Egwene ugh

[SuperFade]

So she has grown too fast, too powerful in a short space of time eh? Would you prefer it then if her arc stretched 5 books of growing instead of 2 then?

 

At the very least, the time not spent on describing dressses and women sniffing so hard they tear up the earth beneath their nostrils would raise the possibility of some much needed introspection and character development.

[Zhipp]

So she has grown too fast, too powerful in a short space of time eh? Would you prefer it then if her arc stretched 5 books of growing instead of 2 then?

 

5 books of consistent character development? It would be like a dream come true.

[Terez]

I think Egwene was developed pretty consistently. The main thing that carried her toward being a good leader was her time spent with the Aiel - it taught her to persevere.

 

It was not the same thing at all, of course. She gritted her teeth and did as she was told because that was the only way to learn dreamwalking, and she wanted to learn, to learn everything, more than anything else she could imagine. To even think that she could live by this foolish ji'e'toh was simply silly. She did what she had to do, and only when and because she had to.

 

They were coming back to where they had begun. As her foot hit the spot, Egwene said, "That's one," and ran on through the darkness with no one to see but Aviendha, no one to say whether she went back to her tent right then. Aviendha would not have told, but it never occurred to Egwene to stop short of the fifty.

[capuga]

Look, I never said she did that for the good reasons. I only claimed I understand what made her do it. I also claimed that what she did was right, nevertheless. Compared to Egwene (as far as Egwene knew at least, and she wasn't far from the truth), Nynaeve wasn't much more than a little child playing with fire.

 

Yes there must have been better ways to show her, but probably not faster. Unfortunately for Nynaeve, she was at the wrong place at the wrong time.b She had to be there just when Egwene was about to face her down AND in that mood. Again, she wasn't being fair (far from that) and wasn't being nice, but we get a lot of PoV's from her and she does learn from it/reflect on it and shows that she knows that. What more do you expect?

I expect her not to physically abuse her fiends to cover up her lies. Is that too much to ask?

 

Egwene knew or at least had good reasons to suspect summoning the brutes won't make Nynaeve more careful in TAR. After all, Amys's similar lessons didn't stop Egwene from risking a visit alone almost every night, and Nynaeve is even more stubborn and reluctant to follow orders or warnings. It's mentioned later that Nynaeve was visiting TAR every night (except those once a week occasions when she had to meet Egwene) after her "lesson" until Birgitte was ripped out of TAR, which finally taught Nynaeve the danger of the Dreamworld. Nynaeve didn't hesitate to eavesdrop on the Forsaken on that same night before Moghedien appeared. So if anything, Egwene's lesson made Nynaeve more reckless.

 

Let me try putting this another way:

 

You do not get credit for unintended positive side effects of your negative actions. If you broke into someone's house because you wanted to steal their big screen TV (Egwene entering TAR when she wasn't supposed to because she wanted to learn) and then murder the homeowner because they happen to be home and will call the cops on you (scaring Nynaeve to keep her from telling the Wise Ones) you are not a hero because it turns out that the homeowner was actually a child molester (Nynaeve learning a lesson about the dangers of TAR). What you are is a murderer who just luckily rid the world of a bad person. You did not intend to save any kids, this was just a fortunate side effect of your negative actions and you do not get credit for this. Just like Egwene doesn't get credit for giving Nynaeve a lesson (which we don't even see that she really needs at that point).

[Agitel]

Look, I never said she did that for the good reasons. I only claimed I understand what made her do it. I also claimed that what she did was right, nevertheless. Compared to Egwene (as far as Egwene knew at least, and she wasn't far from the truth), Nynaeve wasn't much more than a little child playing with fire.

 

Yes there must have been better ways to show her, but probably not faster. Unfortunately for Nynaeve, she was at the wrong place at the wrong time.b She had to be there just when Egwene was about to face her down AND in that mood. Again, she wasn't being fair (far from that) and wasn't being nice, but we get a lot of PoV's from her and she does learn from it/reflect on it and shows that she knows that. What more do you expect?

I expect her not to physically abuse her fiends to cover up her lies. Is that too much to ask?

 

Egwene knew or at least had good reasons to suspect summoning the brutes won't make Nynaeve more careful in TAR. After all, Amys's similar lessons didn't stop Egwene from risking a visit alone almost every night, and Nynaeve is even more stubborn and reluctant to follow orders or warnings. It's mentioned later that Nynaeve was visiting TAR every night (except those once a week occasions when she had to meet Egwene) after her "lesson" until Birgitte was ripped out of TAR, which finally taught Nynaeve the danger of the Dreamworld. Nynaeve didn't hesitate to eavesdrop on the Forsaken on that same night before Moghedien appeared. So if anything, Egwene's lesson made Nynaeve more reckless.

 

Let me try putting this another way:

 

You do not get credit for unintended positive side effects of your negative actions. If you broke into someone's house because you wanted to steal their big screen TV (Egwene entering TAR when she wasn't supposed to because she wanted to learn) and then murder the homeowner because they happen to be home and will call the cops on you (scaring Nynaeve to keep her from telling the Wise Ones) you are not a hero because it turns out that the homeowner was actually a child molester (Nynaeve learning a lesson about the dangers of TAR). What you are is a murderer who just luckily rid the world of a bad person. You did not intend to save any kids, this was just a fortunate side effect of your negative actions and you do not get credit for this. Just like Egwene doesn't get credit for giving Nynaeve a lesson (which we don't even see that she really needs at that point).

 

You're pushing the scenario a little far, here. It's not as if she chose to sacrifice Nynaeve in her pursuit of learning, in addition, she wanted to make an example of how she was no longer Nynaeve's apprentice or a little girl from Emond's Field anymore. Is it a bit of a dick move? Yes. But let's not push what Egwene did to the extremes.

[SuperFade]

You're pushing the scenario a little far, here. It's not as if she chose to sacrifice Nynaeve in her pursuit of learning, in addition, she wanted to make an example of how she was no longer Nynaeve's apprentice or a little girl from Emond's Field anymore. Is it a bit of a dick move? Yes. But let's not push what Egwene did to the extremes.

 

So it was basically just Egwene on a power trip, then? That's an atrocious justification. That makes the situation ten times worse. It's far beyond being merely dickish. A dick move would be to strip Nyneave naked or hang her upside down from the rafters. Simulated rape seems more like something a Forsaken would resort to. The more I think about what actually happened the more unforgivable it seems to me.

[Elan Tedronai]

You're pushing the scenario a little far, here. It's not as if she chose to sacrifice Nynaeve in her pursuit of learning, in addition, she wanted to make an example of how she was no longer Nynaeve's apprentice or a little girl from Emond's Field anymore. Is it a bit of a dick move? Yes. But let's not push what Egwene did to the extremes.

 

So it was basically just Egwene on a power trip, then? That's an atrocious justification. That makes the situation ten times worse. It's far beyond being merely dickish. A dick move would be to strip Nyneave naked or hang her upside down from the rafters. Simulated rape seems more like something a Forsaken would resort to. The more I think about what actually happened the more unforgivable it seems to me.

 

nynaeve was becoming too uppity in my opinion. She basically thought the rules of the tower no longer applied to her because she was egwene's caretaker and friend. There is time for friendship and time for obedience. Nynave forgot the obedience part

[capuga]

You're pushing the scenario a little far, here. It's not as if she chose to sacrifice Nynaeve in her pursuit of learning, in addition, she wanted to make an example of how she was no longer Nynaeve's apprentice or a little girl from Emond's Field anymore. Is it a bit of a dick move? Yes. But let's not push what Egwene did to the extremes.

 

So it was basically just Egwene on a power trip, then? That's an atrocious justification. That makes the situation ten times worse. It's far beyond being merely dickish. A dick move would be to strip Nyneave naked or hang her upside down from the rafters. Simulated rape seems more like something a Forsaken would resort to. The more I think about what actually happened the more unforgivable it seems to me.

 

nynaeve was becoming too uppity in my opinion. She basically thought the rules of the tower no longer applied to her because she was egwene's caretaker and friend. There is time for friendship and time for obedience. Nynave forgot the obedience part

 

Egwene is not in a position of authority at this time. Its not up to her to decide if Nynaeve is obeying the Tower or not and its not her place to punish her for it. In fact, at this point Nynaeve as an Accepted outranks Egwene as a Novice.

[Suttree]

You're pushing the scenario a little far, here. It's not as if she chose to sacrifice Nynaeve in her pursuit of learning, in addition, she wanted to make an example of how she was no longer Nynaeve's apprentice or a little girl from Emond's Field anymore. Is it a bit of a dick move? Yes. But let's not push what Egwene did to the extremes.

 

So it was basically just Egwene on a power trip, then? That's an atrocious justification. That makes the situation ten times worse. It's far beyond being merely dickish. A dick move would be to strip Nyneave naked or hang her upside down from the rafters. Simulated rape seems more like something a Forsaken would resort to. The more I think about what actually happened the more unforgivable it seems to me.

 

I love how people keep pushing her actions farther and farther away from what actually happened to make them seem worse. It was NOT a simulated rape, things never even got close to going that far. Then in another post attempting to explain the situation we have murder brought up. Awesome.

[capuga]

Look, I never said she did that for the good reasons. I only claimed I understand what made her do it. I also claimed that what she did was right, nevertheless. Compared to Egwene (as far as Egwene knew at least, and she wasn't far from the truth), Nynaeve wasn't much more than a little child playing with fire.

 

Yes there must have been better ways to show her, but probably not faster. Unfortunately for Nynaeve, she was at the wrong place at the wrong time.b She had to be there just when Egwene was about to face her down AND in that mood. Again, she wasn't being fair (far from that) and wasn't being nice, but we get a lot of PoV's from her and she does learn from it/reflect on it and shows that she knows that. What more do you expect?

I expect her not to physically abuse her fiends to cover up her lies. Is that too much to ask?

 

Egwene knew or at least had good reasons to suspect summoning the brutes won't make Nynaeve more careful in TAR. After all, Amys's similar lessons didn't stop Egwene from risking a visit alone almost every night, and Nynaeve is even more stubborn and reluctant to follow orders or warnings. It's mentioned later that Nynaeve was visiting TAR every night (except those once a week occasions when she had to meet Egwene) after her "lesson" until Birgitte was ripped out of TAR, which finally taught Nynaeve the danger of the Dreamworld. Nynaeve didn't hesitate to eavesdrop on the Forsaken on that same night before Moghedien appeared. So if anything, Egwene's lesson made Nynaeve more reckless.

 

Let me try putting this another way:

 

You do not get credit for unintended positive side effects of your negative actions. If you broke into someone's house because you wanted to steal their big screen TV (Egwene entering TAR when she wasn't supposed to because she wanted to learn) and then murder the homeowner because they happen to be home and will call the cops on you (scaring Nynaeve to keep her from telling the Wise Ones) you are not a hero because it turns out that the homeowner was actually a child molester (Nynaeve learning a lesson about the dangers of TAR). What you are is a murderer who just luckily rid the world of a bad person. You did not intend to save any kids, this was just a fortunate side effect of your negative actions and you do not get credit for this. Just like Egwene doesn't get credit for giving Nynaeve a lesson (which we don't even see that she really needs at that point).

 

You're pushing the scenario a little far, here. It's not as if she chose to sacrifice Nynaeve in her pursuit of learning, in addition, she wanted to make an example of how she was no longer Nynaeve's apprentice or a little girl from Emond's Field anymore. Is it a bit of a dick move? Yes. But let's not push what Egwene did to the extremes.

 

Yes, my example is much more extreme then what Egwene did. The principal and point I was making is the same though. You do not get credit for unintended positive side effects of your negative actions. So the fact the Nynaeve was taught a needed lesson (which is debatable) does not excuse Egwene's very poor actions here which were done for the sole purpose of covering her own ass. Then she doesn't even have the grace to feel guilty about her hypocricy or treatment of Nynaeve once its done. Keeping yourself out of trouble is one thing, showing no remorse for your actions is another. Regardless of how anyone feels about Egwene overall, I don't see how anyone can put a positive spin on her behavior or treatment of Nynaeve in this particular instance.

[SuperFade]

nynaeve was becoming too uppity in my opinion. She basically thought the rules of the tower no longer applied to her because she was egwene's caretaker and friend. There is time for friendship and time for obedience. Nynave forgot the obedience part

 

That's hilarious, since BOTH are in violation of the rules of the Tower by posing as full Aes Sedai at this point.

[Smittyphi]

Egwene is not in a position of authority at this time. Its not up to her to decide if Nynaeve is obeying the Tower or not and its not her place to punish her for it. In fact, at this point Nynaeve as an Accepted outranks Egwene as a Novice.

Egwene gets raised to Accepted in The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 22

[SuperFade]

I love how people keep pushing her actions farther and farther away from what actually happened to make them seem worse. It was NOT a simulated rape, things never even got close to going that far. Then in another post attempting to explain the situation we have murder brought up. Awesome.

 

I fail to see how summoning some thugs who proceed to grab Nyneave, start tearing at her clothes and even try to forcefully kiss her could be anything other than simulated rape.

[Suttree]

I love how people keep pushing her actions farther and farther away from what actually happened to make them seem worse. It was NOT a simulated rape, things never even got close to going that far. Then in another post attempting to explain the situation we have murder brought up. Awesome.

 

I fail to see how summoning some thugs who proceed to grab Nyneave, start tearing at her clothes and even try to forcefully kiss her could be anything other than simulated rape.

 

You just said it yourself. The rape never occurred hence not a simulated rape.

[Zhipp]

I think Egwene was developed pretty consistently. The main thing that carried her toward being a good leader was her time spent with the Aiel - it taught her to persevere.

 

It was not the same thing at all, of course. She gritted her teeth and did as she was told because that was the only way to learn dreamwalking, and she wanted to learn, to learn everything, more than anything else she could imagine. To even think that she could live by this foolish ji'e'toh was simply silly. She did what she had to do, and only when and because she had to.

 

They were coming back to where they had begun. As her foot hit the spot, Egwene said, "That's one," and ran on through the darkness with no one to see but Aviendha, no one to say whether she went back to her tent right then. Aviendha would not have told, but it never occurred to Egwene to stop short of the fifty.

 

Perseverance is a character trait she has had from the very beginning. Her Aiel training may have strengthened that trait, but she always had it.

 

Anyway. I say her character development has been inconsistent mainly because of her beliefs about the tower, and her attitude towards Rand. Looking at what she's been through, and been taught in these past 12 books, how she came to be the way she is now is a mystery to me.

 

She has seen how the Aiel Wise ones manage without Tower interferance, and she has seen with her own eyes the selfishness and incompetence of the Aes Sedai, yet she still see's the Tower as a beacon of light, and the worlds only hope in these...trying... times.. Not only that, she wants to bind the Wise ones and Windfinders to the tower, with the Aes Sedai at their head. Considering the fact that in her time with the Aes Sedai, they have fought against her, tried to manipulate and use her, and have just been a lot of incompetent fools. I just don't understand how she can have such a high opinion of the tower, and I definitely don't see how she can actually believe the Tower should be at the head of this new alliance between channelers.

 

Now, onto the subject of Rand. She's known him all her life, yet she assumes the worst about him every chance she gets. Sure he's changed, but come on! Have a little faith in the man! She apparently believes she needs to be controlled guided, and the Aes Sedai should be the ones to do it. Seriously? After she has witnessed first hand the extremity of Aes Sedai stupidity? Unbelievable.

 

Then there's her acceptance of the three oaths when she knows the price is not worth the reward.

Immediately opposing the breaking of the seals, without any backup plan.

Shooting down the Raken that had taken prisoners without a bit of remorse.(I thought she was more compassionate than that.)

Outsmarting women with decades more experience than her. Scheming and manipulating people. Twisting the truth like a no good Tarvalon witch without even thinking about how doing so causes the oaths to lose their effect. ect...

 

Oh, and for someone who's spent so little time with the Aes sedai, she thinks way too much like them. Wasted potential, in my opinion.

I admit, though, the I probably look at it this way because of my already biased view of how Egwene's character should have turned out.

[capuga]

I love how people keep pushing her actions farther and farther away from what actually happened to make them seem worse. It was NOT a simulated rape, things never even got close to going that far. Then in another post attempting to explain the situation we have murder brought up. Awesome.

 

The point of the post wasn't to equate Egwene's actions with murder. It was to use an example of a negative action having an unintended positive side effect. And the fact that you wouldn't be considered a hero for saving the kids in the example because the only reason you killed the person was to save yourself from trouble. While the negative action in the example is more extreme, the points still apply to Egwene's situation. Trying to put a positive spin on what she did to Nynaeve and her behavior in the specific situation is ridiculous.

[SuperFade]

You just said it yourself. The rape never occurred hence not a simulated rape.

 

Simulated attempted rape, then, which is almost as bad. Are you really going to say that it wasn't a horrifying thing to do to someone?

[capuga]

Egwene is not in a position of authority at this time. Its not up to her to decide if Nynaeve is obeying the Tower or not and its not her place to punish her for it. In fact, at this point Nynaeve as an Accepted outranks Egwene as a Novice.

Egwene gets raised to Accepted in The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 22

 

You are correct, my bad. Still doesn't put Egwene in the position to judge and punish Nynaeve for being "uppity" or not obeying the Tower enough as Elan suggested.

[Suttree]

I love how people keep pushing her actions farther and farther away from what actually happened to make them seem worse. It was NOT a simulated rape, things never even got close to going that far. Then in another post attempting to explain the situation we have murder brought up. Awesome.

 

The point of the post wasn't to equate Egwene's actions with murder. It was to use an example of a negative action having an unintended positive side effect. And the fact that you wouldn't be considered a hero for saving the kids in the example because the only reason you killed the person was to save yourself from trouble. While the negative action in the example is more extreme, the points still apply to Egwene's situation. Trying to put a positive spin on what she did to Nynaeve and her behavior in the specific situation is ridiculous.

 

I get it, and I actually agree with your opinion. My point was people routinely push her actions far past what they actually are. Just in the last page a poster describing her actions as forsaken like is just plain ignorance. Super Fade has already backed off his initial claim of "simulated rape", a few more steps in the other direction and we might get to an accurate description of what actually happened.

 

Edit: See Super Fade, you have already changed your mind from "just as bad" to "almost as bad", keep going a little farther. You'll find the truth of the matter eventually.

[Elan Tedronai]

nynaeve was becoming too uppity in my opinion. She basically thought the rules of the tower no longer applied to her because she was egwene's caretaker and friend. There is time for friendship and time for obedience. Nynave forgot the obedience part

 

That's hilarious, since BOTH are in violation of the rules of the Tower by posing as full Aes Sedai at this point.

 

 

not really. Nynaeve is just another Aes Seda whereas Egwene is the amyrlin. The boss so to speak. If you don't obey the boss be prepared to be called upon that. Nynaeve crossed the line of obedience. She had to learn to obey the boss.

 

It's just like at work for me. I may joke around with my boss and he's a friend but i do know the limits and inever forget that at the end of the day he's my boss and i have to obey him.

 

Nynaeve for get that bit. Therefore the boss had to remind her who was incharge. And it's not egwene from emond's field. But Egwene the amyrlin

[SuperFade]

I get it, and I actually agree with your opinion. My point was people routinely push her actions far past what they actually are. Just in the last page a poster describing her actions as forsaken like is just plain ignorance. Super Fade has already backed off his initial claim of "simulated rape", a few more steps in the other direction and we might get to an accurate description of what actually happened.

 

Edit: See Super Fade, you have already changed your mind from "just as bad" to "almost as bad", keep going a little farther. You'll find the truth of the matter eventually.

 

Okay then. What's your interpretation of what happened? Because I honestly don't see any other explanation for what Egwene did. And yes, I changed my mind on the internet. It does happen, shocking I know, maybe you should consider it too, then we will, as you say, find the truth of the matter.

 

 

not really. Nynaeve is just another Aes Seda whereas Egwene is the amyrlin. The boss so to speak. If you don't obey the boss be prepared to be called upon that. Nynaeve crossed the line of obedience. She had to learn to obey the boss.

 

It's just like at work for me. I may joke around with my boss and he's a friend but i do know the limits and inever forget that at the end of the day he's my boss and i have to obey him.

 

Nynaeve for get that bit. Therefore the boss had to remind her who was incharge. And it's not egwene from emond's field. But Egwene the amyrlin

 

Okay, now it's clear you're trolling. Egwene was not Amyrlin at this point.

[Feral]

nynaeve was becoming too uppity in my opinion. She basically thought the rules of the tower no longer applied to her because she was egwene's caretaker and friend. There is time for friendship and time for obedience. Nynave forgot the obedience part

 

That's hilarious, since BOTH are in violation of the rules of the Tower by posing as full Aes Sedai at this point.

 

 

not really. Nynaeve is just another Aes Seda whereas Egwene is the amyrlin. The boss so to speak. If you don't obey the boss be prepared to be called upon that. Nynaeve crossed the line of obedience. She had to learn to obey the boss.

 

It's just like at work for me. I may joke around with my boss and he's a friend but i do know the limits and inever forget that at the end of the day he's my boss and i have to obey him.

 

Nynaeve for get that bit. Therefore the boss had to remind her who was incharge. And it's not egwene from emond's field. But Egwene the amyrlin

 

As someone already said, Egwene wasn't the Amyrilin at this point...

[Elan Tedronai]

nynaeve was becoming too uppity in my opinion. She basically thought the rules of the tower no longer applied to her because she was egwene's caretaker and friend. There is time for friendship and time for obedience. Nynave forgot the obedience part

 

That's hilarious, since BOTH are in violation of the rules of the Tower by posing as full Aes Sedai at this point.

 

 

not really. Nynaeve is just another Aes Seda whereas Egwene is the amyrlin. The boss so to speak. If you don't obey the boss be prepared to be called upon that. Nynaeve crossed the line of obedience. She had to learn to obey the boss.

 

It's just like at work for me. I may joke around with my boss and he's a friend but i do know the limits and inever forget that at the end of the day he's my boss and i have to obey him.

 

Nynaeve for get that bit. Therefore the boss had to remind her who was incharge. And it's not egwene from emond's field. But Egwene the amyrlin

 

As someone already said, Egwene wasn't the Amyrilin at this point...

 

 

i thought you guys were referring to the TOM incident between egwene and nynaeve.....

[Smittyphi]

i thought you guys were referring to the TOM incident between egwene and nynaeve.....

 

The Fires of Heaven chapter 15

[randsc]

So my daughter insists on walking home through a bad part of town, just because she is curious. I am naturally concerned for her safety. So I have a couple of my friends waylay her on her way home, drag her into an alley, and rip her clothes. As a consequence, she learns her lesson, and never again walks home through the bad part of town.

 

Am I a good father?

 

Taking it one step further:

 

My daughter insists on walking home through a bad part of town, just because she is curious. I don't want her walking through that part of town, because the piece I am getting on the side lives there, and I am afraid my daughter will see me and tell my wife. So I have a couple of my friends waylay my daughter on her way home, drag her into an alley, and rip her clothes. As a consequence, she learns her lesson, and never again walks home through the bad part of town, plus my secret is safe from my wife.

 

Am I a good father?

 

Seriously, Egwene's actions toward Nynaeve were inexcusable. I don't see how anyone can reasonably argue otherwise.