is Taim Moridin?

[Suttree]

Plus, if he IS Taim he is clearly using the True Power for the disguise (or at least it seems that way to me) which explains why Moridin has the sa'a already, even though hes only had Taims body for a relatively short period of time. I used to be dead sure he was shapechanging with the True Power, now though I just think its a True Power mask of mirror thingy, which is funny because of how hard I opposed that idea before hahahahahaha

 

What can I say? MoM makes more sense. Its the kind of thing a beard could interfere with...

 

Question Drekka, so you are claiming now despite earlier discussions to the contrary that the Taim who showed up in Andor was actually Taim? That Moridin made the switch sometime after that?

 

This just keeps getting more convoluted which doesn't particularly help your argument much.

[OptimusPrime]

Plus, if he IS Taim he is clearly using the True Power for the disguise (or at least it seems that way to me) which explains why Moridin has the sa'a already, even though hes only had Taims body for a relatively short period of time. I used to be dead sure he was shapechanging with the True Power, now though I just think its a True Power mask of mirror thingy, which is funny because of how hard I opposed that idea before hahahahahaha

 

What can I say? MoM makes more sense. Its the kind of thing a beard could interfere with...

 

Question Drekka, so you are claiming now despite earlier discussions to the contrary that the Taim who showed up in Andor was actually Taim? That Moridin made the switch sometime after that?

 

This just keeps getting more convoluted which doesn't particularly help your argument much.

 

No, I am NOT saying Taim was Taim in Andor. We've never seen Taim, only his body used as a vessel, and that scene in Andor at the start of Lord of Chaos has about as many clues in it as the rest of the entire series.

[Suttree]

Plus, if he IS Taim he is clearly using the True Power for the disguise (or at least it seems that way to me) which explains why Moridin has the sa'a already, even though hes only had Taims body for a relatively short period of time. I used to be dead sure he was shapechanging with the True Power, now though I just think its a True Power mask of mirror thingy, which is funny because of how hard I opposed that idea before hahahahahaha

 

What can I say? MoM makes more sense. Its the kind of thing a beard could interfere with...

 

Question Drekka, so you are claiming now despite earlier discussions to the contrary that the Taim who showed up in Andor was actually Taim? That Moridin made the switch sometime after that?

 

This just keeps getting more convoluted which doesn't particularly help your argument much.

 

No, I am NOT saying Taim was Taim in Andor. We've never seen Taim, only his body used as a vessel, and that scene in Andor at the start of Lord of Chaos has about as many clues in it as the rest of the entire series.

 

As I have seen a few versions would you care to quickly summarize your most recent theory on the matter? Cheers.

[Thor]

taim IS MORRIDIN'S BOYFRIEND!

[nessarra]

It is unlikely that Mazrim Taim is one of the Forsaken in disguise. It is more likely that Taim is a Dreadlord and Demandred is one of the new "very powerful" Dedicated that have been raised at the Black Tower in ToM, as mentioned in Chapter 46: Working Leather from the PoV of Androl. Moridin is in too powerful a position among the Forsaken to be dealing directly with the Black Tower, and the task is probably delegated to Demandred. It is apparent that Taim is at least a Darkfriend and, being a channeler, that makes him a Dreadlord. If Mazrim Taim is not working for the Shadow at all, then it is simply the exposure to the taint on saidin that is causing Taim's suspicious actions.

[nessarra]

double posted

[TheAngryDruid]

It is unlikely that Mazrim Taim is one of the Forsaken in disguise. It is more likely that Taim is a Dreadlord and Demandred is one of the new "very powerful" Dedicated that have been raised at the Black Tower in ToM, as mentioned in Chapter 46: Working Leather from the PoV of Androl. Moridin is in too powerful a position among the Forsaken to be dealing directly with the Black Tower, and the task is probably delegated to Demandred. It is apparent that Taim is at least a Darkfriend and, being a channeler, that makes him a Dreadlord. If Mazrim Taim is not working for the Shadow at all, then it is simply the exposure to the taint on saidin that is causing Taim's suspicious actions.

 

Very rational. But I disagree.

 

In the main, Taim being a non-forsaken totally goes against their MO. Too much power concentrated in another person. When we see POV's from Moggy or Graendal they worry about strength and knowledge residing in one person because then that channeler would be a threat. Taim has knowledge, ability, and all those channelers at his disposal.

 

Add this to the 2nd age language and knowledge, the sigil issue, Taim starting to stand and move like a warder even though we know he doesn't use a sword (via the link with Rand), his possession of a dreamspike, the fact that he has the darkness aura that only Ishy and Rand (TP users) display. He'd have to be a dreadlord with permission to use the TP. I don't think so.

 

And while I'll admit I can't answer every single issue validly brought up. Here's a quick attempt.

 

Appearance = TP MoM. I'd just say he's using the TP as a MoM when we first see him in Camelyn. Plus, Moridin and Taim aren't that dissimilar in appearance. Both are tall and have black hair. So he wouldn't have to change that much. Slough a little, and do the Saldaen cheek-bone thing, tilted eyes and eye color, add a few years, and presto, he is there.

 

Not enough time. For the time thing, he's either got something that lets him use a vacuole (already shown from Moggy's POV) and/or he knows some of the Portal Stone worlds where time moves slower to do a lot of his work.

 

As for conflicting orders, we already know two things: Ishy/Moridin has had conflicting views about whether to kill Rand or not (no in EoTW and at the start of Great Hunt, then yes as the finale of Great Hunt, then we aren't sure, then yes at the end of Dragon Reborn). And he keeps going back and forth. And this is BEFORE the effects of crossing the streams manifest themselves. He's been for kiling him, he's been against it. He's been ambivalent. He's been all over the map in his Ishy/Moridin persona, so I don't think that Taim said one thing and Moridin said another is conclusive. Heck, Moridin said one thing and Moridin said another. Secondly, we know he sometimes OK's missions to kill people that he believes won't succeed, as he did with Graendal and Perrin.

 

Again, I think Linda at the 13th makes the argument better than I ever could, the second is the direct one Linda published back in 2001, the first has some new info on the Taim/Moridin issue from the last couple books.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/shadows-influence-on-black-tower.html#taim

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2001/07/trusted-smiler-with-knife-taimmoridin.html

[Suttree]

And while I'll admit I can't answer every single issue validly brought up. Here's a quick attempt.

 

Care to take a stab as to why Moridin as Taim instead of travelling to Caemlyn would allow ignorant savages to harry him across the entire continent to his physical detrimint, in undertaking "a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn"? To as RJ put it be "rode hard and put away wet" in order to reach Rand's amnesty that he does not need?

[nessarra]

Do you really think that Moridin would put up with Aes Sedai badgering him and wanting to bond his men who can channel?

[OptimusPrime]

Plus, if he IS Taim he is clearly using the True Power for the disguise (or at least it seems that way to me) which explains why Moridin has the sa'a already, even though hes only had Taims body for a relatively short period of time. I used to be dead sure he was shapechanging with the True Power, now though I just think its a True Power mask of mirror thingy, which is funny because of how hard I opposed that idea before hahahahahaha

 

What can I say? MoM makes more sense. Its the kind of thing a beard could interfere with...

 

Question Drekka, so you are claiming now despite earlier discussions to the contrary that the Taim who showed up in Andor was actually Taim? That Moridin made the switch sometime after that?

 

This just keeps getting more convoluted which doesn't particularly help your argument much.

 

No, I am NOT saying Taim was Taim in Andor. We've never seen Taim, only his body used as a vessel, and that scene in Andor at the start of Lord of Chaos has about as many clues in it as the rest of the entire series.

 

As I have seen a few versions would you care to quickly summarize your most recent theory on the matter? Cheers.

 

You love every second of this dont you hahaha

 

So Taim as in Taim declares himself as False Dragon, gets captured by the Aes Sedai, they start taking him to the Tower. As we saw in Lord of Chaos, Rand didnt get treat very well, and I doubt Taim did either. Potentially theres your bit about him getting hung out dry or whatever.

 

The Black Ajah aid in him "escaping" and hand him over to someone, my bet is Demandred but theres probably a quote somewhere to go against that. Taim is taken to Shayol Ghul, Ishamael gets reincarnated, spends a bit of time around the Pit getting briefed about whats been going on (ie Rands amnesty)

 

The one thing I cant figure out is when Ishamael then got Bashere on his tail. See, Ishamael already knew by that point that Rand was pretty untrusting, so getting Bashere to chase him-with an army-adds a lot of credence to the disguise, from Rands PoV-or at least thats what Ishamael would think. "Hey Im Taim. Look, Ive even got this guy chasing me for terrorising Saldaea." It adds realism to it.

 

The whole posing as Taim with a different face thing has two benefits, only one of which would have been "the point" in wearing such a disguise. The first is that Moridin is Chosen, and any Chosen posing as someone else would do well to wear a new face, to do otherwise is just stupid. It means Moridin could a) pose as Taim, and b) not pose as Taim, all it would take is time and people would come to know the artificial face as Taim, not the unaltered version. That is to say, that Moridins face is what Taim looked like, and in altering it to pose as Taim, he is slowly but surely making it so people forget what Taim looked like. As Ive said plenty of times, Bashere DID pick up on it right at the very start, and all Ishamael had to do was to get a bit of an emotional reaction from Bashere in order to "validate" that the two men had prior encounters. You've got to remember that Rand is the opponent here, not Bashere; Bashere is merely a tool, or a small hurdle at best, and Ishamael is the master manipulator.

 

But heres the important bit. Remember when Rand "killed" Graendal, had "proven" it to himself... only to be wrong? This is exactly the same thing. While posing the very question to himself "Is this Taim or not, why would BASHERE of all people question it?" Rand uses terrible judgemenet; he gets Taim to channel, and in seeing that, Rand thinks to himself "Okay, I heard Taim can channel, this guy can channel, and hes claiming to be Taim, therefor he must be Taim." When in actual fact, by channeling, to anyone of sound judgement he had just added himself to the confirmed Forsaken suspect list BECAUSE HE CAN CHANNEL. Another massive hint, and the important part about that is that Rands judgement might have seemed sound, but it really really wasnt. He needed Taim, and didnt want to acknowledge the possibility of him being Forsaken, so it was easier to just take the guys word for it. Despite Basheres doubt. Bashere aint daft, Im sure he could recognise a well known Saldaean if that guy had a shave.

 

And the icing on the cake is when Rand thinks to himself "Only a madman would claim that name if it wasnt his." Now I dont know about you, or anyone else, but I think the word madman is used very selectively in this series, in fact there are only three characters that its used in relation to. Rand, Lews Therin and Ishamael. Rand himself gave us a clue, albeit a very subtle one. It means nothing on its own, but as you can clearly see, it isnt on its own, its the same kind of subtle foreshadowing people see in Nynaeve being scared of spiders prior to the whole Moghedien thing.

 

See, we can talk about red on black, about so-called Aiel, about black auras and hand mannrisms with funky timing. But all that is the in-your-face stuff that makes it seem too obvious. The fact of the matter is, from the second the gut shows up, he knows how to handle the entire situation. And I dont mean building the Black Tower, I mean Rand himself. I can understand why people would think Taim is Moridins apprentice, but in my eyes that would mean Moridin taught Taim how to be a manipulator through and through, including how to deal with Rand himself, and I find that very hard to believe. Ishy may have had all the time he needed to make Taim a Dreadlord or whatever, but he would not have had time to teach him how to respond to Rands amnesty. If Taim is Moridin, it explains how Moridin knows Rand is acting according to his plans-which was to say he doesnt trust the people around him; Taim witnessed plenty of that in Rands visits.

 

Taim died before Lord of Chaos, Moridin uses a True Power Mask of Mirrors to pose as Taim despite having the guys real face, and doing it for so long has given him the sa'a already.

 

So many clues, just from one scene. Only a madman would claim that name, if it wasnt his...

[Kahsm]

Wait, are you suggesting he uses a MoM just to hide the sa'a but the face is actually Moridin's, which was close enough to fool Bashere given the manipulation you described? Or is he just using a MoM to get close to Taim but not exactly because it's easier to hold if people get close?

[OptimusPrime]

Im saying, that when Moridin poses as Taim, he looks nothing like Taim.

 

Bashere picked up on it.

 

You know what Moridin looks like? That is what Taim should look like. Except he had facial hair.

 

Hiding the sa'a isnt the point of the disguise. He got the sa'a BECAUSE of using the disguise all the time.

[Kahsm]

Oh, so Ishy was reincarnated into Taim, but he uses a MoM to not look so much like taim.

 

Doesn't Graendal talk about how beautiful Moridin is, something about him being good enough to be one of her pets if it weren't for his nose (presumably hooked, and thus supporting this idea). However, that's very different from the reactions other chicks have of Taim. Not entirely convinced that just looking sour and radiating darkness as Taim would be enough to halt any comment of some super gorgeousness.

[mb]

As far as I recall, no character has seen Taim have saa. Something has to account for this.

 

Another thing: Rand senses saidin From Taim near the end of Path of Daggers. Not sure whether True Power and True Source can be channeled at the same time.

[Songstress]

Doesn't Graendal talk about how beautiful Moridin is, something about him being good enough to be one of her pets if it weren't for his nose (presumably hooked, and thus supporting this idea). However, that's very different from the reactions other chicks have of Taim. Not entirely convinced that just looking sour and radiating darkness as Taim would be enough to halt any comment of some super gorgeousness.

 

ACoS Ch 25, when we are first introduced to Moridin, it's Moghedien who thinks Moridin is almost pretty enough to be one of Graendal's pets - the feature she mentions that is less than perfect is his chin that is too strong, no mention whatsoever of a hooked nose.

 

I just can't see Taim as being Ishamael/Moridin - I think he was most likely trained by Ishy, and is definitely working for the dark side, but actually BEING Moridin? Meh. That possibility doesn't intrigue me the way Taimandred did.

[OptimusPrime]

As far as I recall, no character has seen Taim have saa. Something has to account for this.

 

Something liiiike a disguise? When you look at Taim you are seeing an illusion! Thats the whole point. You cannot use Taim not having a sa'a as a point against him using MoM to alter his appearance. Because, you know, the point is to, sort of, hide the appearance.

 

Another thing: Rand senses saidin From Taim near the end of Path of Daggers. Not sure whether True Power and True Source can be channeled at the same time.

 

That one is fair enough, we've never seen someone do it, unless I am right. But having said that, one can tie off weaves, maybe Moridin ties off the TP weave when he channels saidin, not sure.

 

Doesn't Graendal talk about how beautiful Moridin is, something about him being good enough to be one of her pets if it weren't for his nose (presumably hooked, and thus supporting this idea). However, that's very different from the reactions other chicks have of Taim. Not entirely convinced that just looking sour and radiating darkness as Taim would be enough to halt any comment of some super gorgeousness.

 

ACoS Ch 25, when we are first introduced to Moridin, it's Moghedien who thinks Moridin is almost pretty enough to be one of Graendal's pets - the feature she mentions that is less than perfect is his chin that is too strong, no mention whatsoever of a hooked nose.

 

Ok I know this is confusing so Im going to simplify it.

 

Taim, back when he was alive:

 

-As tall as Moridin, dark hair.

-Strong jaw, but no hooked nose or tilted eyes. Doesnt really look Saldaean.

-Moridin got this body, and had a shave. We now know this appearance as Moridin, but Bashere knew it as Taim.

 

Moridin, posing as Taim with TP MoM:

 

-Clean shaven to avoid pokey bits of hair sticking out of MoM. Has tilted eyes and hooked nose. Now he looks Saldaean.

-Starts moving like Rand after crossing BF streams with Rand, including the Warder grace already mentioned, and hand mannerism in ToM.

-Bashere knew something was off in LoC.

 

Graendal didnt notice the hooked nose on Moridin because he wasnt posing as Taim at the time.

[Suttree]

Ok I know this is confusing so Im going to simplify it.

 

Taim, back when he was alive:

 

-As tall as Moridin, dark hair.

-Strong jaw, but no hooked nose or tilted eyes. Doesnt really look Saldaean.

-Moridin got this body, and had a shave. We now know this appearance as Moridin, but Bashere knew it as Taim.

 

Moridin, posing as Taim with TP MoM:

 

-Clean shaven to avoid pokey bits of hair sticking out of MoM. Has tilted eyes and hooked nose. Now he looks Saldaean.

-Starts moving like Rand after crossing BF streams with Rand, including the Warder grace already mentioned, and hand mannerism in ToM.

-Bashere knew something was off in LoC.

 

Graendal didnt notice the hooked nose on Moridin because he wasnt posing as Taim at the time.

 

Why would Taim when alive not have the characteristics of a Saldean since that is where he is from?

 

Sorry Drekka as I know you have worked hard on this, but you do realize the more complicated you make things in attempting to explain away issue after issue, the less likely this theory is to be true don't you?

 

I never did see it and I have to say I find it less likely now then I did a year ago.

[Lisa Campbell]

I'm sort-of with Drekka on this one, I've always thought there was something fishy about Taim's escape from the Aes Sedai and his emergence onto the scene at Caemlyn. I'm not entirely sure about Moridin being resurrected into Taim's body but there is also this to consider:

 

• 
   
  
• Taim was captured by Aes Sedai when his horse suddenly reared at the apparition of Rand fighting Ishamael in the sky, knocking him out for long enough for Cadsuane to stroll along and pick him up. She loses interest and hands him to the Reds when they show up.
   
  
• Galina was head of the Red Ajah at the time and we know she was high in the ranks of the Black also. It stands to reason that there would have been some Blacks (if not all) among the Aes Sedai sent to capture Taim in Saldea.
   
  
• It is also sus that he escaped from (was released by?) those Aes Sedai after they took charge of him from Cadsuane.
   
  
• We don't know who those Aes Sedai were and as far as I can remember, they are still at large in Randland.
   
  
• Taim fronts up at Caemlyn causing the confusuion with Bashere and Rand as mentioned above by Drekka.
   
  
• Taim is always described as a 'man', not a boy and it is obvious in text that he has channelled long enough to have gained control of the Power without it killing him. He has channelled long enough to be able to work out (or be taught) how to test other potential saidin weilders and teach them control. He shows no signs of madness even after channelling for a number of years.
  

 

My pet theory is that he was 'turned' by those Aes Sedai (with assistance of Myrdraal of course), though I can't explain why he doesn't have empty eyes like we have seen at the Black Tower unless it is just that we have no comparison from before to after or a very subtle Mask of Mirrors weave.

 

Also, Rand has never seen the 'black wires' link to the Dark One attached to Taim, which kind of works against us Drekka, but I think there is sufficient evidence provided in text to support your theory, or make it plausible at the least.

 

In conclusion, there is a link between Moridin and Taim, we just don't have all the answers yet. However, Taim is well set up to be 'The Destroyer of Hope', which in turn points to him being Moridin (Ishamael).

[OptimusPrime]

Ok I know this is confusing so Im going to simplify it.

 

Taim, back when he was alive:

 

-As tall as Moridin, dark hair.

-Strong jaw, but no hooked nose or tilted eyes. Doesnt really look Saldaean.

-Moridin got this body, and had a shave. We now know this appearance as Moridin, but Bashere knew it as Taim.

 

Moridin, posing as Taim with TP MoM:

 

-Clean shaven to avoid pokey bits of hair sticking out of MoM. Has tilted eyes and hooked nose. Now he looks Saldaean.

-Starts moving like Rand after crossing BF streams with Rand, including the Warder grace already mentioned, and hand mannerism in ToM.

-Bashere knew something was off in LoC.

 

Graendal didnt notice the hooked nose on Moridin because he wasnt posing as Taim at the time.

 

Why would Taim when alive not have the characteristics of a Saldean since that is where he is from?

 

Sorry Drekka as I know you have worked hard on this, but you do realize the more complicated you make things in attempting to explain away issue after issue, the less likely this theory is to be true don't you?

 

I never did see it and I have to say I find it less likely now then I did a year ago.

 

I havent "worked hard" on it, just rambled hahaha. It hasnt got any more complicated than it was a year ago, it was always that complicated.

 

Its cool bro. If Im wrong you can gloat :D

[zfnorth]

It makes more sense to me that Taim is being taught and supported by one of the Forsaken, but is not actually one himself. Perhaps he is being groomed for the position. Kinda like the DO's intern. "We'll see how you do as a Dreadlord in this Last Battle business, then we'll talk."

 

I think Demandred is training him. It goes well Demandred gathering the army. Maybe Logain and Mat are going to fight him on two fronts?

[Mr Ares]

Also, Rand has never seen the 'black wires' link to the Dark One attached to Taim, which kind of works against us Drekka, but I think there is sufficient evidence provided in text to support your theory, or make it plausible at the least.

Absence of black wires is the very least of the problems with this theory. After all, Rand didn't see black wires around most of the Chosen (including Osan'gar, who was hanging around in close proximity for a while). It would appear they are only visible under certain circumstances. That said, even leaving aside black wires there is still a mountain of evidence against Taimidin, and it still thorws up more questions than it answers.

 

In conclusion, there is a link between Moridin and Taim, we just don't have all the answers yet. However, Taim is well set up to be 'The Destroyer of Hope', which in turn points to him being Moridin (Ishamael).

Him being the Destroyer of Hope would point to him being Sammael - Ishamael was the Betrayer of Hope.

[Kahsm]

Taim's visible hate whenever Rand put him down, RJ's comment on Taim's "I need all the attention" personality. None of this points to him being a patsy for a forsaken. MAYBE 13x13ed... though assuming we've recently seen 13x13ed Asha'men he doesn't fit that either.

 

I mean, for Taim to act as a frosaken minion while being so pompous, as RJ suggested, he'd be acting more like Moridin's mind trapped pets, always sulky and half-heartedly going about their tasks when they think no one's looking... actually that might fit. Mind trapped?

[OptimusPrime]

Mind trapped?

 

If Taim is Taim Id expect something like that. Theres just too much weird stuff involving him, thats why I think its something as big as him being Moridin.

 

I wonder if a mind trap could be used for possession... maybe Taim is Taim but Moridin sometimes possesses him?

 

My bro once said he thought they were bonded.

[freddysociety]

Not really buying it.

 

Moridin is really Ishamael, right? Then how and why would Ishamael run around in the Boarderlands as a false dragon, and eventualy get captured? Sure, he got loose again, but don't see how Ishamael can have time for that.

[OptimusPrime]

Not really buying it.

 

Moridin is really Ishamael, right? Then how and why would Ishamael run around in the Boarderlands as a false dragon, and eventualy get captured? Sure, he got loose again, but don't see how Ishamael can have time for that.

 

Read more of the thread dude, nobody said Moridin was the False Dragon.

 

That being said, if you dont buy it its cool. But you SHOULD buy it, its cheap as chips!