the text, but I have just finished a reread of ToM and think that the two parts reveal an event that is certain to happen. Take Mat's words, everytime he says he will never do something obviously it happens so i think we can take it as read that he will be bonded to Tuon, it then comes down to a matter of when. During AMOL or after the fact, perhaps this is something foreshadowed for the outriggers. I take it from the text though that this is a defacto event to come.

 

However due to the absolute groundshift we are seeing in Tuons philosophy and thought process I have a sneaky suspicion that Mat will insist on being bonded to prove his loyalty to her and as proof absolute for Tuon that she can channel. This will be constructed in some manner as a way to solve the damane issue. We see Tuon saying that she hadn't read the omens properly previously when interacting with Mat. Forgetting his luck he is Taveren and we have seen major tavereness at work from Rand previously and very heavily from Perrin in ToM I think its Mat's turn for a world shifting taverneness with an individuals choices.

 

So in short I think Tuon bonds Mat at his request to prove she can channel, enforce his loyalty and thereby removing her fear of Damane. Could be off base, but I see it as something that would easily fit into AMoL timewise and there is foreshadowing from ToM. what do you think? Feasible or not?

Edited by donk
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 61
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

There has always been some foreshadowing of Mat being bonded, all the way back to TSR if I recall correctly. And indeed, the foreshadowing was upped a notch in TOM when Mat thought about it in relation to Tuon. We discussed this some at JordanCon, but I think it was at the smoking tables rather than at a panel, so unfortunately there will be no video. The only way I can see her first channeling act to be the bonding is if it happens during sex. Otherwise, it's more likely to be Tuon saving Mat's life or some such. But I want to see a scene where Tuon asks Elaida to show her the weave. :biggrin:

Link to post
Share on other sites

There has always been some foreshadowing of Mat being bonded, all the way back to TSR if I recall correctly. And indeed, the foreshadowing was upped a notch in TOM when Mat thought about it in relation to Tuon. We discussed this some at JordanCon, but I think it was at the smoking tables rather than at a panel, so unfortunately there will be no video. The only way I can see her first channeling act to be the bonding is if it happens during sex. Otherwise, it's more likely to be Tuon saving Mat's life or some such. But I want to see a scene where Tuon asks Elaida to show her the weave. :biggrin:

 

Yes, i see what you mean. I am thinking that it will come about because Mat will say you must bond me to trust me, and it will be related to the Horn of Valere (crazy thought is Hawkwing ordering her to do so!!). Story wise I can also see this happening at the White Tower during the planned attack by the Seanchan. If Egwene and her army are marching off to the last battle there will be few AS in the tower and the invasion force will quickly take the tower and Tuon would travel there to celebrate/ arrive as the conquering empress just about the time Mat is there looking to collect the Horn. Oh I don't know this theorising is so messy:)

Link to post
Share on other sites

...and anyone that subscribes to the "Mat is Aemon reborn" theory has been all over Mat being bonded ever since it was learned that Tuon trained damane and by default could channel.

Edited by Finnssss
Link to post
Share on other sites

I dunno, Mat being bonded is a little more complicated than Tuon coming to grips with her being able to channel. She'd have to learn the weave. And it seems to be a complicated weave...

 

I'm betting it will get resolved when she herself gets an a'dam put on her. I could see Egwene doing it (just because she's the Main Female Protagonist), maybe, or Nynaeve (just because she's seen her in the flesh).

 

However it gets resolved, it's bound to be messy. I can't see a thousand years of thinking being reversed peacefully. Tuon might have to step down as Empress O_O

Edited by johntocaelpiano
Link to post
Share on other sites

i guess i should know this, but can tuon bond mat with the aide of a damane who knows how? or could someone else bond him to save his life and pass the bond to tuon?

 

Don't see why not. Min was bonded to Rand by Elayne.

Link to post
Share on other sites

be awesome though if he indeed end up being bonded.

 

but the other thing in ToM is when Mat is sending the suldam to the WT with Joline and Teslin. not really foreshadowing but showing that Mat is crucial to this damane issue being solved.

 

and also i think Setalle Anan (if she is able to be healed) is also crucial. even not healed, if she confess to Tuon, she was a former Aes Sedai, Tuon might start looking at Aes Sedai differently.

Link to post
Share on other sites

be awesome though if he indeed end up being bonded.

 

but the other thing in ToM is when Mat is sending the suldam to the WT with Joline and Teslin. not really foreshadowing but showing that Mat is crucial to this damane issue being solved.

 

and also i think Setalle Anan (if she is able to be healed) is also crucial. even not healed, if she confess to Tuon, she was a former Aes Sedai, Tuon might start looking at Aes Sedai differently.

 

Excellent point, I forgot about Setalle, it would need her to be healed I feel for it to have merit to the plot as a prompt for Tuon to drop her fears. I think without doubt Matt, Joline, Teslin and the former Seanchan Suldam at the tower will be critical to the acceptance of channelling by Tuon, I just think the invasion of the white tower and the recovery of the horn of valere will be the plot mechanism.

 

 

The big lynchpin to a further change in the attitude of Tuon as I see it now is that with travelling the Seanchan can return home. Although RJ has said there will not be any 'on screen' time in the Seanchan empire, there is nothing to stop reports coming through to Fortuona from her underlings of the carnage that we are lead to believe has been wrought there. I mean this in so much as if all of the high blood have been exterminated which i think is the case then she has no peers and no-one to answer to. We already have seen that Beslan is the highest ranking Seanchan subject on 'this side of the ocean' (not the exact quote do not have my book to hand but it is mentioned in the same area as my first quotes from Tuon in the op when she references him speaking to her and reflects he alone could)this leads me to believe that there will be some link up with the destruction of society in Seanchan which will remove any significant barriers from 'society' for Tuon's thinking to change.

 

Again theorising is so messy!

Edited by donk
Link to post
Share on other sites

I like it! Ever since ToM and the infamous Court of the Sun, i cannot stand the thought of the Seanchan remaining as they are.

 

It HAS to happen, the abolising of damane. It has been foreshadowed since tGH when the girls realized that sul'dam could channel. A good portion of the series has been about this. If it doesnt happen, or at lesat start to happen (like Seanchan accepting Channelers) I will feel cheated.

 

I think that Mat will definitely be a part of it, and that the bonding will happen. But I think that it will be mainly Tuon, Egwene and Egeanin.

 

Egwene's dream of a seanchan with a sword handing her the a'dam.

 

Egeanin always fit this to me. She is heavily involved in the whole thing, and is currently at the white tower.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's an easy thing to doubt, but I can totally see it happening.

 

Personally, I doubt that Tuon will go back home before the series ends, unless it's to get the Crystal Throne. I think that the mention of the upheaval there is planting a seed for the outriggers more than anything else - RJ said Mat and Tuon would be a big focus 5-10 years after the Last Battle, and I think many of us assumed that would have to do with retaking the Seanchan continent.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I personally think that Fortuna will never channel her self.(at least on purpose.) But I do belive that the the abolition of Damane will happen for possibly all of the reasons mentioned in the posts above but also for the simple fact of strategy. Whats better that 1000 trained killing machines? 3000. Every single Suldam can be trained almost effortlessly to channel. I belive that there will be a few devastating losses at the begining of the last battle and it will force Fortuna (meh, she'll always be Tuon to me) to uze her suldam in this fashion. And since there are always more suldam than damane it will greatly increase her channeler numbers. She will of course need the help of the tower to do so. The Suldam cannot train themselves after all.

 

I belive that this part of will occur through some deal between Tuon and Egwene with the option for release of every of damane that wants it as well as all of the captive Aes sedai.

Edited by dmanmiller34
Link to post
Share on other sites

Considering how Mat feels about power and AS it would be a full circle if he is bonded. I always thought that there was a very strong foreshadowing of it in book 6 or 7 when he leaves to take charge in Tear. I think it was Tolmanes (sp) asked if he ever thought how it would be to be a warder while they travel on the road (right before the dead tinkers). Anyways, I def think he will get bonded and I think that there is more to Tuon and channeling (sound crazy, but I think she can channel; that's another conversation though).

 

On another note - now that Mat has one eye and will most likely eventually shave his head, it would be pretty cool look for him, IMO. I can totally c that if RJ did have time to write sequel about Mat and Tuon I can c Mat being well known in the whole empire on sight (the hat, spear, and one eye...def no way for him to hide who he is, oh and how he would hate that biggrin.gif).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't something about Tuon already being different from the other Sul'dam in that she see or do the weaves herself while linked to a dammane? Somethin no other sul'dam can do?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, Tuon is mostly special because she does the weaving directly through the link. I get the feeling that even among skilled sul'dam, this ability is rare. It's probably something most der'sul'dam can do, though. We've never seen anyone else do it, but we don't get to see sul'dam in action much.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

In some ways Mat is already something like a "Universal Warder." Ever since he had the bond with the dagger broken in TV his life has been dominated saving or protecting women who can channel. He doesn't have any of the benefits of the bond, but he does seem to have all the responsibilities. If there is an AS in trouble, the Mat seems to find them. So far Mat has only been right about one thing in his life; the Pattern does have a sense of humor, and its best jokes involve Matrim Cauthon miserable.

 

In my mind, the little dialog between Mat, Moiraine, and Thom screamed "MAT IS GONNA GET BONDED!" I kind of feel sorry for Tuon/Fortuna; she doesn't know what she is about to step into with Mat.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see why the damane question is going to be resolved? Why should it? It's an integral part of the Seanchan culture and is doubtful to go away. Even Aviendha's future visions implied as much.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The freeing of the damane, if there is one, is also tied up in Aviendha's revelations at the columns in Rhuidean. You'll recall, in her visions of the future, the Raven Empire has damane. So necessarily, she must change something if there is ever to be a change here. The freeing of the damane, even a relaxation of these prejudices, starts there.

 

Don't ask me to explain how it all unfolds though. I don't think Merrilor is the place where that particular conflict ends.

 

Rand still has not bent knee to the Crystal Throne. He may not (Ishamael messed with their prophecies) or on the other hand, maybe Rand apologizes to Fortuona for his behavior in their first meeting. He has done a lot to atone for his crimes since Dragonmount. And to correct his mistakes.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There has always been some foreshadowing of Mat being bonded, all the way back to TSR if I recall correctly. And indeed, the foreshadowing was upped a notch in TOM when Mat thought about it in relation to Tuon. We discussed this some at JordanCon, but I think it was at the smoking tables rather than at a panel, so unfortunately there will be no video. The only way I can see her first channeling act to be the bonding is if it happens during sex. Otherwise, it's more likely to be Tuon saving Mat's life or some such. But I want to see a scene where Tuon asks Elaida to show her the weave. :biggrin:

 

Poor Matt. Anytime he's in denial over something it's just bound to happen. Seems to sum up his story arc succinctly.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Tuon broke through Rand's attempt to force her with his Tavereness and resisted him, while almost everyone else fell subject to it. She's quite a bit stronger to resist the forcing of Taveren than the general population. While Rand has become a multitude stronger than he was when he spoke to her, Mat didn't. So I doubt he'll be Taverenforcing her to do anything.

 

Considering that we're only a little over 2 years In Story after the exit of the Two Towers in the first book, I highly doubt that in the span of the last book (which will cover, what? perhaps two, three months? if that?) Tuon will make a full 180 on her superstitions, millenia bread convictions and now empirial duty and go 'oh well, we've been wrong about damane, let's free them'. If anything, the last book shows she's become more and more fanatic compared to her way of thinking as the Daughter of the Nine Moons. She's currently organising a full-out attack on the White Tower (one which will make the previous one look like a kid's skirmish, from teh sound of it), using all her forces this time instead of a small contingent. Unless something major is happening to defend the WT, this will decimate the WT to almost non-existance. With major I mean the combination of all three Taveren, the Aes Sedai, the Aiel, the Ashaman and the use of the Horn of Valere again.

 

Then, almost immediately after, the LB will begin (well, it's already begun, but I mean the major confrontation). I highly doubt that there will be any time for Fortuona to make those reflections, come to the conclusion that leashing damane is wrong, change the law and avoid being lynched by the other Seanchan for having lost her mind in the process.

 

As for getting a new view on damane or marath'damane because she likes a former channeler, that's a bit naive really. Seanchan have centuries of tradition of instantly and irrevocably turn their backs on even their own beloved children if it's found out that they can channel. I highly doubt the Empress will change her mind because she happened to like an Innkeeper woman she's known for a few months.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think the damane issue will be resolved before the last battle (if at all), there simple isn't time. It is also highly unlikely that the Seanchan attack on the WT would see Randland in an all out war with the Seanchan. If the Seanchan and the whole Randland forces fight over the destruction/protection of the WT, any chance of a truce between Rand and Tuon would be gone in my opinion. I think the Seanchan would go to the WT but the attack would not happen for one reason or another and then Tuon, Egwene and Rand would come to an agreement for a truce ( hopefully with Mat's help ).

 

I am curious if Mat would indeed be bonded by Tuon, I like the idea though I have no idea how that would come about. My one bold prediction is that Setalle Anan would NOT be healed but instead become Tuon's new Truthspeaker, Setalle would confess that she was an AS before and Tuon would reassess her views about marath'damane gradually.

 

sidenote:

I know for a fact that Tuon cannot be held by an A'dam since she has not been channeling long enough per Robert Jordan's answer to this question.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Poor Matt. Anytime he's in denial over something it's just bound to happen. Seems to sum up his story arc succinctly.

Yes, this is exactly why I am 100% certain he'll get bonded. There are just so many times he thought something like "Those Warders are fools for agreeing to be bonded, I would never do that" that it's inevitable to happen.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...