Discuss Aviendha's Arc

[dwn]

My apologies for my last post. Just read something that provoked some thoughts at the beginning of the thread before I skipped to the end and didn't realize how far (relatively) off things had moved discussion-wise. Anyway, whole thread was TLDR so sorry if this has been brought up already (I'm sure it has) but I was thinking we should be talking about what the difference is between the first ter'angreal the Wise Ones pass through and Aviendha's second trip through the columns (aside from the obvious differences of hundreds of possible futures and just one and the fact that the columns jump decades at a time and the other ter'angreal seems to be more specific). Is the second column trip a more likely outcome? Is it certain? If so does it negate anything one might have seen in the first ter'angreal? Etc....

 

As an aside I want to add that, while I don't judge anybody (or try not to) for using them... I LOATHE the cutsie terms that have become so popular when referring to people/places/things in WOT. Particularly "Ishy" and "Randland". I don't know why.... Just hate them and they consistently make me cringe. Totally off topic but still... Just sayin.

Well, like you said, one gives hints about your future to help them make key decisions. And the other shows the past of their ancestors, and now their future ancestors as well. Though we don't know if the columns are broken now having fulfilled their ultimate use, will revert to their previous state of showing the past, or if they always did show the future upon entering a second time.

 

And I agree with you about the cutesy names.

 

Randland, Ishy, Moggy, Messy, Eggy... sheesh, I can't even remember them all, now. They've been around for at least 15 years so, silly or not, they probably aren't going anywhere.

 

I do find it a bit odd that we don't have a good in-world name for the non-Waste non-Shara part of the continent. Some people use the 'Westlands' or the Aiel 'Wetlands', but those don't really sit well with me.

 

-- dwn

[BlueSun]

I finally read through all 20 pages of this topic and I'm gonna touch a couple of points:

 

1) Aviendha's revelation is the absolute truth of what will happen in the future. Remember: this is not a Foretelling or a Dream or a god-awful Prophecy that can be open to 39 different interpretations and still won't make sense until after an event occurs. No, the means for Aviendha's vision, the Tan'greal, has already been established as a reliable tool; neither clan chiefs or Wise Ones have raised a doubt, and even after Rand tells of the Aiel's sin, the issue of whether or not the Tan'greal shows accurately is never an issue. In fact, that Tan'greal provides the ONLY method in the entire series to gain a crisp, clean reveal of a time that is not now....

 

Aviendha herself doesn't question whether the pillars are working properly, nor does she note anything odd about her visions, like a mist-like insubstantiality that has been established to illustrate a world of "What-if". Furthermore, her vision was identical in clarity and structure to what we were told that Rand experienced, and we saw through her bloodline just like Rand did. Her reaction to "Seeing What Will Be" is as profound and shattering as "Seeing What Was" was before He-Who-Comes-With-The-Dawn. (Note: Apparently, I wasn't the only person to have been shaken as deeply as Aviendha. Bravo, RJ/BS, for the totally unexpected and powerful reveal...)

 

 

Sorry, folks, but what she saw in those pillars is What Will Be.

[Evoke]

 

Randland, Ishy, Moggy, Messy, Eggy... sheesh, I can't even remember them all, now. They've been around for at least 15 years so, silly or not, they probably aren't going anywhere.

 

I do find it a bit odd that we don't have a good in-world name for the non-Waste non-Shara part of the continent. Some people use the 'Westlands' or the Aiel 'Wetlands', but those don't really sit well with me.

 

-- dwn

 

Agreed. I've long waited for a true name of the main continent to be revealed.

[Evoke]

I finally read through all 20 pages of this topic and I'm gonna touch a couple of points:

 

1) Aviendha's revelation is the absolute truth of what will happen in the future. Remember: this is not a Foretelling or a Dream or a god-awful Prophecy that can be open to 39 different interpretations and still won't make sense until after an event occurs. No, the means for Aviendha's vision, the Tan'greal, has already been established as a reliable tool; neither clan chiefs or Wise Ones have raised a doubt, and even after Rand tells of the Aiel's sin, the issue of whether or not the Tan'greal shows accurately is never an issue. In fact, that Tan'greal provides the ONLY method in the entire series to gain a crisp, clean reveal of a time that is not now....

 

Aviendha herself doesn't question whether the pillars are working properly, nor does she note anything odd about her visions, like a mist-like insubstantiality that has been established to illustrate a world of "What-if". Furthermore, her vision was identical in clarity and structure to what we were told that Rand experienced, and we saw through her bloodline just like Rand did. Her reaction to "Seeing What Will Be" is as profound and shattering as "Seeing What Was" was before He-Who-Comes-With-The-Dawn. (Note: Apparently, I wasn't the only person to have been shaken as deeply as Aviendha. Bravo, RJ/BS, for the totally unexpected and powerful reveal...)

 

 

Sorry, folks, but what she saw in those pillars is What Will Be.

 

The main use of the pillars has always been as a guide for the Aiel to prepare them for a future prophesied to break them. If the clan chiefs hadn't been prepared they may have fallen to the bleakness like so many Aiel who aren't strong enough do. However we've only ever seen it used to show the past, never the future. It's too early to tell if what Aviendha saw is unavoidable or not. For what would be the point of showing a future depicting the annihilation of an entire people if not to prepare those who come before so that this future won't come to pass. Perhaps the Jenn Aiel used it to show the future of their people and knowing what will happen set plans in motion to prevent it by telling the clan chiefs that they had to pass through.

[Jeangray]

There is no reason for channeling to disappear in the 4th Age. Our own Age is supposed to be either the 7th or the 1st (though since there are no Portal stones around just yet, that's a bit less likely). Which is why some very rare items from it, like the Mercedes-Benz hood ornament and giraffe bones still exist.

 

Now, personally, I am all for poignant, less than happy endings. I'd be OK if all the main characters died heroically and there was a proper second Breaking, with our last glimpse being of a ragged group of survivors about to start anew at the end of it, with one of them maybe being a descendant of a main character. In fact, I would even prefer such an ending.

 

What I hate are bait-and-switch endings, usually employed by the authors who write loosely connected novels set in the same universe. They still like to go for a happy ending with nobody of the heroes getting killed on-screen... but in the books set further in the time-line it turns out that their triumph was meaningless, they all died early and sometimes horrible deaths and in fact the things are now worse than ever. This always struck me as somewhat dishonest.

Grittiness should be consistent - either have it on-screen and then the bleak future will be fitting or have your unicorns and rainbows the whole way and at least leave the future open.

 

And if Avi's vision were the true future it would be exactly the same - everything seems to point at a care-bear ending to the series proper, with TG being a pretty short affair, no proper Breaking, most main and primary characters surviving and hooking up, cooperation between various groups, etc. And for what? So that all of them and/or their descendants could be killed/enslaved at a later date and the 1000-year Reich can actually happen? This seems downright sadistic and completely alien to the series direction until now.

[anthonypero]

Things will NOT survive the 7th age. In order for there to be a first age nothing must be remembered from the time before or it could not be the beginning. That alone discounts anything surviving from the previous 5th age. Not only that but myths and legends fade within a couple ages, there is a reason the second age is barely known, and the first age only has whispers about it. Therefore, our age = the first age.

 

Sparkers can't be bred out either, they are in fact less common due to the lack of channelers having children, but in over 3,000 of that happening in the wetlands they still exists, which invalidates that point since it wouldn't have been anywhere near 3,000 years based on the POV jumps.

 

Finally, it may be a musket, or a shocklance, unfortunately we have no idea which it could be so I won't argue this point further, it was irrelevant to my main point anyway.

 

Um... i think the numbers of the Ages are arbitrary. Can you tell me where you are getting your information about the 7th age being total Mayan like destruction so people no longer remember? Because the books condradict you. In fact, every book contradicts you:

 

"The Wheel of time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again"

 

The key phrase here is when the Age that gave it birth comes again. Myths of Rand (Christ) and Mat (Odin) and Perrin (Thor) will be forgotten when the Age that gave it birth (the 3rd Age) comes again. NOT at some arbitrary 1st age restart.

 

And as far as it taking 3000 years for channelers to become less common in the Westlands... um, no one was actively destroying both male and female channelers during that time.

[didymos]

And as far as it taking 3000 years for channelers to become less common in the Westlands... um, no one was actively destroying both male and female channelers during that time.

 

They were also only gentling sparkers nearly all of the time, not all of whom were unmarried or childless.

[anthonypero]

And as far as it taking 3000 years for channelers to become less common in the Westlands... um, no one was actively destroying both male and female channelers during that time.

 

They were also only gentling sparkers nearly all of the time, not all of whom were unmarried or childless.

 

Huh? Moiraine seemed to think that Sparkers were much more rare in the Tower than the others.

[Agitel]

I realized I left out a very important part of my argument. Following the Dragon out of the Waste will destroy the Aiel. Only a remnant of a remnant will be saved. This destruction will probably come after the last battle, and this vision shows it pretty clearly. So, how will the remnant be saved? Maybe Rand and Aviendha take some Aiel somewhere else? I don't know. But obviously there were waaaaaay too many Aiel left alive in Parda's vision to be considered a remnant.

 

Perhaps the Shaido are the remnant, which is the opposite of what I thought before. They're the only ones who returned to the Waste, maybe they're the only ones who'll keep to themselves and rededicate themselves to the old ways. I doubt they'd enter the war with the "wetlander" Aiel. I don't know what the Seanchan will do with them, whether they'd eventually conquer them, or assimilate them, whether they'll consider them different or not.

[johthohar]

Well, like you said, one gives hints about your future to help them make key decisions. And the other shows the past of their ancestors, and now their future ancestors as well. Though we don't know if the columns are broken now having fulfilled their ultimate use, will revert to their previous state of showing the past, or if they always did show the future upon entering a second time.

 

Someone implied that Aviendha changed the function of the columns when she touched them after her first passage as you seem to be doing. Someone else responded to that that her Talent had nothing to do with "changing" ter'angreal but somehow "reading" their purpose.

 

Sorry, didn't want to search through the thread to find the relevant posts but wanted to give credit before saying that I agree with the latter. I don't think anything about the ter'angreal its self changed when Aviendha passed through it the second time. I think that the ultimate purpose of this particular ter'angreal is to show the user glimpses of their ancestors during the first use (obviously) and a glimpse of their possible (and I stress possible) ancestry upon the second use. I don't hold with the theory that this future is inevitable. But I digress. After the first to uses I think the ter'angreal is useless to that particular person. One thing I was kind of confused about was how (if I'm remembering correctly *checks text.......* yep, I am.) Aviendha saw the first vision when outside of the columns. Was it maybe because she was touching one of the columns before she took the first step away?

 

And I agree with you about the cutesy names.

 

THANK YOU! Haha! The one that I take the most issue with is Ishamael's apparent "nick name". To me, he is one of the most bad ass villains in the history of fiction. He's hugely powerful. He's not just some generic "pure evil" bad guy seeing as he only turned to the Shadow because he saw the DO's victory as inevitable and didn't see the point in fighting to prevent it. He's insanely intelligent. And people insist on calling him "Ishy" like he's some cute little digipet on your Nintendo DS. Makes me sick.

 

Randland, Ishy, Moggy, Messy, Eggy... sheesh, I can't even remember them all, now. They've been around for at least 15 years so, silly or not, they probably aren't going anywhere.

 

I do find it a bit odd that we don't have a good in-world name for the non-Waste non-Shara part of the continent. Some people use the 'Westlands' or the Aiel 'Wetlands', but those don't really sit well with me.

 

-- dwn

 

I have an suggestion. Since its ruled by an ever shifting series of monarchs and emperors(esses) who seemed determined to crap on the "common people".... Let's call it Texas.... Or Europe.

[johthohar]

I realized I left out a very important part of my argument. Following the Dragon out of the Waste will destroy the Aiel. Only a remnant of a remnant will be saved. This destruction will probably come after the last battle, and this vision shows it pretty clearly. So, how will the remnant be saved? Maybe Rand and Aviendha take some Aiel somewhere else? I don't know. But obviously there were waaaaaay too many Aiel left alive in Parda's vision to be considered a remnant.

 

Perhaps the Shaido are the remnant, which is the opposite of what I thought before. They're the only ones who returned to the Waste, maybe they're the only ones who'll keep to themselves and rededicate themselves to the old ways. I doubt they'd enter the war with the "wetlander" Aiel. I don't know what the Seanchan will do with them, whether they'd eventually conquer them, or assimilate them, whether they'll consider them different or not.

 

Hmm.... I like this interpretation. Some kind of Shaido redemption. But then if that were written it would be in a post-main series side book I think and I doubt if BS will ever find time to write any of these.

[didymos]

And as far as it taking 3000 years for channelers to become less common in the Westlands... um, no one was actively destroying both male and female channelers during that time.

 

They were also only gentling sparkers nearly all of the time, not all of whom were unmarried or childless.

 

Huh? Moiraine seemed to think that Sparkers were much more rare in the Tower than the others.

 

The Red pretty much only gentled men who sparked. I say "pretty much" because there are mentions of people teaching themselves on occasion, and also of sparkers occasionally teaching others. Anyway, what else would I mean by using the term "gentled" other than male channelers? But, yes that's kind of my point: Sparkers are rare and always were, and 99.99999...% of time they're who the Red Ajah was dealing with. However, all those learner men were still in the population, having families. And, as I said, even some sparker males would have had kids, as men can go much longer than women before they finally spark and people in Randland tend to marry young. Thom's nephew was married, for instance, and could easily have had children had he not sparked as early.

 

In other words, it'd take a hell of a lot more effort to eliminate the channeling ability than just gentling the occasional men who spark. And a lot more time, too. Which ought to be obvious given how many channelers have turned up.

[didymos]

And people insist on calling him "Ishy" like he's some cute little digipet on your Nintendo DS. Makes me sick.

 

Yes, because saving some typing time is just awful. Screw those carpal tunnel fools: full names or GTFO!

[Danvighar]

Perhaps this is the way that things are "really" meant to go down, and the the reason most everyone seems to be dead after only 17 years is that a sealing without Avi's new direction would be a flawed sealing that leads to most dying.

 

This most directly touches on a thought I had while catching up with the thread - with everyone of consequence either dead or missing or otherwise not worthy of mention....

 

Perhaps the 'backlash' from THIS Sealing means that either:

a) everyone there at Tarmon Gai'don dies, leaving only the no-names to hold things in regency until the kids grow up.

b) everyone everywhere over, say... 14 years old, is hit with an incurable 'wasting disease' that kills them off within 5-15 years

c) some Venn Diagram of a and b, so that everyone at the Last Battle gets this infection, or everyone everywhere over 14 dies, etc

 

Reasoning being, it appears that NOONE over a certain age is worthy of mention during the visions, and both the Aiel and the Seanchan - and perhaps everyone - seems to have become mockeries of what they were during the current part of the books. And perhaps that is because everyone had to rebuild their society based on a child's understanding of what the adults are doing, with perhaps under the '5-15 years to live' scenario, people were hurridly writing down and teaching their kids as much as possible about how to stay alive, rather than teaching them why things are the way they are. Even the main characters of the books don't really understand their own societies until about 20-35 years old. Tuon comes closest, but she's been specifically trained as an Heir.

 

 

***************************

 

Of course, an easier answer is - Mat and Tuon aren't the only ones who go to Seanchan after the Last Battle, so does everyone of consequence (that survives), in an attempt to restore Order. This includes the 'remnant of a remnant' and Rand and the wives, they leave the kids behind to keep them safe. 150 years later, they finish the job and come back... "Oops, what happened here? Um. They aren't MY kids. I'll just go spend another 150 years conquering the Land of Madmen or something, and let them wrangle it out between themselves".

 

*****************

 

That said, I believe the vision itself is a "most likely case if the Pattern survives, based on the situation at the time of the vision" - pre-VoG, if Rand did NOT have his epiphany, but did NOT actually break the Wheel. Based on his 'hardness', his determination to drag the world kicking and screaming to where they needed to be, his unwillingness to plan for himself post-LB, his false belief that there's no point in even trying to leave a legacy anymore, etc - this is the inevitable result, until the sea change of VoG.

[Emily_Sedai]

I finally read through all 20 pages of this topic and I'm gonna touch a couple of points:

 

1) Aviendha's revelation is the absolute truth of what will happen in the future. Remember: this is not a Foretelling or a Dream or a god-awful Prophecy that can be open to 39 different interpretations and still won't make sense until after an event occurs. No, the means for Aviendha's vision, the Tan'greal, has already been established as a reliable tool; neither clan chiefs or Wise Ones have raised a doubt, and even after Rand tells of the Aiel's sin, the issue of whether or not the Tan'greal shows accurately is never an issue. In fact, that Tan'greal provides the ONLY method in the entire series to gain a crisp, clean reveal of a time that is not now....

 

Aviendha herself doesn't question whether the pillars are working properly, nor does she note anything odd about her visions, like a mist-like insubstantiality that has been established to illustrate a world of "What-if". Furthermore, her vision was identical in clarity and structure to what we were told that Rand experienced, and we saw through her bloodline just like Rand did. Her reaction to "Seeing What Will Be" is as profound and shattering as "Seeing What Was" was before He-Who-Comes-With-The-Dawn. (Note: Apparently, I wasn't the only person to have been shaken as deeply as Aviendha. Bravo, RJ/BS, for the totally unexpected and powerful reveal...)

 

 

Sorry, folks, but what she saw in those pillars is What Will Be.

 

Agreed, so long as the pillars were in fact telling the truth about the past of the Aiel (we've always assumed that the pillars are truthful, and not some kind of fiction making device, which I *guess* is possible, though unlikely). I'd say that if the pillars showed a true past, it will show a true future because of the nature of the Wheel's universe.

 

What people seem to be forgetting is that the past IS the future, and the future IS the past. All of this has occured before. All this will happen again. Due to this, I believe that there is a lot of weight to the notion that if the past is a true vision, then the future vision will be true as well.

 

Another way of looking at it: Avi in her second trip from the pillars didn't see the future... she saw the deep, deep, deep, deep past as dictated by the weaving of the pattern.

 

Hence, in the future, the Empire will eventually dominate Randland and the waste imho.

[didymos]

What people seem to be forgetting is that the past IS the future, and the future IS the past. All of this has occured before. All this will happen again. Due to this, I believe that there is a lot of weight to the notion that if the past is a true vision, then the future vision will be true as well.

 

And what you seem to be forgetting is that things can be changed. No two iterations of the same Age are identical, and the more iterations, the greater the differences. And not all visions are certainties. That and the Pattern is currently being disrupted by the DO. Many of the things happening are not supposed to be happening. Time may be circular, but it is not eternally fixed into one unchangeable Pattern. If it were, there would be no possibility of the DO escaping. The Prophecies wouldn't say that Rand only has a chance to win.

[johthohar]

And people insist on calling him "Ishy" like he's some cute little digipet on your Nintendo DS. Makes me sick.

 

Yes, because saving some typing time is just awful. Screw those carpal tunnel fools: full names or GTFO!

Like I said before, no judgment for people who do use these names. I realize the intention was not to fluff the words up. It just annoys me. But this is probably going to start annoying people since it is COMPLETELY off topic. Haha.

[didymos]

And people insist on calling him "Ishy" like he's some cute little digipet on your Nintendo DS. Makes me sick.

 

Yes, because saving some typing time is just awful. Screw those carpal tunnel fools: full names or GTFO!

Like I said before, no judgment for people who do use these names.

 

Yeah, I know. I wasn't being serious.

[nleseul]

Agreed, so long as the pillars were in fact telling the truth about the past of the Aiel (we've always assumed that the pillars are truthful, and not some kind of fiction making device, which I *guess* is possible, though unlikely). I'd say that if the pillars showed a true past, it will show a true future because of the nature of the Wheel's universe.

 

What people seem to be forgetting is that the past IS the future, and the future IS the past. All of this has occured before. All this will happen again. Due to this, I believe that there is a lot of weight to the notion that if the past is a true vision, then the future vision will be true as well.

 

Another way of looking at it: Avi in her second trip from the pillars didn't see the future... she saw the deep, deep, deep, deep past as dictated by the weaving of the pattern.

 

You have to remember, though, that time is not only cyclical, but also branching, as indicated by the Portal Stones.

 

I've always found it simplest to imagine that the Pattern is wound around the Wheel like thread around a spool. You can follow the thread forward or backward, and you'll eventually return to roughly the same place. If you move sideways, though, you'll also end up in the same place, but one turn (or more) of the Wheel forward or backward.

 

In my view, that's what the Portal Stones do. They move you to a different iteration of the current Age, where everything has gone slightly or completely differently due to different choices being made.

 

So, if that's correct, the columns might indeed have been showing Avi scenes from far in the past, but this iteration of the Age might go slightly or completely different, depending on what Avi decides to do with the information.

 

Of course, it might be a moot point anyway, if this is all leading up to the breaking of the Wheel, the final death of the Dark One, and the beginning of linear time anyway. It's entirely possible that the actual ending of the series might be something that has genuinely never ever happened before.

[Emily_Sedai]

What people seem to be forgetting is that the past IS the future, and the future IS the past. All of this has occured before. All this will happen again. Due to this, I believe that there is a lot of weight to the notion that if the past is a true vision, then the future vision will be true as well.

 

And what you seem to be forgetting is that things can be changed. No two iterations of the same Age are identical, and the more iterations, the greater the differences. And not all visions are certainties. That and the Pattern is currently being disrupted by the DO. Many of the things happening are not supposed to be happening. Time may be circular, but it is not eternally fixed into one unchangeable Pattern. If it were, there would be no possibility of the DO escaping. The Prophecies wouldn't say that Rand only has a chance to win.

 

Small changes, not major changes such as a civilization not coming into being at its appointed time, or a civilization being scattered at its appointed time. Or Lanfear deciding to not go through with her experiment to release the dark one. Or the discovery of the One Power not happening. I wouldn't consider the rise of the Empire and the downfall of the Aiel to be an 'optional' event. If the weaving didn't have to maintain certain norms, then there would be no point to Ta'veren to correct the weave to form the ages.

 

Btw, just curious... where did the idea that the more iterations, the greater the differences come from?

[WolfDream222]

I finally read through all 20 pages of this topic and I'm gonna touch a couple of points:

 

1) Aviendha's revelation is the absolute truth of what will happen in the future. Remember: this is not a Foretelling or a Dream or a god-awful Prophecy that can be open to 39 different interpretations and still won't make sense until after an event occurs. No, the means for Aviendha's vision, the Tan'greal, has already been established as a reliable tool; neither clan chiefs or Wise Ones have raised a doubt, and even after Rand tells of the Aiel's sin, the issue of whether or not the Tan'greal shows accurately is never an issue. In fact, that Tan'greal provides the ONLY method in the entire series to gain a crisp, clean reveal of a time that is not now....

 

Aviendha herself doesn't question whether the pillars are working properly, nor does she note anything odd about her visions, like a mist-like insubstantiality that has been established to illustrate a world of "What-if". Furthermore, her vision was identical in clarity and structure to what we were told that Rand experienced, and we saw through her bloodline just like Rand did. Her reaction to "Seeing What Will Be" is as profound and shattering as "Seeing What Was" was before He-Who-Comes-With-The-Dawn. (Note: Apparently, I wasn't the only person to have been shaken as deeply as Aviendha. Bravo, RJ/BS, for the totally unexpected and powerful reveal...)

 

 

Sorry, folks, but what she saw in those pillars is What Will Be.

 

I agree. If the visions were filled with sunshine and lollipops instead, would people be questioning it? It's just wishful thinking that is causing people to say this vision won't come true. Let's face it - evil is going to continue to exist after the Last Battle, regardless of the outcome. That's the whole point of the series - good vs. evil is an ongoing struggle. In fact, I think this may have been the "hook" RJ referred to in some of his interviews - an unresolved scene in the final book that would show that the world continues to go on after the Last Battle and does not remain stagnant.

[johthohar]

What people seem to be forgetting is that the past IS the future, and the future IS the past. All of this has occured before. All this will happen again. Due to this, I believe that there is a lot of weight to the notion that if the past is a true vision, then the future vision will be true as well.

 

And what you seem to be forgetting is that things can be changed. No two iterations of the same Age are identical, and the more iterations, the greater the differences. And not all visions are certainties. That and the Pattern is currently being disrupted by the DO. Many of the things happening are not supposed to be happening. Time may be circular, but it is not eternally fixed into one unchangeable Pattern. If it were, there would be no possibility of the DO escaping. The Prophecies wouldn't say that Rand only has a chance to win.

 

I like the way you put this. I agree. While the nature of the pattern is cyclical, each particular age isn't exactly the same as it's iteration in previous cycles. Its like the whisper game you play in kindergarten. The message might start out as "Carl has smelly feet." and after each child whispers it to the next in turn it comes back as "Clair is fast and really weak." I realize its not a great analogy but it just came to mind.

[Emily_Sedai]

Agreed, so long as the pillars were in fact telling the truth about the past of the Aiel (we've always assumed that the pillars are truthful, and not some kind of fiction making device, which I *guess* is possible, though unlikely). I'd say that if the pillars showed a true past, it will show a true future because of the nature of the Wheel's universe.

 

What people seem to be forgetting is that the past IS the future, and the future IS the past. All of this has occured before. All this will happen again. Due to this, I believe that there is a lot of weight to the notion that if the past is a true vision, then the future vision will be true as well.

 

Another way of looking at it: Avi in her second trip from the pillars didn't see the future... she saw the deep, deep, deep, deep past as dictated by the weaving of the pattern.

 

You have to remember, though, that time is not only cyclical, but also branching, as indicated by the Portal Stones.

 

I've always found it simplest to imagine that the Pattern is wound around the Wheel like thread around a spool. You can follow the thread forward or backward, and you'll eventually return to roughly the same place. If you move sideways, though, you'll also end up in the same place, but one turn (or more) of the Wheel forward or backward.

 

In my view, that's what the Portal Stones do. They move you to a different iteration of the current Age, where everything has gone slightly or completely differently due to different choices being made.

 

So, if that's correct, the columns might indeed have been showing Avi scenes from far in the past, but this iteration of the Age might go slightly or completely different, depending on what Avi decides to do with the information.

 

Of course, it might be a moot point anyway, if this is all leading up to the breaking of the Wheel, the final death of the Dark One, and the beginning of linear time anyway. It's entirely possible that the actual ending of the series might be something that has genuinely never ever happened before.

 

I disagree a bit with this... in my view, the portal stones take you to worlds that may have existed had other decisions been made, or things fallen out a different way. However, for the main world, the 'real' world or what have you... the weaving will guarentee that certain decisions go certain ways, such as Verin being kept from travelling. The pattern *guarenteed* that the meeting with Mat would occur, and that the Band would be around when Caemlyn is attacked. There was no decision making on Verin's part, she had to be there, that was it.

 

I guess I would say that there is only one main weaving, with slight variations of the ages. However, the main weaving is always pulled back into the main line through the use of Ta'veren.

 

Also, if not for a 'main' weaving, then why would Balefiring someone make a difference to the pattern? Why would it begin to fall apart with excessive use? All bale would do is remove a few cities from the pattern, and the weaving would go a different way. However, that's not the case... even the dark followers realize the danger if the pattern is disrupted to that extent... Just my thoughts :)

[Kidicaris]

Things will NOT survive the 7th age. In order for there to be a first age nothing must be remembered from the time before or it could not be the beginning. That alone discounts anything surviving from the previous 5th age. Not only that but myths and legends fade within a couple ages, there is a reason the second age is barely known, and the first age only has whispers about it. Therefore, our age = the first age.

 

Sparkers can't be bred out either, they are in fact less common due to the lack of channelers having children, but in over 3,000 of that happening in the wetlands they still exists, which invalidates that point since it wouldn't have been anywhere near 3,000 years based on the POV jumps.

 

Finally, it may be a musket, or a shocklance, unfortunately we have no idea which it could be so I won't argue this point further, it was irrelevant to my main point anyway.

 

 

LOL.. Channeling is not inherited! Verin implied that culling men lead to imbalance (may be it somehow affected pattern or something)...her theory..but at the end of this age channelers are popping everywhere.

 

And my first though was it was a musket. Shocklance is more like a stun gun, with Power used for stunning or killing..

 

I thought channeling was a recessive genetic trait? This would allow a population of channelers to continue to exist as long as non-sparkers kept having children--even if all sparkers were collard and never allowed to breed.

Hm, but now that I think about it the Seanchan also find EVERY non-sparker (sul'dam). But there are always the men who are not found who can be the genetic source of channeling.

 

Gah, a gun. I had not even thought about the weapon being a gun. I was fixated on the glowng orbs and had assumed those were also the weapons that shot the deadly bolt.

[Guest Ishu161]

I, like many others, was left extremely upset after following Avi's journey through the columns. I agree that the Aiel themselves were the cause of the disaster that hit them. That will also be consistent with their prophecy, as mentioned.

I've only read about 6-7 pages and don't know if anyone's already pointed it out or not...or maybe its so obvious that there's no need to, but maybe all this that happen to the Aiel is part of the second breaking that Rand is supposed to cause?

What Avi saw was the Seanchan essentially conquering the entire westlands. Their empire is extended so far as the waste. So, will it be that the second breaking, a process which slowly consumed all the nations in the westlands, will see the existing nations destroyed and the descendants of Artur Hawkwing once again ruling the westlands...which slowly develops into a stable empire?