is Taim Moridin?

[damandred]

Just read RJ s quotes on taim/demandred. Suppose. That's that

[capuga]

Don't feel bad, it was a widespread theory.

 

As to Taim, I've never thought it was a mystery. I believe Mazrim Taim is Mazrim Taim. Likely a darkfriend that has some Forsaken (probably Ishy) training.

 

Who and where Demmy is is definitely one of the series biggest unresolved mysteries though. Looks like Roedran is most likely at this point but I'm not completely sold.

[OptimusPrime]

Perrin was smelling Rand there, not Taim, I think. The rage was a LTT-episode, I believe. One of those indications we had that Rand was actually going mad.

 

I remember one time Perrin could smell that Taim was amused at Rands paranoia of Aes Sedai, not sure if it was that same scene but I cant remember them three being together more than once

 

Just read RJ s quotes on taim/demandred. Suppose. That's that

 

So now you're ripe for a Taim=Moridin conversion?

[damandred]

Not really while ishy was getting a hole put througth his chest by callandor, wasn't Taim still a AS prisoner?

[OptimusPrime]

Not really while ishy was getting a hole put througth his chest by callandor, wasn't Taim still a AS prisoner?

 

He was yea, but then, every recycled Forsakens new body belonged to someone before they took it. Taim the False Dragon was a real person. Not anymore. I contend that Moridin has Taims body. Its not entirely necessary for Taim to be Moridin, but I think its the case. Demandred or whoever took Taims body, dead or alive, to Shayol Ghul, Taim got removed, and Ishamael got put in. Theres not a single part of me that thinks we've seen the actual Mazrim Taim onscreen, not any more. I used to think he might have been swapped in LoC, but even the introduction of "Taim" is full of oddities. Its Moridin from the second we see him I reckon

[damandred]

Mmmm seems a little far fetched to me. But its poss I suppose not sold on the idea though (soz)

[OptimusPrime]

Im heartbroken

 

:P

[yoniy0]

Why would Moridin wear his 'wanderer' illusion in his dreams when he wasn't expecting Rand to show up? Why wouldn't Rand see his real face in KoD's News for the Dragon? Or is it the other way around, Moridin has Taim's old body but he disguises it when he imitates Taim? It just doesn't make sense.

[OptimusPrime]

Hehe. The thing that makes this hard to explain is I have to use the name Taim in two contexts in the same explanation.

 

The way I see it, the face we know as Moridin is what Mazrim Taim used to look like. So Moridin could wander about in T'A'R without the mask, as in with the original Taim face, and Rand would recognise him as the guy he crossed balefires with, Ishamael reincarnated.

 

Then Moridin wants to actually pose as Taim, so he puts the hooked nose etc on, goes to the Black Tower. With, essentially, a pretend face, styling himself as the M'Hael.

 

In other words, Moridin only has Taims original appearance when he ISNT posing as Taim. And the reason is because, naturally, any Forsaken posing as someone else wants to hide their "real" face, be it their original body or not, in case anything bad happens.

[yoniy0]

And as I said above, that makes absolutely no sense to me. If one wishes to pose as Mazrim Taim, and just happen to be wearing Taim's own body and face, then masking that role is counterproductive.

[damandred]

Plus wouldn't bashere who fought Taim in saldaea to click on to the fact that Taim was not Taim

[OptimusPrime]

And as I said above, that makes absolutely no sense to me. If one wishes to pose as Mazrim Taim, and just happen to be wearing Taim's own body and face, then masking that role is counterproductive.

 

Have to agree to disagree with that. Moridin changing the Taim face makes perfect sense IMO. I get what you're saying, you're on about if he was spotted by someone who knew Taims original face. Bashere already was doubtful right at the beginning, but Taim referenced something that went on in the past between the two men which basically convinced Rand, which is all that was necessary.

 

Plus wouldn't bashere who fought Taim in saldaea to click on to the fact that Taim was not Taim

 

Bashere did! Nobody acknowledges it ever! I will find you the quote in a minute. But people refuse to acknowledge it because it was very brief and only a single comment. Its in the scene where Taim presents himself, and in that same scene Rand uses some seriously crap logic to figure out it IS Taim.

 

This is all covered ground in this thread but what the heck, its fun :P

 

Give me a few mins

[mb]

Moridin seems to use only the True Power; and never saidin.

Taim seems to use just saidin. Rand never got an indication of Taim using the True Power.

 

Even if Moridin ever uses saidin, True Power saa I take cannot be disguised. Moridin's eavesdropping on Sammael & Graendal seems to be an indicator of this.

[OptimusPrime]

Lord of Chaos paperback Chapter 2 page 94.

 

Blah blah blah they bring him in, Rand ponders a moment, Lews Therin rambles a bit.

 

Bashere took advantage of the silence. "You say you're Marim Taim?" He sounded doubtful, and Rand looked at him in confusion. Was this Taim or not? Only a madman would claim that name if it wasnt his.

 

The first spoken words after his arrival are a challenge of his identity by the only person that we know who knew Taim and has seen him onscreen.

 

Where the heck is Cadsuane when you need her? She dealt with Taim.

 

Bashere DID challenge him! Why? Based on his appearance. Taim says he had a shave, and winds Bashere up with two things. He says, on p95 at the top, "What does everyone not know, that you and Mazrim Taim will?" Referring to himself in 3rd person when his identity being questioned is WAAAAAAAY sarcastic. And its bloody hilarious! The second thing to wind Bashere up is when he recounts to Bashere in front of everyone about something he did to Basheres loved ones or something, and THEN Bashere growls "Taim" and goes for him, but Rand stops him.

 

Ive got to say, this is probably my favorite scene in the entire series. Way better than VoG

[OptimusPrime]

Moridin seems to use only the True Power; and never saidin.

Taim seems to use just saidin. Rand never felt the True Power from Taim.

 

Even if Moridin uses saidin, the saa I take cannot be disguised. Moridin's eavesdropping on Sammael & Graendal seems to be an indicator of this.

 

Didnt see this, sorry mb.

 

Have you read Towers of Midnight?

 

Rand didnt sense Moridin use the True Power at Shadar Logoth dude. True Power users cant sense when another channels it, they can only see the weaves.

[mb]

Pre-ordered the paperback a number of months ago. According to seller, it would ship on October 4.

 

Edit:: Changed second line in previous post.

Another edit: Made several more changes in previous post.

[damandred]

That's something to ponder maybe your right. I defo think Taim is one of the forsaken the LoC comment at the end of KoD suggests that. BUT if moridin is Nae'Bliss he would surely have known who Darshiva was, would he not want another forsaken close to rand when he can command that forsaken. But Taim seemed against it.plus I cannot remember any description of moridin having a Hooked nose (I maybe wrong on that no books with me so can't check,if there is I'm sold if not ?)

[OptimusPrime]

That's something to ponder maybe your right. I defo think Taim is one of the forsaken the LoC comment at the end of KoD suggests that. BUT if moridin is Nae'Bliss he would surely have known who Darshiva was, would he not want another forsaken close to rand when he can command that forsaken. But Taim seemed against it.

 

How do we know Taim DIDNT know who Dashiva was? When Rand picked Dashiva at random, Taim tries to disuade him. That IMO is because its Moridin, not wanting Osan'gar to get stuck with Rand, because he wants Osan'gar onsite. The only reason Taim/Moridin/whoever wanted an Ashaman with Rand was to spy on him I reckon, and thats precisely why he DIDNT want Dashiva to go with him. It doesnt take a Chosen to spy on Rand, any lesser Darkfriend could do that.

 

plus I cannot remember any description of moridin having a Hooked nose (I maybe wrong on that no books with me so can't check,if there is I'm sold if not ?)

 

No no! Thats the thing. Moridin doesnt have the hooked nose he puts that on to pose as Taim! And Taim probably didnt have a hooked nose which is what made Bashere question! Obviously it might not be the nose but you get the point. The hooked nosed face isnt Moridins face, its his True Power makeover

[damandred]

Ah but the point is the hooked nose and high cheek bones is a national charactoristic of saldaea. That is why (if your thoery is correct) moridin would add them in his illusion of Taim, but Taim was of saldaea so if the dream moridin was Taim' real body wouldn't he have those same features?. The darshiva thing, wouldn't he be more use close to rand instead of just posing of a Asha'man and he would have to do as Taim/moridin said (we have seen what has happened to chosen who disobeyed).

[yoniy0]

Way better than VoG

Of course it is, VoG was lame

 

Since we're restating things already contained in this thread, you know it's not that we forget about Bashere's first onscreen-reaction to Taim. We just choose to focus on the fact that he got over it. I might be persuaded by the claim of a rough couple of months and a shave if the face seems more ragged than I remember, but a different shape of the nose? I think not.

 

I do, however, agree that the idea of Taim using TP has merit. Brandon definitely hinted so.

[damandred]

Please forgive my ignorance but what does Vog refer to?

[yoniy0]

Veins of Gold, chapter 50 of The Gathering Storm.

[damandred]

Just had a thought. Maybe Taim is Taim but under demandreds compulsion and demd rules the BT through his tool Taim. That would acount for demds "my rule is secure" quote. None of the other thoeries on were demd is hold much water for me.

[damandred]

Thanks yonly stupid of me not to have caught on to that

[Suttree]

Lord of Chaos paperback Chapter 2 page 94.

 

Blah blah blah they bring him in, Rand ponders a moment, Lews Therin rambles a bit.

 

Bashere took advantage of the silence. "You say you're Marim Taim?" He sounded doubtful, and Rand looked at him in confusion. Was this Taim or not? Only a madman would claim that name if it wasnt his.

 

The first spoken words after his arrival are a challenge of his identity by the only person that we know who knew Taim and has seen him onscreen.

 

Where the heck is Cadsuane when you need her? She dealt with Taim.

 

Bashere DID challenge him! Why? Based on his appearance. Taim says he had a shave, and winds Bashere up with two things. He says, on p95 at the top, "What does everyone not know, that you and Mazrim Taim will?" Referring to himself in 3rd person when his identity being questioned is WAAAAAAAY sarcastic. And its bloody hilarious! The second thing to wind Bashere up is when he recounts to Bashere in front of everyone about something he did to Basheres loved ones or something, and THEN Bashere growls "Taim" and goes for him, but Rand stops him.

 

Ive got to say, this is probably my favorite scene in the entire series. Way better than VoG

 

 

and then shortly after Bashere was content to admit that it is Taim so the quote provided isn't worth much.

 

You have been working on this for sometime Drekka. Ever come up for an answer for why Moridin as Taim would risk his life and allow himself to be harried across half a continent by ignorant savages..."rode hard and put away wet" instead of just travelling to caemlyn?