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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

The ending


Elan Tedronai
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How's rand goin to seal the bore?

 

LTT used saidin last time and it led to you know what. If the women joined him in his plan it would have led to even greater disaster.

 

There is no Choedan kal anymore. so how is he going to seal it this time?

 

I can't see any other way than using the power and if the power is used it runs the chance of being tainted like last time.

Edited by Elan Tedronai
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How's rand goin to seal the bore?

 

LTT used saidin last time and it led to you know what. If the women joined him in his plan it would have led to even greater disaster.

 

There is no Choedan kal anymore. so how is he going to seal it this time?

 

I can't see any other way than using the power and if the power is used it runs the chance of being tainted like last time.

I believe that Fain will be important for that one. I've seen many others express the same view on this forum too. Rand already used Fain's power (the evil of Shadar Logoth) to cleanse saidin. Also, Flinn used it to heal Rand. I think something along these lines will be used in the LB. either by using Fain himself or by spilling Rand's blood from the wound from Fain's dagger in his side. Saidar and saidin will be used too but Fain's power will be what touches the DO directly.

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also we dont know that it would have been a disaster to use both directly. I read a quote (I think from BS) that said that the circumstances for the backlash had to be exact for it to have happened, and if both were there, he couldnt have tainted either one. cant find the quote now but that is what it said.

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You have it backwards, haloun. He said that if both were used both would have been tainted, but he did say that the circumstances had to be exactly right.

Edited by Torn Shadow
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You have it backwards, haloun. He said that if both were used both would have been tainted, but he did say that the circumstances had to be exactly right.

 

Not sure you're disagreeing with him there. I think he is saying that yes, that particular time (LTT's sealing) both sides would have been tainted if they were both used. But because the circumstances have to be just right for the Dark One to be able to cause the taint, its possible that if both sides of the Power were used now they might not be tainted because all the circumstances wouldn't be exactly the same as LTT's time.

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Guest Emu on the Loose

It is said the Dark One was thrown into his prison at the moment of creation. But it is also said that time is a wheel that goes round endlessly. How could there have been a moment of creation? Unless! There is periodically such a creation, and a destruction preceding it.

 

Perhaps the Dark One will be destroyed and replaced. It's very telling that Mashadar is as evil as the Dark One yet cancels it out rather than doubles it. Perhaps the "Shadow" can originate from any sufficiently malevolent source.

 

Some have suggested that Fain will supplant the DO. I'm not ready to endorse that theory yet, but it's an interesting thought.

 

Somebody else came up with a completely unrelated, much more far-flung theory, but I really like it: People are the seal on the Dark One's prison. Rather than using the One Power to channel weaves centered around inanimate focus points, people themselves can serve as focus points for powerful weaves of Spirit (or of all five) that bind the Dark One to a prison beneath the Pattern.

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You have it backwards, haloun. He said that if both were used both would have been tainted, but he did say that the circumstances had to be exactly right.

 

Not sure you're disagreeing with him there. I think he is saying that yes, that particular time (LTT's sealing) both sides would have been tainted if they were both used. But because the circumstances have to be just right for the Dark One to be able to cause the taint, its possible that if both sides of the Power were used now they might not be tainted because all the circumstances wouldn't be exactly the same as LTT's time.

 

 

what do you mean by that? if and when rand breaks the seals we are back into square one with the bore open just like during the war of power. If LTT used saidin and saidar in a link as he suggested they would both get tainted.

 

so how do you get accross that problem? by the way i don't believe the DO can ever be killed. This is not some trolloc we are talking about.

Edited by Elan Tedronai
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You have it backwards, haloun. He said that if both were used both would have been tainted, but he did say that the circumstances had to be exactly right.

 

Not sure you're disagreeing with him there. I think he is saying that yes, that particular time (LTT's sealing) both sides would have been tainted if they were both used. But because the circumstances have to be just right for the Dark One to be able to cause the taint, its possible that if both sides of the Power were used now they might not be tainted because all the circumstances wouldn't be exactly the same as LTT's time.

 

 

what do you mean by that? if and when rand breaks the seals we are back into square one with the bore open just like during the war of power. If LTT used saidin and saidar in a link as he suggested they would both get tainted.

 

so how do you get accross that problem? by the way i don't believe the DO can ever be killed. This is some trolloc we are talking about.

 

Refering to Brandon's quote that the circumstances had to be exactly right in order for the Dark One to have been able to taint Saidin. What were those circumstances? We don't know. If there is something just a bit different in how Rand goes about sealing the Dark One up, its possible that the Source would not be tainted. For example, he is going to use Callandor in some way rather than having the Hundred Companions. This might be different enough that they could touch him with both Saidar and Saidin and not have the Dark One be able to taint them.

 

There were a lot more circumstances around sealing the bore than just the bore being open. Maybe LTT should have used 90 men instead of 100. Maybe the seals shouldn't have been made of cuendillar. Maybe having the Forsaken trapped in the bore as well caused some kind of problem. Maybe LTT should have put some kind of One Power shield in place before placing the seals. Maybe he should have used a little less Spirit in the weaves. Maybe he should have made the strike at night instead of the day.

 

Brandon's quote implies that all of these things lined up just right which gave the Dark One

the ability to taint Saidin. Perhaps if Rand changes any of these things that won't happen this time, even if he touches the Dark One with both Saidar and Saidin.

 

Note, I don't necessary believe this - just thoughts based on Brandon's quote. Just because touching the Dark One with both halves of the Source would have tainted them both in the AoL does not necessarily mean that he would be able to do that this Age.

Edited by Mark Grayson
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Herid Fel pointed out that at some time in this Turning, the hole in the Pattern that is the Bore has to be closed, made as new, not simply sealed or patched; so that in the next AoL it can be re-bored!

 

So I'm wondering if this is what Rand will do - mend the Pattern, not re-patch it. If so, it may take all three ta'veren together to bend the Pattern around themselves as they act as one..

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Someone's gotta seal the hole so Lanfear can dig the hole again. ;) Stupid Lanfear, being all hot and crazy.

Edited by Axon
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"If Saidar had been used, it would have been an even greater disaster"

 

and

 

"If saidar had been used, saidar would also have been tainted"

 

are not the same thing.

 

If saidar and saidin are both used this time, and both are tainted, but the result is the complete sealing away of the Dark One, that's a victory.

 

The remaining channellers would have to work quickly to make and distribute Elayne's "imperfect" foxheads, and build a network of copies of Far Madding's Guardian, but if they did, there would be no second Breaking.

 

The OP would still exist, ready to be accessed in some future Age.

 

But what is most important is that the Dark One be sealed away, not that some people continue to have the ability to perform magic tricks.

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Or they could try to pull a cleansing, it took the CK because both Rand and Nyn where alone, with greater numbers, perhaps a true full circle, and lesser angreal/ Sa'angreal it is conceivable that they could get enough power to remove it. Though, the exact method would have to be different this time around, perhaps go to TAR and create a Shadar Logoth to attract the taint. (The power and the taint were universal, so I assume that if the taint is removed in TAR it would be removed in reality, because it has its own reality in TAR, as it does everwhere. Remember that when in the portal stone world Rand still felt the taint when he grabbed Saidin in order to leave)

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"If Saidar had been used, it would have been an even greater disaster"

 

and

 

"If saidar had been used, saidar would also have been tainted"

 

are not the same thing.

 

If saidar and saidin are both used this time, and both are tainted, but the result is the complete sealing away of the Dark One, that's a victory.

 

The remaining channellers would have to work quickly to make and distribute Elayne's "imperfect" foxheads, and build a network of copies of Far Madding's Guardian, but if they did, there would be no second Breaking.

 

The OP would still exist, ready to be accessed in some future Age.

 

But what is most important is that the Dark One be sealed away, not that some people continue to have the ability to perform magic tricks.

 

 

that's a victory that will come at too high a price. And a million fox heads will not make a difference if all the channellers in rand land go mad instantly. The world will be doomed. You will have a worse breaking and an age that will never end since no one will live long enough to device a plan to clean the both halves of the source

Edited by Elan Tedronai
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"If Saidar had been used, it would have been an even greater disaster"

 

and

 

"If saidar had been used, saidar would also have been tainted"

 

are not the same thing.

 

If saidar and saidin are both used this time, and both are tainted, but the result is the complete sealing away of the Dark One, that's a victory.

 

The remaining channellers would have to work quickly to make and distribute Elayne's "imperfect" foxheads, and build a network of copies of Far Madding's Guardian, but if they did, there would be no second Breaking.

 

The OP would still exist, ready to be accessed in some future Age.

 

But what is most important is that the Dark One be sealed away, not that some people continue to have the ability to perform magic tricks.

 

 

that's a victory that will come at too high a price. And a million fox heads will not make a difference if all the channellers in rand land go mad instantly. The world will be doomed. You will have a worse breaking and an age that will never since no one will live long enough to device a plan to clean the both halves of the source

 

Well, one way or another there will be an Age without channeling. Jordan said so. Actually, he said, "Ages."

 

It is entirely possible that the next Age won't be one of the Ages without channeling. But it is certain that the ability to channel will be lost before there is another Age of Legends.

 

Unless, of course, the Wheel gets broken.

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Interesting points here. I'm sure this has been debated quite frequently here and in other places but here's my take on it.

 

First off i think Saidin was tainted for a couple of different reasons. 1. the lack of Callandor. 2. They sealed the bore with a man made object. cuendillar seals are physical things focus points to shut away the dark one. Perhaps Callandors flaw (lack of buffer) is what protects the user from teh dark ones touch, and in "Sealing" the bore the way LTT did lacking that protection the dark one was able to touch his saidin flows into the seals and taint the entire wheels worth of Saidin. 1 seal was wrought, perhaps the next seal made allowed Big Do to touch saidin even further and so on and so forth.

 

In order to fix this Rand can't use a physical thing to shut the door on big DO. He's gotta use callandor and mend the bore. Return it to its original state. Maybe he'll use his big fancy dragon taveren powers. Bottom line is You cant "seal" this leak. It has to be built anew. Rand is the creator made flesh, the creator sealed Big D away at the moment of creation. I think its safe to say Rands stepping into some pretty big shoes.

 

I really must say i like the padan fain theory. Perhaps Rand will need to use fain as the focus point as he did in shadar logoth, evil fighting evil. Maybe he will seal fain inside the prison so they can have a go and vote a DO off the DO island. However it happens... Its going to rock!

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If the DO's prison IS the pattern then it would make sense that things that work on the Pattern would be used to mend the DO's prison. The only things I can think of would be the True Power (probably to be ruled out for obvious reasons) and Ta'verenness. Maybe they'll need some kind of guide/weave/ter'angreal (maybe that's callandor's purpose) to direct the "Ta'verenness" to seal the Bore, but that's as good an explanation as any I've seen.

 

Anyway back to the topîc "What is going to be different this time?" I believe Rand could actually have a shot at killing the DO for good. Maybe that would involve breaking the Wheel, shutting the OP from people, but that's probably a good price.

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"If Saidar had been used, it would have been an even greater disaster"

 

and

 

"If saidar had been used, saidar would also have been tainted"

 

are not the same thing.

If saidar and saidin are both used this time, and both are tainted, but the result is the complete sealing away of the Dark One, that's a victory.

 

The remaining channellers would have to work quickly to make and distribute Elayne's "imperfect" foxheads, and build a network of copies of Far Madding's Guardian, but if they did, there would be no second Breaking.

 

The OP would still exist, ready to be accessed in some future Age.

 

But what is most important is that the Dark One be sealed away, not that some people continue to have the ability to perform magic tricks.

 

I don't think so. Rand already plans to do that this time around but he says to Min that he is missing a crucial element. Also I think Herid Fel said that since the DO's prison was made by the Creator than how could man reseal as perfectly. I think LTT was also blaming himself for believing in his pride that man could equal what the Creator had done.

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from what i can gather there are some things that need to happen.

 

Firstly the prison of the dark one should be made whole. Like how the creator originally designed. Part of the problem was LTT thinking men could do what creator could in their pride. So unless the creator intervenes this time which i believe he won't ( he didnt in AOL) humans would have to rebuilt the dark one's prison. The pattern obviously plays a big part. It has to be fixed at the point where the bore has been drilled.

 

I am starting to wonder how callandor fits into all this.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think something like this will happen:

 

Rand will use his link with Moridin to interact with the Dark One's essence.

Fain will stab Rand and spill his blood.

The evil of Fain and the DO will negate the DO's influence.

Somebody seals the bore....perhaps Logain and two trusted women.

Alivia "kills" Rand by blasting Moridin.

 

 

But does Rand spill his blood on the rocks of Shyol Ghul AND in the Pitt? If so, there has to be another death scene. Maybe his interaction with Fain happens there.

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We are still waiting to see what Callandor is for. They've hinted at it enough that it must do something that other sa'angreals could not do equally well (including the Choedan Kal). What is different about it? The flaw which magnifies the taint unless it is used in a circle led by a woman. Except now there is no taint, so theoretically it should be safe to use, and that flaw may be useful in some way.

 

I hope Fain is not involved - he has already served a grand purpose by confirming to Rand how to remove the taint from Saidin (Rand had already discussed it with Fel who said he had sound reasoning, but the way Fain's knife wound fought Ishamael's stab wound must have removed any doubts Rand had). Having him used to defeat the Dark One as well is too much. Although that does beg the question as to what else Fain is going to do in the series.

 

As someone already mentioned, having three ta'veren instead of one at the Bore may also be the winning move, to reinforce the Pattern's desire to be whole and keep the Dark One sealed away.

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To PheonixUK

 

 

As far as I understand, the flaw is that there is no 'safety' in callandor that prevents a channeller drawing too much too quickly or 'wildly'.

 

I belive cadsuane says this and it is this that contributes to an enhanced taint.

 

This could mean that no matter the power drawn, callandor will not be destroyed. Given that there will be a circle of three, the potential amount of power that the sword could aid them drawing is unknown.

 

I like the Callandor as the new prison idea, though i don't think it's that likely, however, the flaw could be a good reason for the sword being able to 'contain' a lot, lot of something (the darkone say) the only other solid lead for this is that I don't belive the 'who draws it out shall follow after' prophesy has been fulfilled. Rather, this is some future Hero/dragon who shall rerelease the Dark one.

 

In any case, the flaw makes Callendor the most adaptable of Sa'angrels.

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Well, this is the big question, isn't it?

 

Long ago, I was a big proponent of the "three musts be as one" pertaining to Saidin, Saidar, and the TP. Or possibly Fain's power. I think the saying may be true on multiple levels, relating to the powers to be used, the circle of three people wielding Callandor, and possibly the three ta'veren acting as one, and yes, even LTT, Rand, and Moridin.

 

Now, I'm thinking Cyndane has a role to play. After all, she drilled the thing in the first place. Who, besides Beidomon (sp?) would know more?

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Personally, I've always thought the "Three must become one" has always related to Mat, Perrin and Rand himself.

 

Simply because of Mins Viewings of the darkness around them, and the fireflys trying to fight it off.

 

It was (as I remember)only when she saw the three of them together that the light fought off the dark.

 

So I reckon that through their individual ways (Perrin - wolves, Mat - Either BotRH or with Moraine/Thom and Rand with Callandor and two others) those three will have to be at the sealing when it occurs for it to work

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