Elayne and Ter'Angreal

[Mandro]

Is it because most of the Ter'angreal (forgive the spelling) that the AS possess are from the time of the AOL and shortly after? Is it because the Seanchean only use women to build Terangreal? Could Elayne actually understand all of her half functional Terangreals are flawed not because she is, but because she isn't working with a man?

 

Of course this goes into my basic theory, that to answer all of these questions you need more books, a published outline, or a GIGANTIC epilogue.

[blazetheearth]

She might realize it if she ever actually bothers to research the subject. But we've seen over and over that she doesn't think that anyone can teach/tell her anything about ter'angreal (except for Avi), so I doubt that she will ever bother to research it. And the ironic thing is that she has at her disposal the largest collection of AoL documents anywhere in Randland, but has completely ignored them ever since she found out that she had them.

[Mandro]

She might realize it if she ever actually bothers to research the subject. But we've seen over and over that she doesn't think that anyone can teach/tell her anything about ter'angreal (except for Avi), so I doubt that she will ever bother to research it. And the ironic thing is that she has at her disposal the largest collection of AoL documents anywhere in Randland, but has completely ignored them ever since she found out that she had them.

 

I'm starting to get mad about word not bleeding back to Satella about flynn or Nynaeves ability to heal.

[blazetheearth]

She might realize it if she ever actually bothers to research the subject. But we've seen over and over that she doesn't think that anyone can teach/tell her anything about ter'angreal (except for Avi), so I doubt that she will ever bother to research it. And the ironic thing is that she has at her disposal the largest collection of AoL documents anywhere in Randland, but has completely ignored them ever since she found out that she had them.

 

I'm starting to get mad about word not bleeding back to Satella about flynn or Nynaeves ability to heal.

 

Weellllll...That might turn out differently than a lot of people expect.

 

I don't think they will be able to heal Setalle. IIRC, RJ said there is a difference between being severed (stilled/gentled) and being burned out.

 

Netherlands tour - 8 April, 2001 - Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting:

 

KuraFire: Can burned out channelers still sense the Source?

RJ: Ah, burned out? No. The difference between being burned out and being stilled.. We use the term as if it is interchangeable, but they aren't. Technically "stilled" means something that is being done to you deliberately. "Burned out" is an injury that you received accidentally.

 

Kurafire: Is it the difference between a clean cut and a cauterized wound?

RJ: Yes, and if you're burned out, you cannot sense the Source.

 

Also, when Siuan and Leane are stilled, they can sense emotions through the a'dam, though they cannot actually use it, while Setalle Anan shows no reaction to wearing the bracelet at all; though it's in Mat's point of view, it still seems unlikely that she would not react in some way to being able to feel Joline through the a'dam.

 

That difference, as well as the RJ quote above, make me think that while severing can be Healed, being burned out can't be. I think that Setalle will get her hopes up and then have them shattered when neither of the Healers are able to return the OP to her. It sucks, because I would rather have her restored than any of the AS that Flynn Healed, but that's the way I foresee it going.

[Finnssss22]

Is it because most of the Ter'angreal (forgive the spelling) that the AS possess are from the time of the AOL and shortly after? Is it because the Seanchean only use women to build Terangreal? Could Elayne actually understand all of her half functional Terangreals are flawed not because she is, but because she isn't working with a man?

 

Of course this goes into my basic theory, that to answer all of these questions you need more books, a published outline, or a GIGANTIC epilogue.

 

She had A LOT longer than just a few days to study and try to copy the other T'a.

Her first attempts at recreating the dream T'a weren't perfect either, leaving the user misty and some were actual failures.

[quick ben]

She might realize it if she ever actually bothers to research the subject. But we've seen over and over that she doesn't think that anyone can teach/tell her anything about ter'angreal (except for Avi), so I doubt that she will ever bother to research it. And the ironic thing is that she has at her disposal the largest collection of AoL documents anywhere in Randland, but has completely ignored them ever since she found out that she had them.

 

I'm starting to get mad about word not bleeding back to Satella about flynn or Nynaeves ability to heal.

 

+1..

 

But i do continue to wonder what she did for them to still her..?

I know that a couple women are mentioned in the books around stilling but i can't for life of me remember if she is mentioned.

Does anyone know anything or made any links..?

[akira.taylor]

She might realize it if she ever actually bothers to research the subject. But we've seen over and over that she doesn't think that anyone can teach/tell her anything about ter'angreal (except for Avi), so I doubt that she will ever bother to research it. And the ironic thing is that she has at her disposal the largest collection of AoL documents anywhere in Randland, but has completely ignored them ever since she found out that she had them.

 

I'm starting to get mad about word not bleeding back to Satella about flynn or Nynaeves ability to heal.

 

+1..

 

But i do continue to wonder what she did for them to still her..?

I know that a couple women are mentioned in the books around stilling but i can't for life of me remember if she is mentioned.

Does anyone know anything or made any links..?

 

The general assumption is that Setale Anan was the last Aes Sedai to make a study of ter'angreal, and was burned out as a result of doing something she shouldn't have. So, no crime was committed (and I think that the Aes Sedai would have kept her around, or at least kept track of her, if she had been judicially stilled).

[blazetheearth]

She might realize it if she ever actually bothers to research the subject. But we've seen over and over that she doesn't think that anyone can teach/tell her anything about ter'angreal (except for Avi), so I doubt that she will ever bother to research it. And the ironic thing is that she has at her disposal the largest collection of AoL documents anywhere in Randland, but has completely ignored them ever since she found out that she had them.

 

I'm starting to get mad about word not bleeding back to Satella about flynn or Nynaeves ability to heal.

 

+1..

 

But i do continue to wonder what she did for them to still her..?

I know that a couple women are mentioned in the books around stilling but i can't for life of me remember if she is mentioned.

Does anyone know anything or made any links..?

 

The general assumption is that Setale Anan was the last Aes Sedai to make a study of ter'angreal, and was burned out as a result of doing something she shouldn't have. So, no crime was committed (and I think that the Aes Sedai would have kept her around, or at least kept track of her, if she had been judicially stilled).

 

Agreed. Here's a link to the WOTFAQ section on Setalle Anan, and it explains what can be pieced together of her past. I don't think that it includes her discussion with Mat when he shows her his ter'angreal, that conversation doesn't really add anything except a cute story about how she met her husband. I think that was in KoD.

[Morsker]

Is it because most of the Ter'angreal (forgive the spelling) that the AS possess are from the time of the AOL and shortly after? Is it because the Seanchean only use women to build Terangreal? Could Elayne actually understand all of her half functional Terangreals are flawed not because she is, but because she isn't working with a man?

I've seen several people blame Elayne's lack of success on not cooperating with a man, especially her inability to produce certain "colors" in the dream ter'angreal. The contrast to the a'dam is interesting. Almost everything involving the Power works better when men and women cooperate, but the a'dam may be something where saidin is not only useless, but counterproductive. The "linking" section of the glossary tells us women can only be forced into all-female circles.

[restausn]

I fully agree with the above.. Men and women together. If Elayne studies the Ter' angreal in a circle with a man, what could she accomplish then?.. Look what Niald and the wise ones were able to do with Perrin's hammer?

I also agree that she makes a better a'dam. the Seanchen model was made by a woman only

[wvlr2]

I also agree that she makes a better a'dam. the Seanchen model was made by a woman only

 

I want her to make/mass produce a reversed A'dam, where the collar is the boss & the braclet is the slave. Then inject those into the Seanchan supply system. Prefurable while grabbing all the old style out of supply.

 

 

Back to the original thread. I absolutely agree, she needs to link up with a male channeler.

 

Also, can't wait until Setalle is healed.

 

I believe that Egwene mentions in one of her POVs that it is much more difficult to force Novices & Accepted to learn slowly and cautiously because they now know that if they are burned out that they can be healed (however imperfectly). Not sure which book it was TGS or ToM. Maybe even KoD. The trouble is that her thought bubble did not go so far to say that it had actually occured or if it was just a Saladar AS assumption.

[herid]

I also agree that she makes a better a'dam. the Seanchen model was made by a woman only

 

I want her to make/mass produce a reversed A'dam, where the collar is the boss & the braclet is the slave. Then inject those into the Seanchan supply system. Prefurable while grabbing all the old style out of supply.

 

 

Back to the original thread. I absolutely agree, she needs to link up with a male channeler.

 

Also, can't wait until Setalle is healed.

 

 

Setalle won't be healed. She was burned out, not stilled. RJ said that the result is different and he heavily hinted that such people can not be healed.

 

On the subject of Elayne's troubles with recreating ter'angreal. A'dam seems to be a special case, somehow much easier to recreate than any other ter'angreal. RJ said it's the only kind Seanchan can make. And they can produce a'dam in large quantities too. Given that Elayne's talent seems to be quite rare this would be very difficult to accomplish unless the a'dam were much easier to make than most other ter'angreal.

[Ananta]

As others have said, I don't think burning out can be healed.

 

Stilling can be healed because it's done with OP by others, on purpose. So healing it is just a matter of breaking the weave made by the people who stilled the person. Stilling is like shielding someone, permanently (until healed).

 

While burn out is more of a permanent thing. It's not like a shield as stilling is. Unless it turns out that burn out is in fact unconsciously self-created shielding, I don't believe that it can be healed.

[kraefzke]

As others have said, I don't think burning out can be healed.

 

Stilling can be healed because it's done with OP by others, on purpose. So healing it is just a matter of breaking the weave made by the people who stilled the person. Stilling is like shielding someone, permanently (until healed).

 

While burn out is more of a permanent thing. It's not like a shield as stilling is. Unless it turns out that burn out is in fact unconsciously self-created shielding, I don't believe that it can be healed.

 

I think you got that seriously wrong: Stilling is definitely not the same as shielding! While the weaves are similar, the weave for stilling has a "sharp edge" that permanently severes the connection to the TS (as opposed to shielding, where the connection is only severed for as long as the shield holds). However, despite the similarity, that link is definitely broken and healing that break is not simply undoing the stilling-weave, as by the time healing occurs, the weave is long gone anyway (why maintain a shield on someone who can't touch the source anymore).

 

That means stilling is just as permanent as burning out. Please note that I don't imply that the two are exactly the same thing. There might very well be differences, as we see when Setalle puts on the adam. However, my guess is that both can be healed.

 

I do see a different problem in Setalle's case though: Her burning out was many years ago. Logain, Siuan and co were healed after a matter of months, if not less (haven't got the exact timeline in my head). I think there might be something like a "scarring" that interferes with healing (the same as why Thom can't get his stiff leg healed anymore).

[fikkie77]

Many of things that were once said to be impossible, are possible now (skimming, travelling, healing the severed, healing the mad, making ter'angreal). Healing the severed isn't the same as healing the burnt out, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible at all. Whether it happens we shall see in a year.

[Ashandarei]

I do see a different problem in Setalle's case though: Her burning out was many years ago. Logain, Siuan and co were healed after a matter of months, if not less (haven't got the exact timeline in my head). I think there might be something like a "scarring" that interferes with healing (the same as why Thom can't get his stiff leg healed anymore).

You have a good point with the scarring but it doesn't have much to do with how long it's been as much as how it happened, burned out or stilled. Check the RJ quote below.

 

Many of things that were once said to be impossible, are possible now (skimming, travelling, healing the severed, healing the mad, making ter'angreal). Healing the severed isn't the same as healing the burnt out, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible at all. Whether it happens we shall see in a year.

Ishadar made this argument in the Elayne and Ter'angreal thread and I agree with him. Stilling is healable while I don't think burning out will be for the following three reasons:

 

KuraFire: Can burned out channelers still sense the Source?

RJ: Ah, burned out? No. The difference between being burned out and being stilled.. We use the term as if it is interchangeable, but they aren't. Technically "stilled" means something that is being done to you deliberately. "Burned out" is an injury that you received accidentally.

Kurafire: Is it the difference between a clean cut and a cauterized wound?

RJ: Yes, and if you're burned out, you cannot sense the Source.

Quote Link

 

1) Stilled channelers can still sense the source while burned out ones can't.

2) Cauterized wounds don't heal.

 

In Winter's Heart- Chapter 29: Another Plan, when Setalle puts the a'dam on Joline and it doesn't work, Setalle doesn't say that she can feel any emotions from Joline, and considering that they're testing that very device/bond, it would seem rather implausible that she wouldn't mention a sudden ball of emotions in her head. In contrast Siuan, when stilled, does feels the ball of emotions when she puts on the a'dam with Marigan/Mog. collared(don't have the exact reference book/chapter for that).

 

3) So it's fairly safe to say, burned out channelers can't sense emotions through the a'dam.

[Mandro]

I also agree that she makes a better a'dam. the Seanchen model was made by a woman only

 

I want her to make/mass produce a reversed A'dam, where the collar is the boss & the braclet is the slave. Then inject those into the Seanchan supply system. Prefurable while grabbing all the old style out of supply.

 

 

Back to the original thread. I absolutely agree, she needs to link up with a male channeler.

 

Also, can't wait until Setalle is healed.

 

 

Setalle won't be healed. She was burned out, not stilled. RJ said that the result is different and he heavily hinted that such people can not be healed.

 

On the subject of Elayne's troubles with recreating ter'angreal. A'dam seems to be a special case, somehow much easier to recreate than any other ter'angreal. RJ said it's the only kind Seanchan can make. And they can produce a'dam in large quantities too. Given that Elayne's talent seems to be quite rare this would be very difficult to accomplish unless the a'dam were much easier to make than most other ter'angreal.

 

Only kind the seaanchan can make? As opposed to the rings worn by the blood knives? and as yet unknown Terangreals the seanchean use? Every writer has the option of changing their mind, because it's their world.

[Mandro]

As others have said, I don't think burning out can be healed.

 

Stilling can be healed because it's done with OP by others, on purpose. So healing it is just a matter of breaking the weave made by the people who stilled the person. Stilling is like shielding someone, permanently (until healed).

 

While burn out is more of a permanent thing. It's not like a shield as stilling is. Unless it turns out that burn out is in fact unconsciously self-created shielding, I don't believe that it can be healed.

 

burning out isn't done with the one power? What? In my opinion being "burnt out" shoould be MORE healable than a deliberate act of aggression. Just because the result is the same but in a different way doesn't change the situation. I think setalle (because elayne is too close to birth to be able to fight) might be healed soon, and help eleany in creating some vital tools of the power, maybe ter, maybe sa, maybe just angreal, based on her ability to explain after hundreds of years of experience to a gifted pupil.

[Mandro]

I do see a different problem in Setalle's case though: Her burning out was many years ago. Logain, Siuan and co were healed after a matter of months, if not less (haven't got the exact timeline in my head). I think there might be something like a "scarring" that interferes with healing (the same as why Thom can't get his stiff leg healed anymore).

You have a good point with the scarring but it doesn't have much to do with how long it's been as much as how it happened, burned out or stilled. Check the RJ quote below.

 

Many of things that were once said to be impossible, are possible now (skimming, travelling, healing the severed, healing the mad, making ter'angreal). Healing the severed isn't the same as healing the burnt out, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible at all. Whether it happens we shall see in a year.

Ishadar made this argument in the Elayne and Ter'angreal thread and I agree with him. Stilling is healable while I don't think burning out will be for the following three reasons:

 

KuraFire: Can burned out channelers still sense the Source?

RJ: Ah, burned out? No. The difference between being burned out and being stilled.. We use the term as if it is interchangeable, but they aren't. Technically "stilled" means something that is being done to you deliberately. "Burned out" is an injury that you received accidentally.

Kurafire: Is it the difference between a clean cut and a cauterized wound?

RJ: Yes, and if you're burned out, you cannot sense the Source.

Quote Link

 

1) Stilled channelers can still sense the source while burned out ones can't.

2) Cauterized wounds don't heal.

 

In Winter's Heart- Chapter 29: Another Plan, when Setalle puts the a'dam on Joline and it doesn't work, Setalle doesn't say that she can feel any emotions from Joline, and considering that they're testing that very device/bond, it would seem rather implausible that she wouldn't mention a sudden ball of emotions in her head. In contrast Siuan, when stilled, does feels the ball of emotions when she puts on the a'dam with Marigan/Mog. collared(don't have the exact reference book/chapter for that).

 

3) So it's fairly safe to say, burned out channelers can't sense emotions through the a'dam.

 

AS can heal arrow wound, or broken bones recieved from a thrown horse. Are those deliberatate acts? or accidents? I don't like that logic.

[blazetheearth]

It's not about accidental or deliberate.

 

While stilling/gentling are deliberate acts, the fact that they are deliberate is irrelevant to the issue. If we look at Nyn's description of Logain just before she heals him,

 

He was healthy as a bull and almost as strong, nothing wrong with him in the slightest — except for the hole.

It was not really a hole, more a feeling that what seemed continuous was not, that what seemed smooth and straight was really skirting around an absence. She knew that sensation well, from the early days, back when she thought she might really learn something. It still made her skin crawl.

 

and

 

That emptiness, so small she could pass right over it, was vast once she slipped the flows inside, immense enough to swallow them all. ...Vast emptiness; nothingness. What about what she had found in Siuan and Leane, the feel of something cut? She was sure it was real, however faint. Men and women might be different, but maybe . . . There it was. Something cut. Just an impression, but the same as in Siuan and Leane. ... Something about that cut . . . If it was bridged with Fire and Spirit, so . . .

 

 

Now think of a normal drinking straw. If you cut it with a pair of scissors then you have 2 clean ends that can be placed back together and secured with a piece of tape to be good as new. Now take an identical straw and holding it laterally place a match under it so that it burn apart. Now you have 2 pieces of straw with melted ends that cannot be put back together because the process that separated them melted the straw itself.

 

 

That is how I see the difference between stilling and 'burning out'. One is a clean cut which allow the conduit to be bridged (or taped up) while the other destroys the ends (like melting them) so that they could not be pieced back together. I hope that analogy helps explain why I don't think that Setalle will be healed.

[herid]

 

 

On the subject of Elayne's troubles with recreating ter'angreal. A'dam seems to be a special case, somehow much easier to recreate than any other ter'angreal. RJ said it's the only kind Seanchan can make. And they can produce a'dam in large quantities too. Given that Elayne's talent seems to be quite rare this would be very difficult to accomplish unless the a'dam were much easier to make than most other ter'angreal.

 

Only kind the seaanchan can make? As opposed to the rings worn by the blood knives? and as yet unknown Terangreals the seanchean use? Every writer has the option of changing their mind, because it's their world.

 

Q. Mr. Jordan stated that the Seanchan only know how to make one kind of ter'angreal. Then there are the Bloodknives' rings. Is this a departure from Jordan's notes, or a discrepancy in a past answer?

A. Neither. The Seanchan only know how to make a'dam.

https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_79cz3vmjhc

[haloun]

i believe the reason why she cant make good terangreal is because they are made with both halves, the when she figures this out she can then recreate them properly and have no problems. the AOL was when men and women worked together, the adam were made after, long after, and were made only by women.

[kraefzke]

Now think of a normal drinking straw. If you cut it with a pair of scissors then you have 2 clean ends that can be placed back together and secured with a piece of tape to be good as new. Now take an identical straw and holding it laterally place a match under it so that it burn apart. Now you have 2 pieces of straw with melted ends that cannot be put back together because the process that separated them melted the straw itself.

 

 

That is how I see the difference between stilling and 'burning out'. One is a clean cut which allow the conduit to be bridged (or taped up) while the other destroys the ends (like melting them) so that they could not be pieced back together. I hope that analogy helps explain why I don't think that Setalle will be healed.

 

I really like that analogy! It's just that in my picture, there is no drinking straw, but a copper wire. So cut ends definitely look different than melt ones (which is why Setalle doesn't feel anything through the a'dam) but both can be bridged. I might well be wrong, and it might be that nobody even tries to heal Setalle, so we never find out (unless Brandon tells us). Let's just hope for clarification sometime.

[Mystraka]

Now think of a normal drinking straw. If you cut it with a pair of scissors then you have 2 clean ends that can be placed back together and secured with a piece of tape to be good as new. Now take an identical straw and holding it laterally place a match under it so that it burn apart. Now you have 2 pieces of straw with melted ends that cannot be put back together because the process that separated them melted the straw itself.

 

 

That is how I see the difference between stilling and 'burning out'. One is a clean cut which allow the conduit to be bridged (or taped up) while the other destroys the ends (like melting them) so that they could not be pieced back together. I hope that analogy helps explain why I don't think that Setalle will be healed.

 

I really like that analogy! It's just that in my picture, there is no drinking straw, but a copper wire. So cut ends definitely look different than melt ones (which is why Setalle doesn't feel anything through the a'dam) but both can be bridged. I might well be wrong, and it might be that nobody even tries to heal Setalle, so we never find out (unless Brandon tells us). Let's just hope for clarification sometime.

 

 

The difference between Stilling and Burning Out:

 

Stilling is a clean cut along the conduit between the person and the source (this leaves the conduit intact, just seperated, or severed if you will)

 

Burning Out is when so much of the power flows through the conduit as to destroy it entirely. (you wouldnt have to pieces of copper wire to re-fuse together, you would have (if anything) a small puddle of copper slag.

 

Don't mistake burning out to be as humane as being severed(stilled).

 

TL;DR = Stilling = severed conduit

Burn out= Destroyed conduit

 

Setalle doesnt feel anything to do with the power, because her ability to do so was DESTROYED

[wvlr2]

Rand deliberately burned out several women at Dumi Wells. He did not "cut" their links, he "crushed" them. But Flyn was able to heal them.

 

 

Also Egwene clearly thinks in one of her POVs (TGS or TOM) that now that Novices and Accepted KNOW that burning out can be healed, it is hard to keep them from "over doing their training". Not an exact quote but something like that.