Lan's Warder Bond

[Guest CyborgDragon]

Hello all, long time lurker, first time poster, . This has been something that's been irking me for a while, and I've never seen any discussion on it.

 

What exactly happened with Lan's warder bond when Moiraine 'died?' Clearly it was passed to Merylle, and he is taken by the 'death rage,' yet Moiraine didn't die. You could say it happened when Moiraine and Lanfear passed through the doorway, but then why didn't this happen in The Shadow Rising, when she used the one in the Stone? She had already set up the bond so that it would pass to Myrelle by then. I don't see the doorway melting being the cause, either, as there is still two other links, at least, to the world of the 'finns.

 

Rather than filling this post with possibilities and ideas, I'd like to see this discussed.

[Luckers]

It strikes me as strange too, but I suppose the argument going is that the bond was snapped by the melting as the doorway, and that it was in the sense that the doorway provided one specific link between the realm of the Finns and Randland, and that the breaking of that link in the melting also broke the bond in the same moment.

 

It may just be that I strongly argued against this being likely for so many years due precisely to your argument, that given other connections to the Finn realm existed the bond should have survived under such circumstances, but yes I do find this an unsatisfying answer. Others don't seem to have a problem with it though. :)

 

My other problem is this--how on earth did Moiraine and Lanfear NOT get burned out. I mean two channelers fall through a ter'angreal which susbsequently self-destructs whilst channeling--after all the warnings about ter'angreal how did they not get burned out.

 

The above self-involved rant against RJ's metaphysics is now over, with appologies. I got tender pride on this one folks.

[MatrixM]

I assumed the Finn broke it as they saw the two channelers bursting in and fighting in their halls as a breach of the ancient agreement so it was cool to render them helpless and feed off of them.

Perhaps they simply did it for the lulz, i mean, they're supposed to be pretty selfish.

 

 

Also, burning out was always just a very likely possibility/popular theory amongst the Third Age's 'educated' aes sedai.

[Byzantine279]

Them not being burned out seems to just be a matter of luck, the odds likely should have burned them out, but the Finns may have prevented it in some way (after all, they wanted channelers to feed on), we do not know the full extent of their abilities.

 

Exactly why the bind snapped is... uncertain. it is entirely possible Moiraine figured out a way to make the bond snap as if she has died, just because other Aes Sedai don't know of a way doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Further it could have been caused by the way the two worlds were interacting at that point in time, which due to the breaking doorway would have been far different from what happened in the Stone.

[Luckers]

Yeah, don't take my above post too seriously. As I said, I've tender pride on this one--I was a very strong perponant of the burn out theory.

[Sharaman]

In pure plot terms, I've also wondered about your point Luckers.

After all, we know stilled women can be Healed - and it's not too much of stretch to assume burnt out women can, as well. (There's a chance Setalle would be, after all if it's required, given her relationship with Tuon).

If necessary, the Dark had Semirhage who was famously the best Healer of the AoL to tinker with Nyn's method and find a way of adapting it for healing burnt out cases.

So it would have been quite easy for Lanfear/ Moiraine to be brought back into the narrative burnt out & healed, if required by the story. That would have "solved" the Lan bond snapping issue as well.

So why introduce all the complexity of the two not burning out, Finns feeding off the power, etc.?

Unless that Finn-ability somehow comes back again into the story.

But somehow I cannot see Finnland playing much of a part in AMoL.

[Mrjon3s]

Not really about what you guys are talking but its about Lans bond with Nyn. Say the both surive the final battle. Would Nyn be able to extend Lans life?

[Mr Ares]

Not really about what you guys are talking but its about Lans bond with Nyn. Say the both surive the final battle. Would Nyn be able to extend Lans life?

No. According to RJ, the Warder bond doesn't increase a Warder's lifespan, but it does help them maintain their vitality long into old age.

[MatrixM]

In pure plot terms, I've also wondered about your point Luckers.

After all, we know stilled women can be Healed - and it's not too much of stretch to assume burnt out women can, as well. (There's a chance Setalle would be, after all if it's required, given her relationship with Tuon).

If necessary, the Dark had Semirhage who was famously the best Healer of the AoL to tinker with Nyn's method and find a way of adapting it for healing burnt out cases.

So it would have been quite easy for Lanfear/ Moiraine to be brought back into the narrative burnt out & healed, if required by the story. That would have "solved" the Lan bond snapping issue as well.

So why introduce all the complexity of the two not burning out, Finns feeding off the power, etc.?

Unless that Finn-ability somehow comes back again into the story.

But somehow I cannot see Finnland playing much of a part in AMoL.

Perhaps to simply make Lanfear weaker.

And Moiraine being weaker whilst also being a living legend would help Egwene abolish the Aes Sedai's current hierarchical system.

[LemonPastie]

I don't have my books, but the theory that I've always had regarding this, and I have yet to see anyone disprove it is from Moiraine's POV as she goes into the Ter'Angreal, bear with me this is gonna be paraphrased

 

As she climbed onto the corner of the wagon, her small body barely making it move so Lanfear didn't notice her, she saw Lan out of the corner of her eye. He was knocked out cold. She firmly pushed him from her mind, she had to focus on Lanfear... and on it goes

 

Now I would like to draw your attention to the piece I added in italics. This is pretty close to what is written - she pushed him from her mind. Now removing a warder bond isn't a talent like Travelling, it is either a weave (she had prepared earlier) or it is a focus of the mind (like wrapping it up as per Elayne) - maybe she learned that she was going to do this through the rings - whatever. I am convinced that where she has pushed him from her mind isn't just a figure of speech that she is ignoring him to focus on other things, she is literally pushing her awareness of him (and thus the bond) from her mind.

 

As to the not burning out, by all accounts Elayne could have been burned out when she unravelled the gateway, but she wasn't, and Egwene when she had the TAR angreal resonance. I would call it luck.

[FarShainMael]

At the very least, that italicised comment gives the author a lot of wiggle room!

[Sharaman]

In pure plot terms, I've also wondered about your point Luckers.

After all, we know stilled women can be Healed - and it's not too much of stretch to assume burnt out women can, as well. (There's a chance Setalle would be, after all if it's required, given her relationship with Tuon).

If necessary, the Dark had Semirhage who was famously the best Healer of the AoL to tinker with Nyn's method and find a way of adapting it for healing burnt out cases.

So it would have been quite easy for Lanfear/ Moiraine to be brought back into the narrative burnt out & healed, if required by the story. That would have "solved" the Lan bond snapping issue as well.

So why introduce all the complexity of the two not burning out, Finns feeding off the power, etc.?

Unless that Finn-ability somehow comes back again into the story.

But somehow I cannot see Finnland playing much of a part in AMoL.

Perhaps to simply make Lanfear weaker.

And Moiraine being weaker whilst also being a living legend would help Egwene abolish the Aes Sedai's current hierarchical system.

Healed by a woman would have the same effect -- Suian/ Leane, etc.

So that can't be it.

[Mordaunt]

IIRC Moiraine was holding the Source but not channeling. That could affect her being not burnt out. I'd say the bond being passed on was triggered by the currently existing portals melting (Rhuidean and the Stone).

[Agitel]

I just hold that, since Moiraine new she was going to die she 'cut' the bond herself, somehow. She, for whatever reason, wanted everyone to think her dead. She could easily have written that she still lived to Rand, but instead she wanted everyone but Thom to know she was dead until Mat asked for the letter. If Lan didn't have his bond cut and passed they would have had reason to think she may have lived.

[MatrixM]

In pure plot terms, I've also wondered about your point Luckers.

After all, we know stilled women can be Healed - and it's not too much of stretch to assume burnt out women can, as well. (There's a chance Setalle would be, after all if it's required, given her relationship with Tuon).

If necessary, the Dark had Semirhage who was famously the best Healer of the AoL to tinker with Nyn's method and find a way of adapting it for healing burnt out cases.

So it would have been quite easy for Lanfear/ Moiraine to be brought back into the narrative burnt out & healed, if required by the story. That would have "solved" the Lan bond snapping issue as well.

So why introduce all the complexity of the two not burning out, Finns feeding off the power, etc.?

Unless that Finn-ability somehow comes back again into the story.

But somehow I cannot see Finnland playing much of a part in AMoL.

Perhaps to simply make Lanfear weaker.

And Moiraine being weaker whilst also being a living legend would help Egwene abolish the Aes Sedai's current hierarchical system.

Healed by a woman would have the same effect -- Suian/ Leane, etc.

So that can't be it.

 

I'm quite sure that burning out and being severed cut one off from the source in different ways. Didn't Robert Jordan say this somewhere?

[Solarian]

I'm quite sure that burning out and being severed cut one off from the source in different ways. Didn't Robert Jordan say this somewhere?

 

I believe the difference is that severing blocks the Source whereas burning out actually removes the ability to channel.

[LemonPastie]

Severing is cutting the link (pipe) between you and the Source, Burning out melts the pipe, and your connector, infact your whole channeling plumbing system

[Mr Ares]

Leaving aside the analogies, stilling (for women) and gentling (for men) render one unable to channel, but still capable of sensing the Source - they can't touch it or do anything with it, but they know it's there. Burning out leaves one unable to even do that. Severing is the AoL term, and so far as we know the only one. Stillingis generally done as a punishment - it is intentional - whereas burning out is generally accidental, however AS are not necessarily always precise in their use of the terms. One could be said to be stilled if burnt out, or vice versa. Whether burn out can be Healed is unknown.

[Phariah]

i agree Luckers with your thinking. i just recently had some differing thoughts on it though.

 

what if it was because they were not actively connected to the gateway when it melted. you don't need to channel to use it just walk through it. so neither one was linked with it to be burned out like the couple examples we hear about AS messing w/ ter'angreal being burned out. they had to actively use their channelling to use the object that caused the burning out.

 

as for Moraine's link being severed. what if she knew Lan would drive himself nutz looking for her, either dreamwalkers/ tear doorway/ or the aiel wise one ter'angreal. so one request was for the bond to be severed.so he could still be of use to the TR people and save him. if she was just pushing him from her mind it is basically her releasing him not severing the bond so it wouldn't go to whats her name.

 

as far as we know it was just the rhuidean doorway that melted nothing about the tear doorway.

[Entretamis]

in one of the books it is explained how the warderbond settles in the person. I think Elayne was comparining it with the first sister wave, she said something along the lines that it is similar but it goes deeper.

 

My theory on this is that the bond settles on your ability to channel, souonds kind of confusing, so when the Finns drained Moirain once they reached the part where the bond was residing, the bond snapped.

 

This theory can only work if time is different in both realms, basically time needs to pass at a much faster rate in Finnland than in Randland. I dont remember anywhere in the books where they prove or this prove the time passage comparison.

[spoke]

She was with the finns, one of her requests was to sever the bond with Lan. Another was to keep the angreal. The third is unknown.

[LemonPastie]

Just had another thought (a lot less likely but I like the idea). What if instead of being burned out when the gals fell through the door, the side effect was Saidar got ripped from them really hard? So hard that Lan's bond got ripped from Moiraine too

[lenardo]

my leaning is more like spoke's reason. it was one of her requests. she did not pass on the bond normally, because that does not cause the "death rage" or whatever you want to call the severing effect on warders. so unless she Delibrately (and it is not mentioned that she did this ) severs her own link - while fighting lanfear- it is my opinion that it was one of her requests...

 

"i want my link to lan severed - without my having to die to sever it"(or something like that because the easiest way TO sever would have been to kill Moraine.

[Mongoose]

The only request she mentions is the Angreal I believe.

I too am of the opinion that the bond is snapped by there not being an exit from the Finn's realm with the melting of the doorframe.

Her and Lanfear's not burning out reminds of of when Nynaeve channelled during the Accepted test, or Egwene channelling outside the designated spots on the Aes Sedai test; they said they shouldn't have been able to, and both times (I belive, in Nynaeve's case at least) they caused feedback which effcted the channelers operating the tests, but neither actually burned out.

 

I think of it like how some people who get struck by lightning die due to their hearts and lungs seizing up, and some get struck and survive.

 

Also note than Lan does go into the death rage, at least partially. Nynaeve notes when she sees him again ater the bond was severed that he had a much darker cast to his eyes, and the dedly air that all Warders but especially Lan possessed seemed to have been magnified

[negativejuan]

Also note than Lan does go into the death rage, at least partially. Nynaeve notes when she sees him again ater the bond was severed that he had a much darker cast to his eyes, and the dedly air that all Warders but especially Lan possessed seemed to have been magnified

 

Agreed. I've always thought Lan got the 'madness' though not to a greater degree.

 

I've asked this here before but I like to believe that the bond between Moiraine and Lan was severed as if she'd died. The only thing that kept Lan from snapping fully was that Moiraine had arranged for their bond to be passed upon her death to the other sister (can't remember which).

 

I presume Moiraine did that once she knew what her fate was. I am curious as to why the sisters don't use this tool more often. They could have the bonds switch to another sister when the right conditions arise to prevent losing some good soldiers.

 

I do believe the bond was severed as in a 'death' and I believe that only his bond passing on prevented him going into a rage. It was nice of Moiraine to arrange for the eventual passing to Nynaeve, it probably would have been awful for her to try to control a warder that had death rage in him...

 

I can't decide if I make sense.