The Luckers Official Review.

[Elan Tedronai]

I don't know if luckers was reading the same book as me but TOM second best book? I know everyone's got their opinion but this book is frankly path of daggers territory

[Sid]

I don't know if luckers was reading the same book as me but TOM second best book? I know everyone's got their opinion but this book is frankly path of daggers territory

Assuming you're one of the many fans that considers TPoD one of the worst books in the series, that's pretty harsh. Personally I had it as my fifth best of the series, and enjoyed it a great deal. Plot-wise, it had the potential to crack the top three, but a few clumsy areas kept it from that level IMO. PoD was not poorly written, but quite frankly there were at least twice as many great scenes in ToM if not more.

[Sabio]

Does that make her immediate assumption that Rand is wrong alright? No. It was still an assumption, made without any true understanding of his specific reasons, and with no consideration that he might HAVE specific reasons. But then on the reverse is that Rand made no attempt to convey his reasons to her to begin with. And she does have the wisdom to change her mind, we've seen this. Ultimately, I'd even go so far as to say that based on what she knows that she is right to prepare to stop it, but wrong in not considering the possibility of not stopping it. I think she can get past that.

Which was Rand's plan, he knew how she would react and what she will do. My problem is Egwene is she opposes Rand, but really has no plan of her own.

 

Elayne - More examples of her never learning. Well my babies will be ok so I can throw myself in danger again and again with no worries. She is another selfish brat who never takes into account what effect her actions mighth ave on Rand or Brigette.

 

Rand - I understand him avoiding the BT, he knows somehting is wrong there but has no idea what to do with it. He has too much on his plate to risk a showdowb with Taim. Which is why I think you will see a Taim vs Logain showdown. Yes does bother me he wasted alot of time in the book without making another attempt to get peace with the Seachean. like him not being so dark, but his new I am so sorry attitude is sort of annoying.

 

Ny - One of the few females in the book who seems to learn and adapt. She has given up trying to boss Rand around.

 

Egwene- still miss know it all, she seems imo to get worse each book. She refuses to admit she needs help.

 

Perin - I agree, getting super old the whole I am not good enough to be a leader, blah blah blah blah.

 

Slayer- yeah kill him off, he has been shot with and arrow and stabbed. Yet still lives.

 

Avi - liked her parts but wish she would play bigger role in the books.

 

I was disappointed how Grendal escaped. Still didn't make sense to me her not doing the compulsion herself. Like the Aran'gal surpise of getting balefired but seemed bit weak how she escaped. Good book, but not the best. Thought the Perrin/whitecloak was too drawn out and the Mat going to rescue Moraine went too quick.

[Sabio]

Oh and pardon my ignorance, but who is Richard Rahl?

Trust me, you don't want to know. 

 

 

I wish I didn't, that's for sure.

 

Agreed. 2-dimension writing at its best. Had to force-finish a read of the third volume, then promptly dismissed them as viable reads....

Forced myself to book 5 of the series. I blame RJ for taking too long to put out the Wheel of Time books forcing me to find other series as I waited for next WoT book. Plus the " Ricahrd Rahl" series clearly stole stuff from WoT. Anyone see the lame Richard Rahl TV series, forgot what it was called.

PoD and Winters Heart are the two worst of the series followed by Crown of Swords IMO.

[Guest Ishu161]

well, I still think that Shadow Rising is the best book in the series, but this is right up there.

 

I'm not worried about Rand being the "guy who is always right, all the time" Sanderson doesn't have to try to imitate Ayn Rand, so he has that going for him - also, Rand is already making what I think are critical mistakes.

 

From what I can tell, ToM is a month of time for Rand - comes off the Mountain, talks to Egwene and tells her he's meeting in a month. End of the book, he arrives.

 

In that month, we see him kick ass on the borders, feed bandar eban, get slapped by the borderlanders, talk to Nynaeve and reunite with Aiel/Min/Dad. Maybe 5 days. In the other 25 days, not ONCE does he say "huh - the seanchan are still a threat and my good friend Mat knows the Empress, maybe I should check in and see what he thinks" He doesn't seem to try to move his armies, he doesn't stop in with Perrin and see what he's up to, he doesn't go deal with the Black Tower, he doesn't stop in at the White Tower again to confer with Egwene, he doesn't seem to really do anything strategic.

 

So is he supposed to everything by himself now? He himself said after defeating the trolloc army at the gates of Maradon, that he can't put the idea around in people's head that he'll always be there to save them. Mat and Perrin have to follow their own path. The color swirls show him enough to at least give him a hint of what his friends are up to....now he's so 'wise' and all.

But I think I agree with you about him not doing enough to ensure the Seanchan don't get too much control. Now the borderlanders are under him, what will he do with them? The Fields of merillon have probably all the major nations' army gathered, what if the Seanchan attack now....Tuon was already planning a full assault on the WT now that they have gateways. Meanwhile, Camelyn is overrun by trollocs. Seems to me that if the Seanchan get a wind of this army gathering at the fields(which are supposed to be way up in the north)....and about Camelyn, which they are bound to, there won't be much left of the westlands nations.

But at the same time, what exactly can he do? He tried to have peace with them, which, probably because of his "my name is death and the end is near" attitude, didn't work. He has said so himself numerous times that he can't fight both Seanchan and the shadow. I think that the only chance he now has lies with Mat. Maybe Mat will be there when Moiraine finds Rand, there's a good chance of that.

[Mr Ares]

Does that make her immediate assumption that Rand is wrong alright? No. It was still an assumption, made without any true understanding of his specific reasons, and with no consideration that he might HAVE specific reasons. But then on the reverse is that Rand made no attempt to convey his reasons to her to begin with. And she does have the wisdom to change her mind, we've seen this. Ultimately, I'd even go so far as to say that based on what she knows that she is right to prepare to stop it, but wrong in not considering the possibility of not stopping it. I think she can get past that.

Which was Rand's plan, he knew how she would react and what she will do. My problem is Egwene is she opposes Rand, but really has no plan of her own.

As far as we know, Rand's plan is: 1)release Shai'tan, 2)wing it. I'd say that a little opposition is entirely warranted.

 

Elayne - More examples of her never learning. Well my babies will be ok so I can throw myself in danger again and again with no worries. She is another selfish brat who never takes into account what effect her actions mighth ave on Rand or Brigette.

Would you care to provide an example from this book of Elayne putting herself in danger? Would that be the time she interogated a shielded prisoner in her own dungeons, with nearby guards, and was only put at risk due to the wholly unforeseeable - a jailbreak at the exact same time she was in there?

[Auld Manriva]

I'm trying to decide. Is this a "discuss Luckers' review thread; a Psychology 101 introduction class; or a discussion over Objectivist Writing. I'm not sure who is the worst between Rand herself (she was godawful and I first read Atlas Shrugged over 40 years ago at 17) Or Goodkind (so far beyond godawful to be in another galaxy).

 

 

Whatever; m'thinks I'll go with the original intent. I Love this book and include myself among those who agree with Luckers ranking. Nicely done Lad.

 

RAND

I don't find Moses/Rand particularly distressing. I've felt his character (The Champion of the Light) was heading this direction since first reading tEofW. I've just been waiting to see how he got there.

 

CADSUANE

I don't have a particular issue with CaddyShack either. She's still the same crusty, persnickety old Great Aunt, who's gonna demand you bloody Learn something, have some manners and sends nice gifts for your Birthday, even if one year you got Lederhosen and a goofy forest green Mountaineer/Robin Hood hat because she just spent two years in Germany. They were Bloody Nice lederhosen!

 

As I've said before, I "listen" (audiobooks almost exclusively) for the story and not as research material for my Masters Thesis.

[Sabio]

Elayne - More examples of her never learning. Well my babies will be ok so I can throw myself in danger again and again with no worries. She is another selfish brat who never takes into account what effect her actions mighth ave on Rand or Brigette.

Would you care to provide an example from this book of Elayne putting herself in danger? Would that be the time she interogated a shielded prisoner in her own dungeons, with nearby guards, and was only put at risk due to the wholly unforeseeable - a jailbreak at the exact same time she was in there?

 

Well lets see, she got captured and carried out of the city, she knew Brigette wouldn't approve of her going down into the dungeon, that it was risky. Brigette even made a statement about Elayne taking too many chances. Elayne even made statement about her babies will be born healthy, to which someone said basicly your babies will be healthy nothing in the viewing said anything about you. So I would say there is some evidence of her needlessly putting herself in danger becuase she assumes everything will turn out ok becuase of Mins viewing.

[Mr Ares]

Elayne - More examples of her never learning. Well my babies will be ok so I can throw myself in danger again and again with no worries. She is another selfish brat who never takes into account what effect her actions mighth ave on Rand or Brigette.

Would you care to provide an example from this book of Elayne putting herself in danger? Would that be the time she interogated a shielded prisoner in her own dungeons, with nearby guards, and was only put at risk due to the wholly unforeseeable - a jailbreak at the exact same time she was in there?

 

Well lets see, she got captured and carried out of the city, she knew Brigette wouldn't approve of her going down into the dungeon, that it was risky. Brigette even made a statement about Elayne taking too many chances. Elayne even made statement about her babies will be born healthy, to which someone said basicly your babies will be healthy nothing in the viewing said anything about you. So I would say there is some evidence of her needlessly putting herself in danger becuase she assumes everything will turn out ok becuase of Mins viewing.

How was it risky? How was she in danger? "Birgitte wouldn't like it" isn't much of an argument, really. What went wrong in the dungeons was not something she could foresee, not something she could plan for, and not something that was likely to happen. Therefore it can hardly be considered a stupid risk on her part. So, I ask the question that so far everyone has failed to satisfactorily answer: where did she go wrong? What stupid, risky things did she do in this book?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well lets see, she got captured and carried out of the city, she knew Brigette wouldn't approve of her going down into the dungeon, that it was risky. Brigette even made a statement about Elayne taking too many chances. Elayne even made statement about her babies will be born healthy, to which someone said basicly your babies will be healthy nothing in the viewing said anything about you. So I would say there is some evidence of her needlessly putting herself in danger becuase she assumes everything will turn out ok becuase of Mins viewing.

 

So, what's your contention? That Elayne is just plain stupid? That she's an unthinking thrill seeker?

 

Or just that she's an important part of a situation no expectant mother would wish to find herself in? That in spite of her pregnancy she realizes that the situation demands a certain level of risk be taken? That she's young enough to still believe she's immortal no matter what?

 

I mean, what is the gripe here?

 

Objectively, the situation is that they are all, every person alive, facing not just the end of their individual lives, but all of existence! If she doesn't do everything she can, morally, spiritually, physically, she and those babies are certain to die!

 

So, her choices are to take some risks and maybe die or to hide and remain as physically safe as she can manage and certainly die.

 

Face the facts, people, she doesn't have any "good" choices. There is no safety. She's still on a tightrope, in an earthquake, with a gale and a thunderstorm raging and there is no safety net!. She can forge ahead and maybe get to the other side, or she can freeze, try to cling to the rope and certainly die.

 

The fact that we're even having a discussion about this demonstrates how little tension and menace the author has been able to generate. Readers seemingly think there is some proper, safe, smart thing Elayne could be doing. Objectively, there is not. Anything she does, anything she fails to do could spell doom.

 

So, quit raggin' on the girl. She's got enough to put up with, what with the end of the universe staring her in the face, a midwife poking at her, political intrigue everywhere, assassins hunting her, and nothing to drink but warm freaking milk!

[mbuehner]

Does that make her immediate assumption that Rand is wrong alright? No. It was still an assumption, made without any true understanding of his specific reasons, and with no consideration that he might HAVE specific reasons. But then on the reverse is that Rand made no attempt to convey his reasons to her to begin with. And she does have the wisdom to change her mind, we've seen this. Ultimately, I'd even go so far as to say that based on what she knows that she is right to prepare to stop it, but wrong in not considering the possibility of not stopping it. I think she can get past that.

Which was Rand's plan, he knew how she would react and what she will do. My problem is Egwene is she opposes Rand, but really has no plan of her own.

As far as we know, Rand's plan is: 1)release Shai'tan, 2)wing it. I'd say that a little opposition is entirely warranted.

 

Elayne - More examples of her never learning. Well my babies will be ok so I can throw myself in danger again and again with no worries. She is another selfish brat who never takes into account what effect her actions mighth ave on Rand or Brigette.

Would you care to provide an example from this book of Elayne putting herself in danger? Would that be the time she interogated a shielded prisoner in her own dungeons, with nearby guards, and was only put at risk due to the wholly unforeseeable - a jailbreak at the exact same time she was in there?

 

The point of precautions is to deal with the unforeseen. Assassination attempts aren't generally made in ways you would foresee.

 

I also cant stand the fact that Elayne never learns a lesson. We could easily go down the list of the number of times she's been konked over the head- and what they just about all share in common is that they are risks that have no benefit. Pulling the weave of a gateway apart when an expert is next to you- no foreseeable benefit. Going after a nest of BA with a tiny group possibly containing traitors instead of the huge number of channelers and warriors at your disposal- no upside. Etc, etc, etc. The point is you have to be border line mentally challenged not to learn after about the 5th time that if you have resources, use them. How many red shirts have died because Elayne thought she knew all the risks and could handle them without all the help readily available, at no extra cost?

[louigie15]

Oh and pardon my ignorance, but who is Richard Rahl?

The Richard Rahl I am aware of is the main character from The Sword of Truth by Terry Goodkind. A very long and drawn out story that I really enjoyed but felt it could have been a couple of books shorter. The TV adaptation I happened to try and watch was not very good but I did enjoy the story over all.

[Sabio]

The point of contention is she assumes she can take risks because she knows her babies will be born healthy. She never consdiers the bad effect of her getting killed will have on Rand or Brigette.

[Mr Ares]

Does that make her immediate assumption that Rand is wrong alright? No. It was still an assumption, made without any true understanding of his specific reasons, and with no consideration that he might HAVE specific reasons. But then on the reverse is that Rand made no attempt to convey his reasons to her to begin with. And she does have the wisdom to change her mind, we've seen this. Ultimately, I'd even go so far as to say that based on what she knows that she is right to prepare to stop it, but wrong in not considering the possibility of not stopping it. I think she can get past that.

Which was Rand's plan, he knew how she would react and what she will do. My problem is Egwene is she opposes Rand, but really has no plan of her own.

As far as we know, Rand's plan is: 1)release Shai'tan, 2)wing it. I'd say that a little opposition is entirely warranted.

 

Elayne - More examples of her never learning. Well my babies will be ok so I can throw myself in danger again and again with no worries. She is another selfish brat who never takes into account what effect her actions mighth ave on Rand or Brigette.

Would you care to provide an example from this book of Elayne putting herself in danger? Would that be the time she interogated a shielded prisoner in her own dungeons, with nearby guards, and was only put at risk due to the wholly unforeseeable - a jailbreak at the exact same time she was in there?

The point of precautions is to deal with the unforeseen. Assassination attempts aren't generally made in ways you would foresee.

Actually, they are frequently made in easily foreseeable ways. And you wouldn't take precautions against the unforeseen, by virtue of it being unforeseen. You take precautions against things you can foresee, and that you think have a reasonable chance of happening. For example, seatbelts in cars - car crashes are easily forseen, and something the average motorist might experience. While most people could foresee the possibility of a bomb, it is so distant a possibility in most cases that bomb proofing your car isn't worth the expense. Now, Elayne protecting against an assassination attempt is reasonable - that's why she has bodyguards. She has taken reasonable precautions. Elayne has guards in her dungeon to stop people escaping. But the chances of a jailbreak just happening to coincide with her visit to the dungeon is not at all something that is likely to happen, therefore while it might be possible to act against it happening, there would be precious little point.

 

I also cant stand the fact that Elayne never learns a lesson. We could easily go down the list of the number of times she's been konked over the head- and what they just about all share in common is that they are risks that have no benefit. Pulling the weave of a gateway apart when an expert is next to you- no foreseeable benefit. Going after a nest of BA with a tiny group possibly containing traitors instead of the huge number of channelers and warriors at your disposal- no upside. Etc, etc, etc. The point is you have to be border line mentally challenged not to learn after about the 5th time that if you have resources, use them. How many red shirts have died because Elayne thought she knew all the risks and could handle them without all the help readily available, at no extra cost?

What was the benefit of unweaving the Gateway? Well, it meant the Seanchan couldn't follow them. Avi couldn't do it, because she didn't make the Gateway. If she had, bear in mind that hers are smaller, therefore they probably wouldn't have all escaped. So it is wholly unreasonable to fault Elayne for that. Whether or not Elayne was in the right to attack the BA nest in KOD was brought up in this book - she contends she had no way of knowing other BA would come back. Now, bear in mind there was one traitor in the four AS who went in, and precautions were taken to neutralise that traitor (that's why they linked). Taking other soldiers or channelers might bring with it the possibility of another Darkfriend. So of your two examples of Elayne's stupid risks, one is wrong and one is rather arguable. "She never learns lessons, she made one good choice and one arguably bad one" is not a hugely compelling argument.

 

Oh and pardon my ignorance, but who is Richard Rahl?

The Richard Rahl I am aware of is the main character from The Sword of Truth by Terry Goodkind. A very long and drawn out story that I really enjoyed but felt it could have been a couple of books shorter.

Many people feel the series would benefit from being about eleven books shorter than its current length.

 

The point of contention is she assumes she can take risks because she knows her babies will be born healthy. She never consdiers the bad effect of her getting killed will have on Rand or Brigette.

Well, she can't die yet if the babies have yet to be born.

[waffle]

Blindly trusting someone else´s vision is pretty dumb.

 

They all do it, but it´s still pretty dumb.

[Danvighar]

More to the point, blindly trusting your interpretation of someone else's vision is pretty dumb.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Blindly trusting someone else´s vision is pretty dumb.

 

They all do it, but it´s still pretty dumb.

 

Yes, it is. But it's dumber to trust nothing or no one at all.

 

Min's got an excellent track record. Trusting her visions is the safest bet anyone can make. As long as the Pattern survives, Min's visions will come true.

 

Trusting the Pattern to survive is also the safest bet that can be made. It's made it this far, after all. Despite every attempt that has been made to destroy it.

 

That leads to trusting yourself. As long as Elayne's intent is true the net effect of all her acts will be to preserve the Pattern.

 

Could Elayne make better choices? Undoubtedly. But that's true for everyone at all times. Nobody is infallible. Even with the best information, careful attention, and proper intent, a human being will make the wrong choice 2 times out of 3. It's simply the nature of life. We lose more often than we win.

 

At this point in the story, Elayne is alive, healthy, and generally succeeding at her goals. She must be doing more that is positive than negative. That's about all we can ask of any of the Good Guys.

[NetSlider]

I have to agree that Elayne didn't really put her self in danger. It was a control environment until the jailbreak occurred. I guess one could argue that she did it on a spur of a moment, but than almost everyone in the books does the same. She's young, give her some time. So, I would say she was in the wrong place at the wrong time, in this case.

[mbuehner]

It was dumb. She's a monarch, an AS, and a lover of the DR carrying his babies. What if she tripped on a step and fell against the cell? She is too important to give up to bad luck... even with the prophecy. There is a reason body guards follow you just about into the bathroom stall.

 

Look- this, like all Elayne idiocy, isn't a question of should she have taken the risk. The risk is fine. The question is why didn't she take SIMPLE PRECAUTIONS with the resources easily in hand. Like having your warder nearby. Or even just another channeler watching your back when you have a palace full of them. Or even just a bodyguard.

 

I'll admit it, at this point I'd love to see those babies delivered healthy out of a mother in Mesaana's state. Who thinks he turns the wheel of time may learn the truth too late?

[Bob T Dwarf]

It was dumb. She's a monarch, an AS, and a lover of the DR carrying his babies. What if she tripped on a step and fell against the cell? She is too important to give up to bad luck... even with the prophecy. There is a reason body guards follow you just about into the bathroom stall.

 

Look- this, like all Elayne idiocy, isn't a question of should she have taken the risk. The risk is fine. The question is why didn't she take SIMPLE PRECAUTIONS with the resources easily in hand. Like having your warder nearby. Or even just another channeler watching your back when you have a palace full of them. Or even just a bodyguard.

 

I'll admit it, at this point I'd love to see those babies delivered healthy out of a mother in Mesaana's state. Who thinks he turns the wheel of time may learn the truth too late?

 

Why? Because she doesn't have the energy to fight Birgitte and everybody else for what needs doing and then do those things yet too. She's being smothered by all the caretakers and guards. She could trip and fall at any time and in any location. Bad luck can strike at any time. Once you've fallen, having somebody handy to pick you up does nothing to mitigate the damage you've suffered in the fall.

 

She did take simple precautions. The prisoners were in guarded cells. The BA were shielded. There was nothing more she could do and have that disguise work.

 

Better to ask why she didn't have them all executed long since. That she is culpable for, but getting caught-up in their jailbreak was simply bad luck that could have happened to anyone.

[mbuehner]

Why? Because she doesn't have the energy to fight Birgitte and everybody else for what needs doing and then do those things yet too. She's being smothered by all the caretakers and guards.

 

She's a queen, and an AS. If she can't carry out her will with her attendants what business does she have mucking around with the BA? Can you see Rand being pushed around by a midwife? Or Nynaeve? Or even Egwene? She gets off on submitting herself to them and then sneaking off.

 

She could trip and fall at any time and in any location. Bad luck can strike at any time. Once you've fallen, having somebody handy to pick you up does nothing to mitigate the damage you've suffered in the fall.

 

You don't want to trip and fall where somebody will throttle you to death, as a general rule. Or even just laugh as you bleed to death. In such a case its the mitigation of damage that matters.

 

She did take simple precautions. The prisoners were in guarded cells. The BA were shielded. There was nothing more she could do and have that disguise work.

 

That's absurdly shortsighted. She could have ordered her warder to wait outside the door. She could have had a squad of the queens guard on hand. She could have used any of the channelers in the palace as backup, using the power to hide in the same room. Note, NONE of this would require anything but a couple of messengers to fetch some people and a little bit of backbone.

 

Better to ask why she didn't have them all executed long since. That she is culpable for, but getting caught-up in their jailbreak was simply bad luck that could have happened to anyone.

 

It couldn't have happened to someone not in the cells by themselves at night. And note this was one of only a number of Elayne idiocies, following immediately on the heels of being abducted and seeing 2 fellow AS killed because of her inability to realize that unforeseen things happen all the time.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It couldn't have happened to someone not in the cells by themselves at night. And note this was one of only a number of Elayne idiocies, following immediately on the heels of being abducted and seeing 2 fellow AS killed because of her inability to realize that unforeseen things happen all the time.

 

And this makes her different from or worse than who exactly?

 

Nobody is infallible. Rand, and his Maiden of the Spear guards allowed thirteen women into his presence who then shielded him and carried him out stuffed in a trunk under everybody's noses. Getting him free killed how many people? Rand surrounded himself with a Forsaken and four Darkfriend Asha'man who only missed killing him because, by pure chance, he stepped out of a room and down the hall seconds before they destroyed it with One Power. He then went to Far Madding to seek them out and kill them taking how much backup, exactly? Siuan got deposed and stilled because she took too many chances, getting how many Aes Sedai, Warders, and servants killed? Dividing the Tower, creating how much ruin and strife for how long? How many Dark Asha'man are there now because Rand has failed to pay proper attention to the Black Tower? How many will be killed rectifying that? How many of his own people did Rand kill with Callandor?

 

Yet it seems to be Elayne who is always the foolish one. The thoughtless one. The selfish one.

 

What a load of horse manure.

[Terez]

Does that make her immediate assumption that Rand is wrong alright? No. It was still an assumption, made without any true understanding of his specific reasons, and with no consideration that he might HAVE specific reasons. But then on the reverse is that Rand made no attempt to convey his reasons to her to begin with. And she does have the wisdom to change her mind, we've seen this. Ultimately, I'd even go so far as to say that based on what she knows that she is right to prepare to stop it, but wrong in not considering the possibility of not stopping it. I think she can get past that.

Which was Rand's plan, he knew how she would react and what she will do. My problem is Egwene is she opposes Rand, but really has no plan of her own.

As far as we know, Rand's plan is: 1)release Shai'tan, 2)wing it. I'd say that a little opposition is entirely warranted.

OMFG, I agree!

[AutomatedTeller]

It couldn't have happened to someone not in the cells by themselves at night. And note this was one of only a number of Elayne idiocies, following immediately on the heels of being abducted and seeing 2 fellow AS killed because of her inability to realize that unforeseen things happen all the time.

 

And this makes her different from or worse than who exactly?

 

Nobody is infallible. Rand, and his Maiden of the Spear guards allowed thirteen women into his presence who then shielded him and carried him out stuffed in a trunk under everybody's noses. Getting him free killed how many people? Rand surrounded himself with a Forsaken and four Darkfriend Asha'man who only missed killing him because, by pure chance, he stepped out of a room and down the hall seconds before they destroyed it with One Power. He then went to Far Madding to seek them out and kill them taking how much backup, exactly? Siuan got deposed and stilled because she took too many chances, getting how many Aes Sedai, Warders, and servants killed? Dividing the Tower, creating how much ruin and strife for how long? How many Dark Asha'man are there now because Rand has failed to pay proper attention to the Black Tower? How many will be killed rectifying that? How many of his own people did Rand kill with Callandor?

 

Yet it seems to be Elayne who is always the foolish one. The thoughtless one. The selfish one.

 

What a load of horse manure.

 

 

I like Elayne. I think she, like all of the rest of the good guys, are effective and engaging characters. I don't get the Egwene and Elayne hate.

 

That said, it was a dumb move and, afterwards, even SHE said that she needed to be more careful. And with Gawyn, she pointed out that impetuousness was a problem for her.

 

I think dealing with bodyguards is hard (I've never done it, of course). Rand spent 7 books not dealing with them well - it's really only now that he feels completely comfortable.

 

I don't have a problem with characters making mistakes because of their flaws, but it won't stop me from pointing them out as dumb.

 

We can see how many threads we can take over with arguing about Elayne, though...

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

I like Elayne. I think she, like all of the rest of the good guys, are effective and engaging characters. I don't get the Egwene and Elayne hate.

 

That said, it was a dumb move and, afterwards, even SHE said that she needed to be more careful. And with Gawyn, she pointed out that impetuousness was a problem for her.

 

I think dealing with bodyguards is hard (I've never done it, of course). Rand spent 7 books not dealing with them well - it's really only now that he feels completely comfortable.

 

I don't have a problem with characters making mistakes because of their flaws, but it won't stop me from pointing them out as dumb.

 

We can see how many threads we can take over with arguing about Elayne, though...

 

No argument. She did what she believed needed doing. It didn't go as well as it might have. That's par for the course with all of the Good Guys.

 

The Bad Guys, too, come to think of it.