First Time Reading the First Book

[randsc]

The girl can ask her mother's permission to have sex with a boy.

 

I've read no such thing in the books. Can you tell me in which chapter did you read that, or point to an interview or something?

 

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 31.

 

***Edited, to remove a fairly major spoiler.***

 

So during the year when a couple is "walking out," but prior to becoming betrothed, a girl can ask permission of her mother and the Wisdom.

[csarmi]

First of all, I do NOT read it that way.

Second, it was on purpose that I asked a chapter name, not to link it. Why posting such major spoilers? I know Sunny said spoilers are not a problem but still...

[randsc]

First of all, I do NOT read it that way.

Second, it was on purpose that I asked a chapter name, not to link it. Why posting such major spoilers? I know Sunny said spoilers are not a problem but still...

 

 

So how do you read it?

 

And I had removed the spoiler before you posted.

 

So, with quotes but not enough to spoil:

 

In the Two Rivers, you walked out for a year, and if you suited, then you became betrothed and finally married; that was as far as custom went.

 

I meant about a girl asking her mother’s permission during the year, and the Wisdom’s. I cannot say I understand that.” The white blouse going over her head muffled her words for a moment. “If she wants him, and she is old enough to marry, why should she need permission?

 

 

“I see,” he said weakly. Any boy in the Two Rivers who asked his father for that kind of permission was asking to have his ears soundly boxed. When he thought of the lads who had sweated themselves silly worrying that someone, anyone, would find out what they were doing with the girl they meant to marry . . .

 

 

"The year" pretty clearly refers to the year when a couple are walking out, yes? Which is prior to betrothal. These are people considering marriage but not committed to it, and the girl can receive permission from her mother and the Wisdom to do something. Somthing that would cause any boy who asked his father for the same permission to have his ears boxed.

 

Really, I don't see another plausible reading.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

maybe what they're supposed to ask permission for is to marry? i think rand might misunderstand what women ask their moms, as he, and the other boys, seem to misunderstand so many things about women. men seem unfamiliar with women's customs, and women with men's, in the two rivers.

[csarmi]

That the girl can ask her mother's permission to marry the boy (or to marry sooner). Certainly not to have sex before marriage.

Yea I saw the edit we posted the same time.

[randsc]

That the girl can ask her mother's permission to marry the boy (or to marry sooner). Certainly not to have sex before marriage.

Yea I saw the edit we posted the same time.

 

Not so. Very clearly not so. The girl can ask permission to do something that would cause a boy to have his ears boxed by his father if he asked the same question. A boy asking for permission to marry would have his ears boxed? Don't think so. It is very clear from the context what they are talking about.

 

I added some relevant quotes, carefully selected to not be spoilers, to my last post.

[randsc]

maybe what they're supposed to ask permission for is to marry? i think rand might misunderstand what women ask their moms, as he, and the other boys, seem to misunderstand so many things about women. men seem unfamiliar with women's customs, and women with men's, in the two rivers.

 

I don't think so. Kinry and Bar already had permission to marry. They got up to something in a hayloft that they were supposed to have permission for, and didn't.

 

There is an Egwene internal conversation somewhere that makes this interpretation clear. I'll see if I can find it.

[Tiinker]

I don't think so. Kinry and Bar already had permission to marry. They got up to something in a hayloft that they were supposed to have permission for, and didn't.

 

Naw way without PERMISSION? :P

[David Selig]

I edited out my spoiler on the previous page (about Rand's thoughts on the couple which Nynaeve caught in the barn), apologies to Always Sunny, I forgot for a minute the nature of this thread and just replied to one of the posts.

 

But the early spoilerish version of the post was quoted by randsc and remains visible, so I'd be grateful of he or one of the mods edits out the spoiler.

 

Anyway, I think randsc is right in his interpretation. Which again confirms, BTW, how much power the Wisdom has in Two Rivers villages.

[Always Sunny]

Alright. Sobered up. Just in time for a Friday night out!

 

I have to say that most of this discussion has gone over my head. I get that someone in the future is going to get married (Rand, from the look of the comments) and that permission must be asked. Beyond that? Yeah, I'm totally lost. So no worries about spoilers. Rand getting married isn't that big of a shocker. But to whom? Not Egwene, right? The only other women I've seen him with is Else Grinwell (but I think she was a bit character) and Selene (and she's probably a villain and not in this book so we shouldn't discuss her now). Maybe his new lady friend will pop up in another book. Maybe she's a witch!

 

Your discussion makes me think that folks are going back to Two Rivers. I've got two reasons for thinking this. One, there is still no clue in the books so far of the power the Women's Circle wields that everyone here keeps talking about. I can't see how that stuff can come up unless they go back home and experience (I would really hate long pages of exposition where the main characters just talk about it). Two, all of this permission-asking makes me think that someone's got to go home and ask some mother for permission.

 

But this didn't happen in book 1. And in book 2 the group has scattered hither and yon. But the book is so beating me over the noggin with "Toman Head" that I have no doubt that the climax will be there. Two Rivers is between Fal Dara and Toman's Head so maybe they'll spot by on their way across the continent. If not in this book, then book 3 (where I assume Mat will make his way back to Tar Valon to finally, months later, cure him of that dagger curse that was days away from killing him half-way through book 1). And if they don't get back to Two Rivers by then? Who knows?

 

Well, you all do, probably.

 

Here's another question, though: How much longer before the set up is over? I've been told that this is just the beginning of a series, that things are warming up, so I shouldn't worry to much about things. How many hundreds of pages to I have to get through before the "real story" starts? Book 4? I ask this because I'm inexperienced in multi-book epic fantasy so I really just don't know.

 

It'd be as if the first Indiana Jones movie was awful, but you had to watch it to understand the second movie. But that movie was just a set up for the wicked awesome third movie. Why can't all the books be awesome, you know? Is it really necessary in epic fantasy to sacrifice the current narrative to construct a setup for a future narrative? I feel that's what is happening with all this prophecy and Foretellings and visions. There's an action-filled scene that has me on the edge of my seat and then they stop to talk about ancient history. I can't help but feel that if that ancient history was really important then Robert Jordan would have written the book set at that time. I feel as if I'm reading a book about people learning about history (it would get really meta if the fellowship learned about an ancient historian who collected stories of earlier historians; so I'd be reading a book about kids learning about a historian who collects stories about historians who learn history) instead of a book about people fighting the Dark One.

 

I may have worded that question incorrectly. And I may have strayed from my thesis statement in preceding paragraph. I am sorry about that. My head still isn't screwed on straight today.

[Sleeper]

The series really gets going around the 4th book, IMO.

 

And yes, in a way a lot of the setup you're seeing in EOTW and TGH is necessary. It basically is setting the scene for important issues that are going to become more apparent in the future. The ancient history is pretty important if you want to understand every nuance of the series.

[A2597]

It's important to remember that books 1-3 were all written with no knowledge of if the next one would happen, so each had to come to some "ending", book one with the Dragon Reborn, 2 and 3 with their own climaxes...

 

This makes them have a slightly different feel than the books that follow, they add an incredible amount of history and information, and set the groundwork for the series. The story does progress through them, and very quickly at some points, but they are also each somewhat stand alone stories.

 

I really really really want to see your writings on the latter half of book 2. (I imagine several people here are as well). I know, I'm such a tease, haha

[Bluedust9]

Removed for innappropriate language in addressing a fellow poster.

[Mighty Chin]

I'm gonna chime in here and suggest that Sunny just doesn't understand subtext. She's read into book two and still insists that all the men hold down the important jobs. From her point of view the Womens Circle has not been stated clear enough that it is in fact in control of their respective Villages. Sunny cannot seem to wrap her brain around the fact that the women really are in charge. I don't think she's going to be satisfied even after we return to The Two Rivers in Book 4 and 5. I just don't think she should be reading this series. Subtext is everything in this series. How the characters relate to one another tells you everything you need to know about this world.

 

So up to where she's read she's already been introduced to the Queen of Andor and The Amyrlin Seat who are arguably two of the three most powerful positions women hold thus far. She hasn't been introduced to the Aiel Wise Ones not to mention Avi and Sorilea. The Seafolks Mistress of the Ships or The Panarch and let's not forget about the First of Mayene. I wonder how she'll feel about good 'ol Cads? I don't think she'll make it that far.

 

iPhone post so I didn't proof read

[Luckers]

I really don't know how to make this any clearer--next person to make a rude or derogatory post will get a seven day ban.

[Puny]

Why is everyone so mean lol. Play nice, we are all part of the Pattern.

 

Like in (almost) all fantasy, the history and the Land itself if really important and since Jordan needed to set up the world and groundwork as someone else (A2597) said earlier.

 

Mighty Chin (lol love your name): It may be true that she doesn´t understand subtext but I think she does. I think she says some of these things to provoke, she has even stated she does. I know most women have power in RandLand cause I´ve read up until tGS. (Although that will change also.)

If Sunny is reading the books for the first time cut her some slack. I remember when I read the books for the first time. I just straight forward read them. Did I miss awesome forshadowing, implyed sex here and there and mysterious plots that weren´t relevant until 2 books later? Yes. Did that make my experience reading the books any less? No... cause I didn´t know what I was missing.

[UncleButcher1980]

Here's another question, though: How much longer before the set up is over? I've been told that this is just the beginning of a series, that things are warming up, so I shouldn't worry to much about things. How many hundreds of pages to I have to get through before the "real story" starts? Book 4? I ask this because I'm inexperienced in multi-book epic fantasy so I really just don't know.

There are many different threads in this story, many sub-plots and sub-plots to those sub-plots. The 'main' story, if you can simply call it that, well I think it has been going on since the beginning. I obviously don't want to spoil later books for you but yes, a lot of people say book 4 is where it gets good, but that's not necessarily saying that's where the story starts.

 

It'd be as if the first Indiana Jones movie was awful, but you had to watch it to understand the second movie. But that movie was just a set up for the wicked awesome third movie. Why can't all the books be awesome, you know? Is it really necessary in epic fantasy to sacrifice the current narrative to construct a setup for a future narrative? I feel that's what is happening with all this prophecy and Foretellings and visions. There's an action-filled scene that has me on the edge of my seat and then they stop to talk about ancient history.

See, this, I think is just personal preference. I genuinely think all the books are awesome, though I know a great deal of people think differently. As for the action packed scene followed by something slower in pace, again that's just personal preference. One of the things I really love about these books are the changes in pace. Crikey, I think 14 books of fast action would leave me knackered!

[Mighty Chin]

I really don't know how to make this any clearer--next person to make a rude or derogatory post will get a seven day ban.

 

Who made a rude or derogatory comment after your last warning?

[Isgrimner]

I'm gonna chime in here and suggest that Sunny just doesn't understand subtext. She's read into book two and still insists that all the men hold down the important jobs. From her point of view the Womens Circle has not been stated clear enough that it is in fact in control of their respective Villages. Sunny cannot seem to wrap her brain around the fact that the women really are in charge. I don't think she's going to be satisfied even after we return to The Two Rivers in Book 4 and 5. I just don't think she should be reading this series. Subtext is everything in this series. How the characters relate to one another tells you everything you need to know about this world.

 

So up to where she's read she's already been introduced to the Queen of Andor and The Amyrlin Seat who are arguably two of the three most powerful positions women hold thus far. She hasn't been introduced to the Aiel Wise Ones not to mention Avi and Sorilea. The Seafolks Mistress of the Ships or The Panarch and let's not forget about the First of Mayene. I wonder how she'll feel about good 'ol Cads? I don't think she'll make it that far.

 

iPhone post so I didn't proof read

 

 

I agree. I also see nothing wrong with the way it was stated.

[Puny]

Understanding subtext and having a different perspective are two different things. You can have different perspectives on a book and still dont understand subtext, not that I´m saying that she doesn´t understand it.

I´ve always read the Wotworld as woman having power and how "bad" this is to the world, aka there is no balance in there. Just weird that it should take 3000 years for it to happen (shift of balance)... but maybe not cause the male channelers were doomed to go crazy. The men gaining more power is a good thing cause how the Female Aes Sedai have been handling things... not so good.

 

Although I think one of the reasons that RJ made the female on top and powerful in Randland was to highlight the imbalance of the sexes in our own world.

[Puny]

Well RJ mostly showed the channeling world, thus we don´t know how much power men/women have otherways. In TR it seems that women have power of certain things and men over other, in Saldaea men seem to have the power over women (with the womens consent =P) the Atha´an ´Miere - the shipmistress and other have power over certain things and the Cargomasters have power over other things, same in the Aiel Society. In Ebou Dar it seems the women have power of the men (with all the knives, so a nice counterbalance to the Saldaeans)... there are kings and queens, mm I´m just musing here.

 

My point is RJs world is all about balance, things being in balance, and how up above so down below. Zen Rand is the greatest example of this. But the one inbalance in the world are the Aes Sedai. The taint gone puny spoiler from WH) is a thing that shifts the world abit towards balance, but the biggest imbalance is still the one between Ashman (all glory to Logain <3) and the Aes Sedai. Hopefully that is gonna be fixed soon =)

 

But one´s gain IS another one´s loss. Not in the end, for the world is a better place for it, but we all know how shortsighed humans are, so in the short run men would loose.

[Agitel]

Robert Jordan originally planned this whole thing as a trilogy. The first book was supposed to end where The Dragon Reborn does. In a lot of ways, I feel that a lot really begins at that point.

 

With that said, people aren't saying "oh books 1-3 are bad, just wait until book 4". You're going to be getting exposition throughout the series (it's somewhat the way of fantasy). The plots are going to divide in many different directions. If, after The Great Hunt, you aren't enjoying the series, it's probably not for you. Many people recommend reading tGH if you're on the fence with tEotW because Jordan really improved his writing and you get a better idea of the scope of the series, but if it feels like you're forcing yourself, well, then, perhaps that's it with the WoT for you.

 

You responded to a comment I made in the last blog entry. I was going to do it there, but I think I'll move it here. I'm not going to copy and edit everything to save some space. If that's a problem, let me know.

 

That is a fantastic point! But think about this: Perrin doesn't want Egwene to dance like she is because of X. If X is because Perrin cares for Egwene, her well-being, or something like that then I can get behind it. But X is because "that's not how they do things back home." Well, how do they do things back home? Back home girls don't dance like that, girls are supposed to act in a certain way (this way is enforced by both social custom and the active hand of the Women's Circle).

 

It's not just standards for women. Women and men of Andor (particularly the Two Rivers) are expected to dress and behave modestly. If, say, Mat wanted to learn how to do a sexy-strip tease, his father or mother would box his ears the Wisdom would give him a harsh scolding. I'll get to your point of it not affecting men as much so sexism against men doesn't matter in a minute.

 

You've got to realize where I'm coming from when I say things like this. You're coming from a position that the boys and girls of this world are equal, more or less. So when one person does something it will be judged in the exact same way as when someone else does it. If Egwene has a one night stand and I'm happy then I should be happy if Perrin does the same thing. Am I right?

 

I'm coming from a position that the boys and girls are not equal. Their actions need to be judged on a case by case basis (no Zero Tolerance that applies to everyone, in other words). For example: say there is a dictatorship and one group of people, the Reds, oppress the other group, the Blues. When a Red guns down a Blue like a dog in the street it's a bad thing. When a Blue shoots a Red it is an act of defiance, a good act that might bring about an end of oppression. Another example: if a child throws a tantrum I can forgive it (and also get annoyed by it). But if an adult does it then I get pissed. Two human beings but with huge inequities in power, experience, and expectations. The same physical action but different feelings towards it because of the people who performed the action.

 

In a world where Perrin and Egwene are not equal I cannot judge their actions the exact same way.

 

Emphasis mine. I think this is where most everyone else in here will disagree with you. Men and women are co-equals in Emond's Field. Where, may I ask, have you seen any indication that women are considered anything less? Not once have we seen a Two Rivers woman being submissive to a man. If you were to ask any of the women or men in Emond's Field if a women was supposed to be subservient to her husband they would burst out laughing. In an earlier response to the issue of Nynaeve's sexism you said that her sexism didn't matter as men would just shrug it off. Well I ask you, where have you seen women do anything less than shrug it off in this series? It doesn't affect them, not in the way you believe it does, not anymore than it does the men, and that's what I mean when you've misread all the interactions between characters in a story.

 

You keep reiterating that you've no evidence that the Women's Circle has any influence, but I'd like to go back to the opening chapters of The Eye of the World.

 

"What are we going to do about Nynaeve, al'Thor?" Congar demanded. "We can't have a Wisdom like that for Emond's Field."

 

Tam sighed heavily. "It's not our place, Wit. The Wisdom is women's buisness."

 

"Well, we'd better do something, al'Thor. She said we'd have a mild winter. And a good harvest. Now you ask her what she hears on the wind, and she just scowls at you and stomps off."

 

"If you asked her the way you usually do, Wit," Tam said patiently, "you're lucky she didn't thump you with that stick she carries. Now if you don't mind, this brandy--"

 

"Nynaeve al'Meara is just too young to be Wisdom, al'Thor. If the Women's Circle won't do something, then the village council has to."

 

"What business of yours is the Wisdom, Wit Congar?" roared a woman's voice. Wit flinched as his wife marched out of the house. Daise Congar was twice as wide as Wit, a hard faced woman without an ounce of fat on her. She glared at him with her fists on her hips. "You try meddling in Women's Circle business, and see how you like eating your own cooking. Which you won't do in my kitchen. And washing your clothes and making your own bed. Which won't be under my roof.

 

"But, Daise," Wit whined, "I was just. . . ."

 

"If you'll pardon me, Daise," Tam said."

 

...

 

The reaction from Daise towards a man meddling in Women's Circle business is not unusual. Any man who meddles is likely to get a good tongue-lashing at the least, perhaps kicked out of his home and made the town fool at the worst (which goes to show some of the political and social power women have in the village). There are a few tangential issues. The women run the home. I don't mean they run the home and then the man comes in and kicks back, declares himself king of the castle, and orders his wife to make a sandwich. That would get him sent to bed without supper or kicked out of his home (treated as a child for acting like one), and if he has a problem with that he has to go through the Woman's Circle to fix it. I think it's important to stress that the woman is also a co-equal in running the finances of the house. There's no sense that the men are the breadwinners. We're talking about small town communities, here, all the businesses are family-oriented, and the role a woman takes is considered no less important in the relationship than that of the man's (and if a man were to tell her so, he'd be kicked out of the house until he either apologizes enough or somehow convinces the Women's Circle he has the right of it). If the women doesn't due her duty, the man has to fill in. If the man doesn't do his duty, he'll be kicked out of the house and the woman will have to fill in.

 

A woman's status within the village is also completely independent of her husband. Wit is considered a fool and an idiot (Tam was trying to talk Wit down from meddling with woman's affairs and a generally sexist attitude, though I should point out Wit's complaints were very much with Nynaeve's age and the fact that her predictions on weather were wrong), he doesn't sit on the Village Council. But Daise is a very respected woman in the Women's Circle. A point was made earlier that economic status means little for social status in the Two Rivers. You made a point that a rich lord has more social status than a farmer (or something along those lines) earlier in the topic, but within the Two Rivers there's essentially no wealth gap, and if someone comes down on hard times it means most everyone has and the community comes together. If there was a wealth gap, or if we were talking about an industrialized town with people going to work from 9-5 every day, this structure wouldn't work, I agree.

 

This might also be the time to address the issue of the braid, which you said was sexist because the men didn't have to do the same. I just have to disagree. The braid confers no sense of gender dominance. It's a statement of pride, a symbol of both culture and tradition. If a woman stopped wearing the braid in the Two Rivers the Women's Circle would disapprove, but they'd be in a righteous fury if a man threw a fit about it, and he'd get a tongue lashing for meddling in women's business. You say that women can be just as involved in enforcing male dominance, but I beg you to show me any example of how this confers dominance to the men in the way it actually plays out in the Two Rivers.

 

 

To pull some more quotes out of the first few chapters.

 

Cenn gave them a sour look. "I've not much good to say about Nynaeve al'Meara. You know that. For one thing, she's too young to-- No matter. The Women's Circle seems to object to the Village Council even talking about their business, though they interfere in our whenever they want to, which is most of the time, or so it seems to--"

 

"Cenn," Tam broke in, "is there a point to this?"

 

Nynaeve shook her head. "So that's why the peddler's wagon stands abandoned. I heard people rushing to meet it, but I couldn't leave Mistress Ayellin till her fever broke. The Council is questioning the peddler about what's happening in Ghealdan, are they? If I know them, they're asking all the wrong questions and none of the right ones. It will take the Women's Circle to find out anything useful." Settling her cloak firmly on her shoulders she disappeared into the inn.

 

Here we get an example of what Cenn, as distasteful as he is, described before. The idea of the Mayor managing to get in on a Women's Circle meeting is just downright funny knowing these characters; it wouldn't happen. It should also be noted that the Village Council was already assembled and in meeting when the peddler arrived, giving them a jump on the gun. Nynaeve clearly points out that the Women's Circle is going to be just as involved in the issue once they can meet. When Cenn Buie starts making outright sexist comments after the meeting about Nynaeve wanting a husband, he's shot down quickly be the Mayor, who calls him a "black-veiled Aiel". Such talk isn't appreciated by the Mayor (though the Wisdom has no issue with saying such things straight to the Mayor's face).

 

I should point out that both men and women are under pressure to marry, it's not a one-sided thing. Even the Tam is under pressure. "[Mistress al'Vere] was one of the few married women in the area who never tried to play matchmaker with Tam." But young men and women are both reliant on their families before marriage, and to a large degree after. A young woman is just as likely to get economic independence as a young man (fairly small chance, but equal).

 

I think my main point is that you say sexism only matters when it has an affect on gender dominance. Looking at the Two Rivers, I don't see any effect. I don't see any gender dominance. I haven't seen submissive women, they're all very much doing their own thing and acting as co-equals (at least) to men. The only thing I can say is that most of the characters we've met at this point in the Two Rivers are male, but that's it. Not one woman I've seen here was less than a man in value, though I will say that Daise certainly has the advantage on Wit. We'll get an even clearer picture of it in an upcoming book. Women don't need to go behind men's backs to do things, men aren't the heads of households, they're co-equals.

 

This type of society would not work in the modern world. It's entirely theoretical, and rather than applying it to this world you should be looking in that one and seeing how things play out. In the modern world there's a long, long history of patriarchal society, but in this one the idea of gender dominance has been dead for many thousands of years. You're trying to fit a square in a circle hole. You believe that any form of gender roles will result in gender dominance. In effect in the Two Rivers, that's not what's happened, and there's been no evidence that it has and only evidence to the contrary. The women have equal financial, social and political power as the men (something that can't be said for most modern societies). If the female to male sexism doesn't matter, than I can't see how the male to female sexism matters, not unless there's results you can point to.

 

I want to clarify that the Two Rivers culture certainly enforces gender roles on men and women. I don't consider that right. But it doesn't enforce a system of gender dominance. If you believe it does, let's discuss actual examples. Your point that Perrin and Egwene come from a society we're there not capable of equal influence, status, etc... just isn't true.

 

Anyway, the Two Rivers is just one type of society we'll see. You start seeing a few of the more exotic cultures deeper in the series, and Jordan has less of a male bias as it goes on.

 

I've typed so much for so long I feel as if I've only remembered to say half of what I wanted to.

 

EDIT: I just wanted to add a couple of other things. You've noted in the past that the boys tease each other when they lose to a girl. So do most of the men in the Two Rivers (hell, in the series). Counterpoint: The women do the same thing to each other.

 

The Village Council and Women's Circle are effectively unions in addition to political bodies.

[UncleButcher1980]

Edited

 

Wow, thumbs up for a really well written, even-minded post.

[Sleeper]

-snip-

Hats off to you, good sir. Excellent write-up.

[capuga]

Whole bunch of good stuff...

 

I've stayed out of this thread in order to avoid the gender discussions but I have to say that Agitel has just written a very intelligent, reasonable argument (without any insults!) loaded with evidence from the book that pretty much conveys anything I would want to say on the subject. Very well done post.