Discuss Aviendha's Arc

[smileyman]

 

 

1) Aviendha's revelation is the absolute truth of what will happen in the future. Remember: this is not a Foretelling or a Dream or a god-awful Prophecy that can be open to 39 different interpretations and still won't make sense until after an event occurs. No, the means for Aviendha's vision, the Tan'greal, has already been established as a reliable tool; neither clan chiefs or Wise Ones have raised a doubt, and even after Rand tells of the Aiel's sin, the issue of whether or not the Tan'greal shows accurately is never an issue. In fact, that Tan'greal provides the ONLY method in the entire series to gain a crisp, clean reveal of a time that is not now....

 

Aviendha herself doesn't question whether the pillars are working properly, nor does she note anything odd about her visions, like a mist-like insubstantiality that has been established to illustrate a world of "What-if". Furthermore, her vision was identical in clarity and structure to what we were told that Rand experienced, and we saw through her bloodline just like Rand did. Her reaction to "Seeing What Will Be" is as profound and shattering as "Seeing What Was" was before He-Who-Comes-With-The-Dawn. (Note: Apparently, I wasn't the only person to have been shaken as deeply as Aviendha. Bravo, RJ/BS, for the totally unexpected and powerful reveal...)

 

 

Sorry, folks, but what she saw in those pillars is What Will Be.

 

Not necessarily.

 

 

Aviendha doesn't question the working of the pillars because she doesn't know any better about how they're supposed to work. She's the only person who's ever seen the future through those ter'angeal. Every other Aiel who's gone through them as seen the past through their ancestor's eyes. It's fairly clear that the ter'angeal were repurposed for Aviendha specifically, thus we don't know if they're infallible or not. Since we have no other comparison to base them on, we can't tell if they're a What Must Be or a What May Be.

 

In addition, the timeline of this book is a bit wonky, so we don't know for sure when Avi went through the ter'angeal. If she did it before Rand became Rand-Buddha it could be a reflection of what would've happened had Rand continued his current course. Now that Rand has achieved Enlightment, it will be different. He'll treat the assembled Nations differently before, during, and after the Last Battle, and that will dramatically affect whatever agreements he asks afterwards. My guess is that if Avi were to go through the ter'angeal now she'd see a different future.

[BlueSun]

Why is it just a memory device for Rand but then suddenly it is dismissed as a misty, unreliable crystal ball for Aviendha?

 

Because memories are about the past by definition? And it's just as reasonable to ask why we should assume that the ter'angreal is super-reliable when it's in flashforward mode. It's done that precisely once. That's a crappy sample size to extrapolate from, and especially when there's pretty much no independent verification of what it showed her. The one exception is her four children, which Min had a viewing of. But that's just one element of that future. We have absolutely know way to know that the rest of the future it showed is immutable. I mean, none of it has happened yet. There is no certainty to be had here. Any claims that it definitely will happen are bogus. So are claims that it definitely won't. The only answer right now is "We don't know enough yet." Or, in WoT terminology: RAFO.

 

I think the ter'angreal has nothing to do with "predicting" something that has not happened yet. No, it's more like getting a longer-range view along the threads in the Pattern.

 

And how is that different from prediction?

 

I had a wonderfully thought out reply and my cut and paste turned into shred and waste.... it was right poetical.... *sigh*....

 

That ter'angreal isn't about re-living the past, or seeing into the future, or replaying memories, or Foretelling what will be. No, that thing ignores linear time altogether and follows hereditary/genetic lines in the Pattern. Remember Rand said that it felt as though he lived those other lives, that he had been those people. Aviendha had experienced it in full first-person as well: she lived those lives.... Presumably, hundreds of generations of WO and clan chiefs went to Rhuidean as well and we can safely assume they experienced this as well....

 

Those experiences weren't about the Past or Future, per se: they were completely and totally about the Present. What was seen was not a constructed image, but the actual lives of those people. So Both Avi and Rand were living at those places in time, which implies that it is a real and true experience.

 

So, yeah, this is nothing like predictions or crystal balls or looking down the threads of the Pattern: this is about BEING other people in the Pattern. The labels of past and future are purely after-the-fact and totally relative to the person who does a pillar walk.

 

This is why Aviendha's experience is absolutely going to happen, because, in a way, it has already occured.

[johthohar]

Rand saw a past, something that already took place. That ter'angreal was nothing more than memory device for Rand. Hardly the same thing as predicting something that has not happened yet. And future can always be changed. For that to be untrue means people have no control over their action.

 

 

I soooooo disagree with this. Why is it just a memory device for Rand but then suddenly it is dismissed as a misty, unreliable crystal ball for Aviendha? All the evidence indicate that it functions exactly the same for both of them, with no discrepancies whatsoever..... So if it works as a memory device for Rand, then it works as a memory device for Aviendha....

 

I think the ter'angreal has nothing to do with "predicting" ysomething that has not happened yet. No, it's more like getting a longer-range view along the threads in the Pattern.

AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRGGGHHHH!!!!! Stupid phone!!!! I had this whole kick ass theory/response/argument typed out and my damn blackberry decides "Hmmm.... Nope... I'm gonna erase all that." So now I'm angry and going to bed. I'll retype what I was GOING to say when I get to work tomorrow/later-this-morning. I'll also correct my stupid crackberry typos then as my phone is freaking out and I'm about to break it in half.

 

*FIXED

[johthohar]

I had a wonderfully thought out reply and my cut and paste turned into shred and waste.... it was right poetical.... *sigh*....

 

Haha! Didn't see that 'til this morning. Weird that you and I had similar issues with posts so close to the same time.... Is it fate? Interesting.

 

Anyway (I'm fond of saying that... You'll all see), I didn't read the whole post you were replying to (or much of it at all for that matter) yet, but I think my post that got fracked by my blackberry was something similar (i.e. having to do with the complexities of the "future"). We'll see when I have time to type it all out.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

There is no reason for channeling to disappear in the 4th Age. Our own Age is supposed to be either the 7th or the 1st (though since there are no Portal stones around just yet, that's a bit less likely). Which is why some very rare items from it, like the Mercedes-Benz hood ornament and giraffe bones still exist.

 

Now, personally, I am all for poignant, less than happy endings. I'd be OK if all the main characters died heroically and there was a proper second Breaking, with our last glimpse being of a ragged group of survivors about to start anew at the end of it, with one of them maybe being a descendant of a main character. In fact, I would even prefer such an ending.

 

What I hate are bait-and-switch endings, usually employed by the authors who write loosely connected novels set in the same universe. They still like to go for a happy ending with nobody of the heroes getting killed on-screen... but in the books set further in the time-line it turns out that their triumph was meaningless, they all died early and sometimes horrible deaths and in fact the things are now worse than ever. This always struck me as somewhat dishonest.

Grittiness should be consistent - either have it on-screen and then the bleak future will be fitting or have your unicorns and rainbows the whole way and at least leave the future open.

 

And if Avi's vision were the true future it would be exactly the same - everything seems to point at a care-bear ending to the series proper, with TG being a pretty short affair, no proper Breaking, most main and primary characters surviving and hooking up, cooperation between various groups, etc. And for what? So that all of them and/or their descendants could be killed/enslaved at a later date and the 1000-year Reich can actually happen? This seems downright sadistic and completely alien to the series direction until now.

 

 

The Seanchan becoming the dominant force on the planet is a good ending. They hold the most promise for progress and advancement, likewise life under the Seanchan is much better, safer and more comfortable for the average individuals. We always get to hear how happy the peasants and common workers seem to look under Seanchan rule. The Seanchan bring order, stability and prosperity; while at the same time allowing autonomous self-rule under the safety of the grand army. Anarchy, chaos and feuding nobles inciting civil wars become an alien worry for those it hits hardest.

 

The only parties set to lose out in a Seanchan ascendancy are channelers and nobles. But in my honest opinion I'd rather have the proletariat and lower echelons of the population living a good life instead of merely the nobles/channelling cliques living an elevated lifestyle at the expense of the lower classes. It's the greater good for the masses to be happy, than for the select few elites to be happy.

[Kidicaris]

There is no reason for channeling to disappear in the 4th Age. Our own Age is supposed to be either the 7th or the 1st (though since there are no Portal stones around just yet, that's a bit less likely). Which is why some very rare items from it, like the Mercedes-Benz hood ornament and giraffe bones still exist.

 

Now, personally, I am all for poignant, less than happy endings. I'd be OK if all the main characters died heroically and there was a proper second Breaking, with our last glimpse being of a ragged group of survivors about to start anew at the end of it, with one of them maybe being a descendant of a main character. In fact, I would even prefer such an ending.

 

What I hate are bait-and-switch endings, usually employed by the authors who write loosely connected novels set in the same universe. They still like to go for a happy ending with nobody of the heroes getting killed on-screen... but in the books set further in the time-line it turns out that their triumph was meaningless, they all died early and sometimes horrible deaths and in fact the things are now worse than ever. This always struck me as somewhat dishonest.

Grittiness should be consistent - either have it on-screen and then the bleak future will be fitting or have your unicorns and rainbows the whole way and at least leave the future open.

 

And if Avi's vision were the true future it would be exactly the same - everything seems to point at a care-bear ending to the series proper, with TG being a pretty short affair, no proper Breaking, most main and primary characters surviving and hooking up, cooperation between various groups, etc. And for what? So that all of them and/or their descendants could be killed/enslaved at a later date and the 1000-year Reich can actually happen? This seems downright sadistic and completely alien to the series direction until now.

 

Although I would assume that Aviendha's vision of the future was always planned by RJ, all of BS's worlds are set in these kinds of dark, twisted, broken and bleak settings--so he managed to write one disturbing enough to stir us WoT readers up. I think this ghost of Christmas Future that has visited Aviendha is just a plot device to give her character some stage light. Until this moment Aviendha was unremarkable (not to say uninteresting though), she was one of many Aiel, one of many temperamental females, one of many strong channelers, hell, one of many fiances/wives. She had above average martial skills, and a Talent to scry ter'angreal (a very useful ability that we were rarely shown). This new plot twist has given her special significance, and I think I'll go along for the ride confident that Aviendha will help to make the future better.

 

Why? Because you are right, RJ isn't the kind of author who would do this to his world, hello he had a bigger problem killing our heroes than Rand/LTT does with letting women die.

 

This isn't to say the Seanchan aren't troubling. I guess the red tape in the White Tower, the apparent lack of a WT BT union, and maybe a general complacency among Randland channelers--most who never knew a'dam, made the continent ripe for a Seanchan sweep. Especially if you consider a unified Seanchan and the use of a greater damane force(from the homeland)--with Traveling.

[Tiinker]

Well if you look up Towers of Midnight in the glossary it says that the time will come ladidadida and that Tuon (i guess) will fix the problem with the damane. I'm just guessing damane here because of the fact that the Towers of Midnight was where the first damane was leashed or where the first adam was created, can't really remember. Either way once that happens the Seanchan won't be able to turn the Aiel channelers against them meaning that the whole viewing is wrong therefore this can't happen. Voila..

[Evoke]

Aviendha saw what courses in history (events prior to her visions - i.e. pre Tarmon Gaidon) caused the Aiel to follow this path of decay. She learned that the Aiel lost faith in Rand because he knelt to Fortuna and was unable to reclaim the captured Wise Ones. She saw that he left the Aiel out of the Dragons Peace and that he left them without a new purpose to pursue beyond warfare. These are crucial factors that will reshape the Aiel and bring them demise at their own hands.

 

Aviendha now knows that if Rand makes these choices, he will leave the Aiel free to unwittingly bring the enslavement of the entire world and their own destruction.

 

There is no room for a remnant of a remnant in this future. All Aiel will be enslaved or killed and those who escape will forget everything being Aiel means.

 

This is what the columns prepared Aviendha for. The columns have always been there to guide the Aiel, and now that they're no longer needed to show them the past in order to prepare them for Tarmon Gaidon they've been reset to prepare them for the future.

[Qyburn]

Whats interesting is that if what Aviendha sees is irreversable, then Tarmon Gai'don is guarranteed to be won. I dont think a ter'angreal could know what prophecies cant even agree on. At the very end of ToM is something from the prophecy of the shadow. It conflicts with the prophecies of the dragon. Plus theres Seanchan fortellings, other fortellings, aiel car'a'carn stuff, min's viewings, etc. They cant all be true.

 

 

I dont think the futur of aiel will be explicitly written about though. When aveindha thinks "Can I change it? If I cant, will that stop me from trying?" it kind of closes the issue. Surely not much of the storyline will take place after TG. If rand wins, aviendha and the aiel will try to make sure the aiel have a bright futur, but I doubt anything will be confirmed.

 

 

It was a heart-wrenching chapter though. The part where the aiel's last home in the waste is raided was the worst. When aviendha sees a corpse and mentions he was a Stone Dog, one of few aiel who still belong to a clan, the tears started flowing T.T

[Baelorn]

Whats interesting is that if what Aviendha sees is irreversable, then Tarmon Gai'don is guarranteed to be won. I dont think a ter'angreal could know what prophecies cant even agree on. At the very end of ToM is something from the prophecy of the shadow. It conflicts with the prophecies of the dragon. Plus theres Seanchan fortellings, other fortellings, aiel car'a'carn stuff, min's viewings, etc. They cant all be true.

 

The viewings and the Ter'angreal work on the basis that there is still a Pattern to read(as explained to Corele). The LB can still be lost.

 

I'm not sure how the conflicting Light/Shadow prophecies work. The Shadow prophecies are probably more for gathering followers though. Much easier to do if you can say "Look, it says we're going to win!".

 

I'm sure almost all Seanchan prophecies are manipulated by the Shadow. It's the only thing that makes sense imo.

[f3llyn]

Well obviously it's not going to happen that way as there wouldn't be a point to even having a last book. It would be Good Game and that's all she wrote.

 

So things will change, but what exactly? I don't see thousands of aiel all just deciding to go back to following the Way. What's more I don't see how the Wise Ones could even convince them to as well. That seems like it would have to be down to the individuals to decide to do.

 

However I am certain that Rand bowing to the Seanchan isn't going to happen for several reasons. The least of which is Mat having a part to play and affecting Tuon somehow.

[kes]

What I hate are bait-and-switch endings, usually employed by the authors who write loosely connected novels set in the same universe. They still like to go for a happy ending with nobody of the heroes getting killed on-screen... but in the books set further in the time-line it turns out that their triumph was meaningless, they all died early and sometimes horrible deaths and in fact the things are now worse than ever. This always struck me as somewhat dishonest.

Grittiness should be consistent - either have it on-screen and then the bleak future will be fitting or have your unicorns and rainbows the whole way and at least leave the future open.

 

to be honest, I disagree. The Ages seem to pass in extended chaos and violence. The end of the Aiel is sort of perfect for that. It might be miserable but it seems to be a proper way to begin a new Age - a war where channelers and cannons and "lightbringers" take over. Once small arms arise, the Raven kingdom will pretty much lose their ability to hold onto unwilling colonies for the most part without devoting a ton of channelers to counterbalance guerilla warfare (and the rogue Asha'man are still out there too)

 

 

The Seanchan becoming the dominant force on the planet is a good ending. They hold the most promise for progress and advancement, likewise life under the Seanchan is much better, safer and more comfortable for the average individuals. We always get to hear how happy the peasants and common workers seem to look under Seanchan rule. The Seanchan bring order, stability and prosperity; while at the same time allowing autonomous self-rule under the safety of the grand army. Anarchy, chaos and feuding nobles inciting civil wars become an alien worry for those it hits hardest.

 

The only parties set to lose out in a Seanchan ascendancy are channelers and nobles. But in my honest opinion I'd rather have the proletariat and lower echelons of the population living a good life instead of merely the nobles/channelling cliques living an elevated lifestyle at the expense of the lower classes. It's the greater good for the masses to be happy, than for the select few elites to be happy.

 

Agreed. People forget that the Aiel are pretty savage when not reigned in by prophecy and the Dragon. Neither kingdom is truly perfect, but frankly (and this is my American political bent showing), no monarchy in Randland can be just by definition since they rule by force and not consent anyway. Rand is a bit of an exception since he can ACTUALLY claim divine mandate.

[Evoke]

And American rule is Just

 

Anyway, lets not get sidetracked.

 

This is something that comes up time and time again (with the turning of the Wheel.) People seem adamant at misunderstanding the fact that even with fortellings, visions and prophesy the Last Battle may still be lost. The Pattern weaves as it wills, showing us what will or may come to past Post Tarmon Gaidon. However if the Last Battle is lost then the Pattern will be unraveled, and everything is mute.

 

Prophesies have merit independent of where they come from. The exception are those twisted by the Shadow for the sake of sowing chaos. For instance Ishamael added a few to the prophesies of the Seanchan but they still have true ones such as the one about the Wolf King carrying the Hammer.

 

Another obscure prophesy is the one held secret by King Paitar of Arafel.

[Jaglover]

There are many doubting that the vision of Seanchen total victory is possible given the superioty of circles and other factors.

 

I would say it is possible but a number of events need to occur for this to happen.

 

The years of peace after the last battle are crucial to allow the reconquest of the home continent and with travelling distance is irrelevant so the full resources of that continent can be used in the war. The return was only a fraction of their strength due to the limitations of travel by sailing vessel.

 

Secondly is the unchanged traditional nature of the Aiel, they have very tough warriors, but unless they adapt to the age of gunpowder and the use of OP in battle they are finished. Imagine if you will battles against the Seanchen where, at least at first, the wise ones do not participate, because it is not traditional. Furthermore there is no appetite that I can see for experimentation with the OP and making it a better weapon for them. In contrast if they had spent the years of peace fully training all of their female AND male channelers for war and learnt the new technologies then, by themselves they could have won.

 

Thirdly is the traditional nature of the White Tower. Released from their oaths they, in combination with the other nations, could defeat the Seanchen. Confined by them they are doomed to fail. Successful combat using circles depends on projecting overwhelming force crucially at some distance. The whole point is that the individuals concerned WON’T feel at risk from individual Damane. Egwene, unbound by the oaths, and with a circle of thirteen, is more effective than the whole of the WT.

 

A combined alliance of Aiel, western nations, White tower and Black Tower could defeat the Seanchen easily. IF that is their channellers return to the tactics and customs of the age of legends. Without that, and fighting them piecemeal, defeat is inevitable.

[johthohar]

And American rule is Just

 

As opposed to any other government? Lol

However if the Last Battle is lost then the Pattern will be unraveled, and everything is mute.

 

I'm sure you mean "moot".

[Jaglover]

 

Alrighty... hmm, how about the Roman Empire? Were they all 'fucking evil'? Egypt? Sparta? I can come up tons of examples if you so desire... Again, consider the context. You are not in 2010 of our world. You are in the third age of the WOT, a feudal society more akin to the dark ages, with most people poorly educated and a noble, ruling class. As previously pointed out, there is no concept of universal human rights, equal rights, democracy, etc. Amador kills channelers. Tear forbids them. Shara keeps them ignorant and tatooted to be identified. The Aes Sedai themselves hound channelers who are not associated with the White Tower, and use force to prevent other groups from existing. They are the law of the land in their territory of Tar Valon, and even a woman who makes the mistake of wearing a shawl in the city can be subject to an unpleasant experience.

 

How about the Aiel, who enslave Cairhein people when found and sell them as slaves, simply for being decendents of people who lived in Lamen's kingdom. Is that justifiable? Why are we not repulsed by the Aiel?

 

All that I'm trying to point out is that other nations have equally horrible practices when viewed from a modern context. However, not so horrible when viewed from the perspective of the world of the WOT.

 

They are not in a 'feudal society' more akin to the dark ages at all. In terms of the level of development of their society I would put them at the level of Britain circa 1800.

 

For a number of reasons.

 

1. The level of industrial/technological development is quite high and they seem close to an industrial revolution with the right circumstances.

 

2. There are no serfs as far as I can see. Yes nobles rule, but the peasantry are not effectively their slaves and required to stay on their land.

 

3. The level of thought and discourse seems post enlightenment to me.

 

4. There is widespread literacy. The two rivers lot come from a small isolated village and all seem to be able to read and write.

 

One of the grat things about the WOT world is that it is not simply another clone of mediaveal europe.

[Agitel]

I like how some people are calling Seanchan rule just as bad as complete annihilation.

 

The Wheel turns, the Seanchan will end/evolve/progress/collapse and new things will come even if what Avi sees is accurate. It's like everyone's forgetting Rand's epiphany at the top of Dragonmount where he shouted a great resounding WHY as he despaired about the cycle, about wars, about how men will always be men feuding and backstabbing at times.

[Evoke]

I like how some people are calling Seanchan rule just as bad as complete annihilation.

 

The Wheel turns, the Seanchan will end/evolve/progress/collapse and new things will come even if what Avi sees is accurate. It's like everyone's forgetting Rand's epiphany at the top of Dragonmount where he shouted a great resounding WHY as he despaired about the cycle, about wars, about how men will always be men feuding and backstabbing at times.

 

For the Aiel, they're much the same. In fact, for most people - Seanchan rule would mean that their own beliefs and traditions. Their own view of the world and sense of morals would become subservient to that of the Seanchan.

[BladeDancer]

 

[...]

 

Clearly this is the purpose or function of the ter'angreal. To allow the user to see the future (via their descendants POVs). What would be the purpose of a ter'angreal that did this? The reason is that the future visions can be altered in the present - the future seen is alterable.

 

 

Yeah, I like the entirety of what you wrote, but why do you assume that the purpose of the ter'angreal is to reveal and thus allow the future to be altered?

 

I've written in this thread if you are curious to my input....

 

My theory about the columns ter'angreals is as follows...

 

It just seemed more likely to me that the column ter'angreals main purpose is to view the future (via generation stepping POVs) rather than the past. There is another ter'angreal at Rhuidean which gives prospective Wise Ones glimpses of possible futures - so there is a clear theme of Rhuidean's ter'angreals offering views of the future in order to guide the users (the Aiel). You can see how useful these would be. It seemed apparent to me that the columns ter'angreal had future viewing as it's main purpose because this is the setting it 'switched' to immediately after Aviendha tried to use her Talent (of understanding the purpose and usage of ter'angreal) on it. I assumed that the last people who understand what the ter'angreal did, the Jenn Aiel (because they had AOL Aes Sedai with them), were also able to use the ter'angreal properly.

 

Now that Aviendha has shown what the columns ter'angreal does, the Aiel chapters in TSR make more sense. Specifically (TSR Ch 25) the ones where Rand is using the ter'angreal to view the Jenn Aiel meeting with the Clan Chiefs of the day. The Jenn Aiel had to stage an intervention because they had used the columns ter'angreal to view the future generations POV and found that the Aiel would die out within 3 generations. The 3 generations phrase is significant imo, as it does not tell a timeframe in actual years but in terms of generations. Using the column ter'angreals does not always allow the user to tell timeframes of the various visions in precise numbers of years but it does in terms of number of generations. The timeframe being specified in numbers of generations rather than a more precise timeframe heavily indicates to me, that this foretelling was carried out by using the column ter'angreals in the same way that Aviendha does much later.

 

So the Jenn Aiel set up a system of educating the prospective clan-chiefs that would become a tradition and rite of passage for future Clan-Chief candidates. It was a very specific thing to do and reveals that they had actual foresight in very real terms. The mechanism of educating the clan-chiefs about the past was the column ter'angreals. These were switched to a mode such that usage was defaulted to backward viewing (of previous generations) enabling the education about the Aiel origin/sin. This tradition of educating the Aiel Clan-Chiefs also just so happened to be the way of rebinding the Aiel to the service of the Dragon Reborn via the prophecy of the He Who Comes With the Dawn. This was not a coincidence.

 

It seems almost certain to me that all this was done by the Jenn Aiel using the future viewing ability of the column ter'angreals. There are too many specific things done in setting up the Rhuidean traditional rites of passage that proved to be vital for Rand to become the Car'acarn. It is clear the Jenn Aiel have clear foresight about what needs to be set-up to make this happen. We know that various Prophecies can be made by those with Foretelling or even Dreaming to see glimpses of future events but it seems more likely to me that all this foresight was because the Jenn Aiel used this future viewing abilities of the columns ter'angreal which they had at their disposal. The Jenn Aiel had a machine in the middle of their city that enabled them to effectively see the future (via the generation stepping POV effect) and they knew how to use it (unlike the future generations of Aiel who followed them). It seems obvious that this is the method they used to predict the future Car'acarn.

 

I hope the above is logical and makes sense.

[mikael]

n1 Bladedancer. I agree with Evoke at #483 as well.

[Aagaard]

It is pretty easy to conclude that this is only a possible future, and the fact that Aviendha has already seen this future has already changed that future.

 

It would come down to something as simple as her telling her children of this vision. Then when the day comes where the children are asked whether or not they think it a good idea to engange the Seanchan army, they would say no.

[Guest Ishu161]

 

[...]

 

Clearly this is the purpose or function of the ter'angreal. To allow the user to see the future (via their descendants POVs). What would be the purpose of a ter'angreal that did this? The reason is that the future visions can be altered in the present - the future seen is alterable.

 

 

Yeah, I like the entirety of what you wrote, but why do you assume that the purpose of the ter'angreal is to reveal and thus allow the future to be altered?

 

I've written in this thread if you are curious to my input....

 

My theory about the columns ter'angreals is as follows...

 

It just seemed more likely to me that the column ter'angreals main purpose is to view the future (via generation stepping POVs) rather than the past. There is another ter'angreal at Rhuidean which gives prospective Wise Ones glimpses of possible futures - so there is a clear theme of Rhuidean's ter'angreals offering views of the future in order to guide the users (the Aiel). You can see how useful these would be. It seemed apparent to me that the columns ter'angreal had future viewing as it's main purpose because this is the setting it 'switched' to immediately after Aviendha tried to use her Talent (of understanding the purpose and usage of ter'angreal) on it. I assumed that the last people who understand what the ter'angreal did, the Jenn Aiel (because they had AOL Aes Sedai with them), were also able to use the ter'angreal properly.

 

Now that Aviendha has shown what the columns ter'angreal does, the Aiel chapters in TSR make more sense. Specifically (TSR Ch 25) the ones where Rand is using the ter'angreal to view the Jenn Aiel meeting with the Clan Chiefs of the day. The Jenn Aiel had to stage an intervention because they had used the columns ter'angreal to view the future generations POV and found that the Aiel would die out within 3 generations. The 3 generations phrase is significant imo, as it does not tell a timeframe in actual years but in terms of generations. Using the column ter'angreals does not always allow the user to tell timeframes of the various visions in precise numbers of years but it does in terms of number of generations. The timeframe being specified in numbers of generations rather than a more precise timeframe heavily indicates to me, that this foretelling was carried out by using the column ter'angreals in the same way that Aviendha does much later.

 

So the Jenn Aiel set up a system of educating the prospective clan-chiefs that would become a tradition and rite of passage for future Clan-Chief candidates. It was a very specific thing to do and reveals that they had actual foresight in very real terms. The mechanism of educating the clan-chiefs about the past was the column ter'angreals. These were switched to a mode such that usage was defaulted to backward viewing (of previous generations) enabling the education about the Aiel origin/sin. This tradition of educating the Aiel Clan-Chiefs also just so happened to be the way of rebinding the Aiel to the service of the Dragon Reborn via the prophecy of the He Who Comes With the Dawn. This was not a coincidence.

 

It seems almost certain to me that all this was done by the Jenn Aiel using the future viewing ability of the column ter'angreals. There are too many specific things done in setting up the Rhuidean traditional rites of passage that proved to be vital for Rand to become the Car'acarn. It is clear the Jenn Aiel have clear foresight about what needs to be set-up to make this happen. We know that various Prophecies can be made by those with Foretelling or even Dreaming to see glimpses of future events but it seems more likely to me that all this foresight was because the Jenn Aiel used this future viewing abilities of the columns ter'angreal which they had at their disposal. The Jenn Aiel had a machine in the middle of their city that enabled them to effectively see the future (via the generation stepping POV effect) and they knew how to use it (unlike the future generations of Aiel who followed them). It seems obvious that this is the method they used to predict the future Car'acarn.

 

I hope the above is logical and makes sense.

 

Interesting theory. But too far-fetched IMHO. I'm inclined to think that the ter'angreal that the wise ones apprantices go, the one Aviendha went in, was always meant to show the past. and with the other one showing the future, they would make the perfect pair...opposites meant for the wise ones to have a warning about the possible future, and the terrible knowledge of the past.

 

If the Jenn Aiel knew about the future of the Aiel, I'm fairly certain there would've been dissension on a major scale among them. They would know that in the future, the Da'shain Aiel left the way of the leaf and turned into warriors. This would've resulted in a situation similar to what happened when Rand revealed the Aiel their past. Sure, some of them would've understood its significance, but I don't think they would've been able to put this knowledge out of their minds for the greater good. And we see this that TSR chapter, when one of the Jenn refuses to acknowledge his own son after he(the son( kills someone to protect his people.

 

I'm pretty disappointed by the bleak future of the Aiel we saw in this book. If the new breaking that Rand will cause means the Seanchan will take over, that is not only dissatisfying, but anti-climactic. The first breaking saw mountains leveled, new oceans rising, and almost all the major cities in the world died...as a result of the destruction caused by the hundred companions and other male channelers. Granted, this time is meant to be better, as there are sure to be less mistakes(I hope), and that Rand remembers what he did wrong last time, but this Seanchan takeover....I dunno.

 

I still hate the Seanchan simply because of the future visions of Aviendha though, and I hope it never happens (contradictory to what I said above maybe...but meh...) That chapter brought tears to my eyes.

[NetSlider]

Finally came around to the boards (I was down with pneumonia for 5 days; fever of 103 and nightmares about...WOT and Aiel . Not kidding, my wife actually thought I finally tipped over and lost it).

 

Anyways, if Seanchen actually become one world government it's not too bad. Well, if they are willing to abolish slavery and stop exterminating whole people (if they actually will do that to Aiel). After all, in the AoL it seems that there were more city states all united under one government - AS. But here is a problem with one world government (something that most people don't see I think) - a revolution is almost completely impossible. And I'm kind of a Mat fellow - rules? What rules? REVOLUTION!!!! So, my five cents on the issue - I WOULD RATHER DIE UNDER THE VICTORY OF THE SHADOW THAN LET SOME SLOW-TALKING, PEOPLE CHAINING (as much as I hate the Tower at this point), FROG EATIN...(oh wait, wrong peoples ; i actually like them and have a lot of respect for them) RULE THE BLOODY WORLD!!!!!!!!!!! I second the motion that if that's really going to happen I'm becoming an actual DF (really, maybe even greyman).

[Beer Rot]

It's implied in the viewing Tuon almost made peace with the Aiel and then died. As long as she has Mat, I think she'll be okay, and from seeing how Mat and the King of Altra behave seems to be making her think. Plus, I have a feeling if she ends up channeling, which should happen (but is their time???) then A. she'll literally be the Empiroress who lives forever (or at least 500+ years) and B. bond mat with a Warder Bond. Mat's reaction when Moraine mentioned the bond, not to mention his repeated comments that warders are idiots, would make that fairly ironic

 

Yeah, I really dont see thhat future happening. There has been toooooo much emphasis on the sul'dam being able to channel which shoudl bring down the Seanchan a'dam empire. Plus, there is Egwene's dream of Seanchan woman helping her and handing her the a'dam.

 

I'm almost certain that's Egeanin, who's in TV by the end of the book.

 

When Rand/Moir/Mat first go to Rhuidean, they're told that no one survives a second trip through the columns. I don't think Avi's gift did anything to them, its just their function. Seems obvious... it would take a strong man/woman to see where the Aiel came from, but to see what they would become? Only Avi could survive that, imo, especially she is the only one that would see HOW they became that way.

[Evoke]

To a greater extent I agree with you BladeDancer - pretty obvious if you've read my theories on the subject. The only thing in error is that the Aes Sedai are not from the Age of Legends. This has been confirmed by Jordan.

 

The other is if their main purpose is to view the future or the past. I doubt we'll ever get this answer though. What we can agree on though is that whether or not they're meant to view the future or past, their main objective is to prepare the Aiel. They do not work for any other people but the Aiel so this link is there.

 

As to why the Aiel didn't use them to view their future prior to Rhuiedan the answer lies in their constant traveling. The Jenn didn't stop moving until they came to Rhuidean. As to why they chose that spot is also left unanswered, most likely that answer lies in foretellings, dreams or some other premonition.

 

One of the many themes Jordan throws around is that change is good. The Aiel are very stubborn in their ways and this is the kick they need to get their shiat together.

 

As to whether this future could be avoided if Avinedha simply told her kids not to be dicks, I doubt that's enough. The Aiel as a people feel betrayed by Rand. Simply telling her kids will not be enough to lay their bitterness aside. Their future would at best only be postponed.