Discuss Demandred

[Crael123]

Okay. This is extremely easy to me.

 

Demandred is controlling The Black Tower. Duh. It is obvious. He is in Murandy. It makes sense. He is behind the Sharans Red Veils. his "rule is secure" ? "We will be ready"? He is marshaling the shadows troops.

 

He is using a proxy with Taim, or if Taim is a chosen then working with him. Red Veils just screams him

[didymos]

Why are we so certain that Semi killed the Seanchan royals?

 

Because she says so in the KoD Prologue?

[Cirin]

In a sense, the qutoes from RJ about him not appearing prior to KoD really remove him doing anything TOO significant as far as the story goes, short of just being the commander of some army somewhere. Possibly he's Galgan, although no real evidence to suggest it. All the major characters that he could be impersonating all come before KoD, so it's unlikely that there will be a surprise-disguise reveal (although of those possibilites, I always thought Narishma would be the most interesting, since he's the one who "follows after" Rand (always number two...) and has been lugging Callandor around... plus he mentioned he was a little put out with Rand not warning him about all the wards on that thing... but he was around earlier, and also has some Aes Sedai linked to him). It's likely he's raising an army, is manipulating the Black Tower, and will just be the commander who fights on the field against the forces of Light. Possibly he's leading the assault on Caemlyn, etc. but we'll see - they did lose several important cities to surprise attacks in the Age of Legends.

 

As for a surprise reveal, though, I just don't see it coming... there's just no one of vital importance to Rand that was introduced that late in the series. I think the problem, much like who killed Asmodean, is that people probably care a bit TOO much what Demandred is up too... I just can't see how it will be anything terribly unstoppable, short of him riding into Merrilor and balefiring half the people there.

[Elan Tedronai]

only way demandred can redeem himself is to steal callandor kill min with it and balefire the whole lot in field of merrilor. Then travel to tar valon and destroy the white tower to the ground. Then travel to the black tower and finish off the do gooder ashaman and aes sedai.

 

Actually i would be impressed if he even manages to accomplish 1% of that. I am not holding my breath though. Barid bel Meidar has lost his balls somewhere in shayol ghul when he woke up in the current age

[Duskfire]

I am putting forth my lot in with him being with the Seanchan. Tuon talks about how there would be 50 different factions vying for the throne, and now someone has managed to take it? Semirhage watches over the Seanchan who attack the mainland, Demandred over the factions behind. Killing the Empress was basically a step in Demandred consolidating his rule, as he wouldnt have been able to ascend to the throne without the Empress dead. Murandy makes zero sense - it is surrounded by enemies. From someone of a military viewpoint like Demandred, he wouldn't go there. Not to mention, Roedran didn't build up his army until very recently, and only with the Bands help. So essentially, if Demandred is there, he has done absolutely nothing for 9 books or so to consolidate his rule.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Personally, while I think Murandy is a part of Demandred's master plan, I don't think it serves that plan as a fighting force, but as a launchpad. He does not have unchallenged control of the Black Tower or any of the other countries surrounding Andor. Having control of Murandy through a proxy like Roedran would allow him the ability to gate great numbers of whatever forces without being exposed.

[bjsm]

Murandy makes sense because of several things.

One is, the king has apparently become a much more capable player.

Two, he has mysteriously not appeared onstage despite being mentioned many times - and that fits various statements about Demandred.

The third point is that Murandy is ideally placed to hit any kingdom in the Westlands.

It's more or less bang in the centre, and well connected to the other Kingdoms.

How many men are in the Murandy army is irrelevant if there are Way gates / portal stones where trollocs can be brought in, in vast numbers.

 

But there are Portal Stones everywhere and Waygates everywhere (and actually there probably isn't a Waygate in Murandy outside of the stedding as there was not a major city there during the pre-Trolloc Wars era, when the Ogier-built cities got their Waygates). Why would Demandred have settled with Murandy from the beginning when he could have had Andor or Tear or Illian or some other powerful state? Murandy, even united, just can't hold a candle to the great powers.

[Sabio]

Murandy makes perfect sense. Its small and overlooked, all the forsaken who tried to to take a large countryare dead. People know the King of Murandy has formed an army and no one in the book seems concerned. Its a perfect place since no one views it as a threat. Great place for a forsaken to lay low and gather strength.

[thebeastwithin]

People are overthinking this one. He's obviously in Shara. No point in talking about the place unless it plays a part, which it won't do unless Demandred is ruling there. The rulers have been removed. DO likes people who gather armies for him. Question is how he gets the nation to side with DO. A silly guess is that Demandred, who was always jealous of LTT, has set himself up as the Dragon there and will trick the rallied armies into fighting Rand. I am also willing to accept that he is using Taim as a proxy BT ruler.

 

One theory that doesn't work at all is Seandar. There's just no way his rule would be secure. That scene in the latest book was setting up the outrigger, not Demandred. Can't believe anyone would consider this.

[Duskfire]

Murandy makes perfect sense. Its small and overlooked, all the forsaken who tried to to take a large countryare dead. People know the King of Murandy has formed an army and no one in the book seems concerned. Its a perfect place since no one views it as a threat. Great place for a forsaken to lay low and gather strength.

 

Your talking about someone who believes himself to be superior to lews Therin, who was the second most accomplished man of the last Age and is arrogant enough to believe he is entitled to everything. Small and overlooked does not fit Demandred. Not to mention, what has he been doing for a few books then? The nation was in chaos until the Band helped stablise the region and the army hadn't been built up until recently; so effictivily, for Demandred to be in Murandy he did nothing for a year and a half or so.

[WhiskyJack]

I think Murandy is relevant precisely for the reason people think it's irrelevant. Demandred has kept himself hidden for so long. That man obviously doesn't think like other "chosen". And I doubt that he is concerned about Murandy "army" (which is bound to be small). Just a place he is hiding.

[Guest Ishu161]

Maybe he hasn't been in a particular place. 'My rule is secure' and 'I gather for war' could simply mean that he has been planting seeds in many different locations, i.e. BT, possibly Murandy and Seanchan as well. But his main focus was elsewhere...preparing the Red Aiels. Those definitely seem like Demandred's work. Moridin would be too obvious, and to mention them in the epilogue suggested certain significance related to them. So, I'm going with him in the blight, possibly working with Moridin. Ishamael was a philosopher, not a general. He'll need to be prepared for the battle. He hasn't shown much trust in the choosen so far, and after Samirhage's foolishness, its likely that he will want to keep his greatest general under his eye. Graendal notices how Moridin did not pressed Demandred for more information. That could simply mean that he understood what demandred meant, and the whole point of Demandred being there was simply giving Graendal a taste of what she could achieve, which was obviously successful.

[Duskfire]

I think Murandy is relevant precisely for the reason people think it's irrelevant. Demandred has kept himself hidden for so long. That man obviously doesn't think like other "chosen". And I doubt that he is concerned about Murandy "army" (which is bound to be small). Just a place he is hiding.

 

But he is the Shadows best general. Surely Moridin and Shaidar Haran wouldnt allow him to just "hide." They would actually want him working toward something. And Demandred doesnt just hide; thats Moghieden. You cna guarantee he is doing something, and has been doing something big, for ages now. Murandy simply does not fit that description at all.

[Ataxia]

I think its funny people think hes only in 1 place. I think its quite possible he is involved with Shara, Murandy, the BT(partially), and any other place their has been reports of unrest(chaos). Hes doing his best to disrupt Rand uniting the world and destroying any potentially strong allies. Look at his pact with the 2 other Forsaken. Semi takes out the Seanchan, Messanna takes out the White tower, and he takes out the rest(Shara, the isle of mad, and Murandy). I could even see him involved with the red veiled aiel. Then throw in thousands of trollocs hes gathering and he has a mighty army.

[TonyMacaroniGlenholmes]

If it's Murandy, it'll be anti-climax. Sad, but true.

 

Narishma?

[AutomatedTeller]

I'm not sure he's in Murandy. I was doing a re-read of TDR and, at one point, they are talking about Illian and the council, who seem to be talking up war against Tear... but all the soldiers, etc, keep looking north, towards murandy. I don't remember that Sammael hates Demandred enough to wage war on him, and war on a fellow Forsaken seems a little much.

 

It's a thin reed, but I am wondering if Murandy is a red-herring for us...

[Sharaman]

None of the FS (with the probable exception of Moridin-Ishamael) may have known where Demandred was based.

Semirhage and Mesaana may have had some idea since they had an alliance.

Graendal for sure didn't know, nor did Sammael if their conversations make sense.

Now we know he's not with the Borderlanders though he may have manipulated them via BA.

Murandy is the only remaining Westland kingdom where he could be.

It could be a red herring but Danelle for instance, wasn't.

Wonder if the sister Egwene sent to Roedran will return?

[remylevin]

Demandred is probably in Seanchan. Here's why:

 

Let's think of all the places he could conceivably be-the list is pretty short, assuming we're eliminating every location that is controlled by the light or the onscreen Seanchan:

 

Murandy

BT

Seanchan

Shara

Blight

Some alternate world

Isle of Madmen

Borderlanders

 

And...that's about it. Not that many places. Now, we can use some things we know, or strongly suspect, to eliminate some of these locations. First, the "my rule is secure" comment: this must imply that a) Dem is ruling something; b) what he's ruling has some reason not to be secure; and c) what he's ruling probably wasn't secure in the past, or Dem has assumed firm control recently, or there is reason to think that it wouldn't be secure in the present. So, what does this tell us? using this quote, we can eliminate the Blight (if Dem is gathering trollocs, he is obviously in control of them-no need to make reassurances) and some alternate world (same reason.)

 

Second, we can use what we know about Murandy to eliminate it. First, there is the bit about Murandy being too insignificant to be Dem's power base. This is a very good point-a forsaken of his stature would not be diverted by such a small, weak country. furthermore, what advantage would Murandy be as a base of operations for the FS? Yes, it's in the "center" of the continent, but it's still not close enough to anywhere important to be a real strategic advantage-it's still days, if not weeks, to march an army anywhere important from there. "Well," you say, "he could just use the Ways, or traveling!" Precisely-but Traveling and the Ways for shadowspawn-these devices can be accessed from anywhere, and no "central" location is needed. So, Murandy is too weak to be worth taking over and useless, strategically, as a "base of operations." Finally, if all this is not enough, we have the evidence from the rebel AS passing through: would Dem really allow his nobles to fawn over Andoran nobles, or let the Salidar AS pass through his realm w/o a fight, or make bargains with the Band of the red hand? I think not. the only real argument for Murandy is the "process of elimination" argument, but most people who argue this fail to include a full list of options in their analysis, or eliminate some things off the list for the wrong reasons.

 

Third, thematic arguments: it is highly unlikely that Dem is somewhere that has not been really mentioned or discussed in the series so far. It is completely against RJ's style to pull something like this off-RJ was the master of foreshadowing. Using this argument, we can eliminate the isle of madmen (I think this was only mentioned in the encyclopedia.)

 

Fourth, we know through ToM that D is not one of the borderlander kings (the whole staring into Rand's eyes thing.) Maybe he was responsible for manipulating them into coming south, but he cannot be Paitr or Tenobia or any one of the 4.

 

Let's recap the list of possibilities, and see what's left:

 

Murandy

BT

Seanchan

Shara

Blight

Some alternate world

Isle of Madmen

Borderlanders

 

OK, now let's compare the likelihood that he's in Shara vs. Seanchan. Shara is a lot less likely, b/c: a) thematically, we know about/have seen the Seanchan mainland a lot more in the series. We've actually been there twice (once when Rand was chasing Aviendha, the second time in the prologue to ToM); we also know a lot more about the customs, culture etc. we've seen numerous people from Seanchan, subcultures, customes, haircuts yada yada yada. Shara has been mentioned maybe five times in the series, mostly by Jain Farstrider. Seanchan is just a lot more fleshed out, and in keeping with the "must have foreshadowing" method of interpreting RJ's writing, it's just a lot more likely that he's in Seanchan, if he is in one of the two. b) Dem has had an alliance with Semirhage and Mesaana throughout. Semirhage was involved with the Seanchan, whereas the Sharans were only mentioned by Graendal to Sammael (and even then, we were given strong hint that it was just a decoy.) Dem, like all the FS, is much more likely to be engaged in a region that overlaps one of his allies' interests (Semi) rather than his enemies' (Graendal.) Remember, these are all extremely jealous, territorial people.

 

There are other, independant reasons to believe Dem is in Seanchan which I will get to shortly, but first I'd like to establish that if Dem is either in Shara or in Seanchan, he is probably in Seanchan. Therefore, we can eliminate Shara off the list.

 

We're left, then, with two real options: Dem is in the BT, or Dem is on the Seanchan mainland. Both of these are viable, but I think that, based on the evidence we have, Dem is probably not in the BT. Here's why:

a) Dem is not Taim. We know this. So if Dem is in the BT, he is either another Asha'man, or is hiding in Taim's palace, 13X13'ing people day and night. We also know (almost certainly) that Taim is a DF. Why, then, would Dem pretend to be a subservient Asha'man to him? (we have no indication from our visits to the BT that a "new ruler" has emerged to replace the M'Hael.) Also, why would he be hiding in Taim's palace in the BT? Neither of these options makes sense. So, Dem is probably not in the BT. Another way to think about this: Taim is running a slick operation. There is no reason to think the active participation of a FS is needed-Dem's role would be superfluous.

b) "My rule is secure" indicates that there is some reason to think Dem's rule is not secure. If Taim is ruling the BT with an iron fist (which he is) and he's a DF (which he almost certainly is) then why would Dem's rule not be secure? It would make no sense for him to say this if he was in the BT.

c) The BT has Moridin's fingerprints all over it. Think about it: Taim must have access to at least two extremely rare Ter'angreal in order to be doing his dirty business: a dreamspike and an oath rod (in order to release the 13X13'd AS from their vows.) both of these items were confirmed to be in the possession of Moridin at the beginning of ToM. It makes sense that Taim got them from him. Also, it's likely that Taim got the seal he gave Rand from Moridin (I don't have time to get into this theory here, though-it'll have to wait, just like my explanation of why the Gholam was sent by Moridin) It's much more likely, then, that Taim is a minion of Moridin (or Moridin himself) than of Demandred. the only real "evidence" we have of a Dem-BT connection is the instructions to the rogue Asha'man to kill Rand, but if anything, this is evidence that Dem is not in the BT: after all, why would he be delivering orders to his DFs if his closely supervised minion had already delivered such orders?

 

So, Dem is probably not in the BT either. This leaves only the Seanchan mainland through a process of elimination (see, all you "Roedmandred" supporters? This can work both ways ). There are however, other reasons to think Dem is in Seanchan besides the process of elimination. Here goes:

a) It makes sense with how little of him we've seen-if he's on another continent marshaling forces, we would not see much of him in Randland. This is also how his avatar has avoided all screentime through KoD.

b) "a murderer ruled in Seanchan"-hmmmm...who could this be? How has someone ascended to the throne so quickly when there were likely to be "fifty factions" fighting?

c) The Semirhage-Mesaana-Dem connection: remember this alliance? There's likely a reason they were in cahoots. Mesaana was in the WT, Semi was with the Corenne-it makes sense for Dem to be on the mainland. If I was to make a guess, I would say that this triple axis of evil had a grand scheme in mind: break the WT, deliver it into the hands of the Corenne (i.e., get all AS leashed), then marshal the Seanchan forces and use them to attack the light. What better way to strike against the light than to disable the WT, then use the most organized military force on the planet and thousands of channelers to strike at your enemy?

d) The Seanchan are the most likely large army to be delivered to the fight by Dem-on that note, if Dem was to level a blow against the light, the Seanchan would be the most likely candidate for him to use-very organized military force, lots of subservient channelers, possible to transport through Traveling. Really, they could show up anywhere. Dem is also likely to have some kind of military force-it's mentioned numerous times that he's a general, and that he's marshaling forces.

e) The panning camera over the Seanchan mainland-why did ToM open with this? Seems like a waste unless the mainland has some role to play in the last novel. If you ask me, this is a major clue that we're going to see a role for the mainland in the ending.

f) lastly, there is Forshadowing in the series of a Dem/Mat showdown- I won't get into this too much, but there have been some clues dropped in the series (I think) of an eventual Dem/Mat showdown. This would jibe nicely with the Seanchan theory.

 

So, as you can see, there are quite a few reasons to think Dem is on mainland China Seanchan, marshaling forces. This is not to say that he hasn't been spreading chaos in Randland at the same time-he's the likely suspect behind Masema and the Borderlanders diversion, after all. Can't wait for AMoL and some epic resolution to his storyline!

[Zodd]

None of the FS (with the probable exception of Moridin-Ishamael) may have known where Demandred was based.

Semirhage and Mesaana may have had some idea since they had an alliance.

Graendal for sure didn't know, nor did Sammael if their conversations make sense.

Now we know he's not with the Borderlanders though he may have manipulated them via BA.

Murandy is the only remaining Westland kingdom where he could be.

It could be a red herring but Danelle for instance, wasn't.

Wonder if the sister Egwene sent to Roedran will return?

 

I had completely forgoten about the Semirhage/Mesaana/Demandred alliance. It got me wondering as to why three great powerhouses of the Shadow would join in alliance in the first place.

 

Via Google: "An alliance is usually formed with companies that are not directly competing with each other and sell similar goods or services that are trying to sell to the same targeted audience." There is also this article on that helped me think about it.

 

Similar goods would be people with power, position and armies. Target audience, Rand Al'thor and the world, and their destruction.

 

Both Semirhage and Mesaana were set up in places that the One Power is in rule. Both have armies and influence. Both places are where Rand Al'thor must come in contact with their rulers. Semirhage in Seanchan had planned to use the Damane and Empire from it's head and Messaana the White Tower from behind the scenes. This leads me to believe that Demandred would also be in a place where the OP is the main interest, and where Rand must also come back to. There is only one other stop on that cruise.

 

We know that the Black Tower is being used in some Forsaken scheme. We know the second DSpike Moridin had is being put to good use there, either by himself, or given to someone else. We're sure there are Lightsiders being 13x13'd there. We assume the BT is being directed or run by a Chosen.

 

In the Prologue of LoC Demandred is the one who passes on the DO's order to the other living Chosen at the time: "Let the Lord of Choas Rule". This is when the Black Tower comes into it's power, Rand Al'thor appointing Taim to teach. We now consider Taim to be a DF at the very least. Taim later tell's the the broken Tower Aes Sedai of the story rhyme "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule". In amused voices. To the laughter of his Asha'man.

 

 

From Winters Heart, the Asha'man darkfriend Kisman an co. in Far Madding, trying to kill Rand and get the Choden Kal

Kisman is furious with Rochaid. They were supposed to wait until everyone arrived, but he wanted to glory of killing Rand. Kisman wants power rather than glory. The M'Hael ordered them to kill Rand in Cairhien and was furious when they failed and were found out. He made it clear that Far Madding is their last chance. Dashiva vanished. Demandred later ordered them to kill Rand and not let even the M'Hael know of it. Still later, Moridin said to kill Rand if they must, but mainly to bring Rand's possessions to him. They are the only two Forsaken that Kisman has met. Suddenly, Kisman feels a slash on his arm. The wound quickly festers and his hand turns black. Kisman tries to run, but it is too late.

 

This would suggest that Taim is under Demandred, but plot without his knowledge. OR That the DO order to Let the Lord of Chaos Rule applies even to it's followers.

 

There is also this article from wotfaq which has an interesting last paragraph.

 

Just some thoughts.

[Thorum]

When exactly did we actually see Paitr before TDR? Curios.

 

Prologue of one of the books: at the first mention of the 4 Borderland rulers coming together going south, we see all 4 of them.

 

i dont quite understand why everyone is convinced he is in murandy.

 

Elimination. 'King of Murandy' is the strongest possible position left for him to be in which already was around when the Forsaken escaped. That eliminates the Black Tower (which would mean Logain = Demandred, which is just a silly concept).

 

Seanchan can be eliminated because Semirhage was already there. Forsaken don't rule together. Even if they pretend friendship.

Shara (and the Madmen land) can be eliminated because RJ said he doubted we would ever go there.

 

I believe the Blight is for Nae'blis. Why make someone Nae'blis if not for leading the super-army? Demandred would never go for being second-in-command.

 

Any others you want to see eliminated?

[Duskfire]

Seanchan can be eliminated because Semirhage was already there. Forsaken don't rule together. Even if they pretend friendship.

 

Seanchan is a massive place though, with many different factions. Demandred could easily establish himself there without stepping on Semirhages toes. She was involved with the Return anyway, so they didnt even have to be ruling together. How long would she have spent on the mainland? Half a year? A year? I see it as Mesaana and Aran`gar; both were among the Aes Sedai, but with the different factions, and as such they had their different goals (although they probably worked in concert to some extent.)

[Thorum]

Seanchan can be eliminated because Semirhage was already there. Forsaken don't rule together. Even if they pretend friendship.

 

Seanchan is a massive place though, with many different factions. Demandred could easily establish himself there without stepping on Semirhages toes. She was involved with the Return anyway, so they didnt even have to be ruling together. How long would she have spent on the mainland? Half a year? A year? I see it as Mesaana and Aran`gar; both were among the Aes Sedai, but with the different factions, and as such they had their different goals (although they probably worked in concert to some extent.)

 

Semi had both the Seanchan mainland and the Return in her grasp. The Blood is much too hierarchical (how the heck do you spell that in English?) to let 2 rulers exist without providing a huge storyline (as with the Tower split). Consider this a question for a potential little hint at a splint in Seanchan. It would have to be a big one, not simply two rivalling Houses.

[Ataxia]

I think Dem is pretty easy to figure out. I think hes doing everything he can to counter act Rands actions. Everything Rand does, Dem has done something to disrupt.

 

 

-Unite the land? Alliance with Semi and Mes to disrupt the big powerhouses of the world.

-Aiel army? Dem gets his own Sharan army. Or madman, whichever.

-Channelers? Dem gets own channelers from the BT and other locations.

-Dragon sworn? Dem gathers millions of trollocs/fades from different worlds. If Graendal could gather a few hundred thousand, imagine how many Dem could've gathered in a longer period of time.

-Rand becomes King of Illian? Dem decides he will be king somewhere, Murandy. If im looking at the timelines correctly, Rand gets Illian at the end of ACOS and Dem gets Murandy the following book. Reeks of jealousy. Also a very strategic location.

 

Moridin has been gathering up the rest of the Forsaken. If all Demandred did was unite Murandy, he would've gone after Dem as well. But since he's causing chaos all over the world, and coming up with a huge military force; Moridin leaves him alone.

[Fable]

From what I know of Demandred he won't just want to beat LTT. He'll want to beat him at the most important moment of his existence as the Dragon. He'll want to cripple him and shame him and have this one victory be the most pivotal and final victory. It's the only one that actually matters. Demandred has kept his eye on the prize the whole time, and it wouldn't surprise me if the only thing that keeps Demandred from killing LTT is Moridin's insistance that none of them can kill him. Moridin may kill Demandred in order to save LTT in order to save himself.

[Elend]

He's obviously in Murandy, likely Roedran. I mean, he's the only ruler that hasn't responded to Egwene's summons for starters (IIRC). Giant clue right there.