Rand & Egwene (Full Spoilers)

[WhiteJoker]

Whatever, man. A 50 lb bow (25% heavier than that used by women in modern competition) is one quarter the weight of an english longbow, less than half the weight of a military bow in our real history. It' the difference between a jog in the park and a marathon.

 

*squat*

 

I'll stop now, but only because I recognize that this conversation is of limited interest to anyone not interested in bows.

I don't think Bridgette is ever said to use a longbow though. All of the instances where we've seen her to use a bow indicate she's using a shortbow, which would be using the rough same data as a competition bow (after one factors in the difference of modern materials and construction anyways). Bridgette's talent for archery has always indicated it to be more towards accuracy and less towards distance and strength. As noted in Samara, she aims for vital points like eyes however she fires in relative close range for an archer. Also, from all instances we've seen, Bridgette's an adventurer and not a soldier; her archery talents are more towards fighting off a small cluster of bandits from a relative mid/short-range distance while Gaidal Cain fights them in close range melee. We haven't seen any instances of her using or related to a longbow that can launch arrows several hundred yards.

 

I do agree that she would probably be more muscular then they describe her, however we're also talking about a world where Rand can master swordplay in under two years with a farmboy's physique (which isn't anything to sneeze at but isn't built the same way as a soldier). I'm inclined to chalk up Bridgette's archery ability towards the fact that she doesn't go for distance archery but rather has a knack for accuracy in mid to short ranges. In addition, the Bridgette we see now could very well be an idealized form pulled from Tel'aran'rhiod who may not necessarily conform to normal physical rules. Add to this, she's got a warder bond which improves physical capability though supernatural means and has been rather ambiguously defined, nevermind that we don't know the full extent of the difference between a female warder and a male one if any others do exist.

 

This of course discounts Bridgette from when she was summoned by the Horn of Valere since that's just plain magic.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

actually throwing knives has tips that are heavier so they unbalance (if you will) the blade. a result is that no mater how you grow it, the tip always goes in first.

 

Only if you're at the correct distance for a given knife. They all rotate when you throw them. There is one degree of arc where the point is in position to do real damage and 359 degrees of arc when it is not. Getting that 1 degree to coincide with the body of an enemy requires the knife be thrown from a given set of distances, not any arbitrary distance.

[Zentari]

You know what ? Off topic as it was , this thread has taught me many things I did not even consider previously....

 

On topic now, we can all at least agree that the whole meeting is a timebomb waiting to explode, right ?

[f3llyn]

Making off topic post to point out how ridiculously off topic this thread has gotten.

 

On topic: It might be a time bomb, but then again Rand's taverinism will probably play a large part in him getting what he wants. Throw in Perrin and maybe Mat to the mix..

[Durinax]

I have the feeling that rand is going to trash egwenes leadership whihc will be awesome

[ajfurst]

I have the feeling that rand is going to trash egwenes leadership whihc will be awesome

Wishful thinking. I'm guessing news will arrive - from either Caemlyn or the White Tower that makes the argument moot. Much as many of us would like to see Egwene publicly beaten (in an argument sense!) in front of the Aes Sedai by Rand, 13 books of WOT should be enough to show Egwene gets more breaks then Rand, Mat and Perrin put together. She'll come around without it appearing like she ever opposed it.

[anotherfingolfin]

I have the feeling that rand is going to trash egwenes leadership whihc will be awesome

Wishful thinking. I'm guessing news will arrive - from either Caemlyn or the White Tower that makes the argument moot. Much as many of us would like to see Egwene publicly beaten (in an argument sense!) in front of the Aes Sedai by Rand, 13 books of WOT should be enough to show Egwene gets more breaks then Rand, Mat and Perrin put together. She'll come around without it appearing like she ever opposed it.

 

Sad truth. :/

 

As much of a time-bomb this whole situation seems to be, Tuon's plan to attack the WT at this 11th hour seems even worse. I think both these threads will have some sort of intertwined resolution.

 

OT- Also, seriously, randsc knows what he is talking about. (Except that he confuses World with Europe).

[NetSlider]

actually throwing knives has tips that are heavier so they unbalance (if you will) the blade. a result is that no mater how you grow it, the tip always goes in first.

 

Only if you're at the correct distance for a given knife. They all rotate when you throw them. There is one degree of arc where the point is in position to do real damage and 359 degrees of arc when it is not. Getting that 1 degree to coincide with the body of an enemy requires the knife be thrown from a given set of distances, not any arbitrary distance.

 

My point was that they don't spin - they make one revolution (or half I should say) and than fly point first. Anyways, I can't talk about throwing knives and bows anymore, because I will get a bow and shoot myself in the nut sack (if I'm going to be in this much pain I will cause it myself!).

 

Going back to topic. I think Egghead will get what's coming for her but her "face" will be saved by the news from WT and/or Camlyn. Kind of like, just as Rand will be done going at it the news will come and Rand will be like, "In the time of great strive the opportunity for great leaders is born. Go get them Tiger!" and Egghead will be like "Of course, I know what I'm doing. Go do your thing at SG and leave the rest for me...i mean us"

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

My point was that they don't spin - they make one revolution (or half I should say) and than fly point first. Anyways, I can't talk about throwing knives and bows anymore, because I will get a bow and shoot myself in the nut sack (if I'm going to be in this much pain I will cause it myself!).

 

 

No need to be that drastic. Just buy a physics text and brush up on the physical laws governing inertia. A body in motion will remain in motion until acted upon by an outside force. Once the knife starts rotating, it continues to rotate until it hits something. There's nothing but air resistance to retard the rotation. That's not enough to stop it after one-half turn.

 

Weighting one end or the other does nothing but shift the center of gravity ( the point about which the knife rotates ). The knife begins spinning as it leaves a thrower's hand and continues spinning until it hits something. If it's going to do real damage the point has to be forward when it hits. Whether the point is forward depends upon spin rate and the distance from the release point to the target. Spin rate and distance traveled depends on the force of the throw.

 

If you throw a knife with a force of 100 feet per second, and a spin rate of 5 revolutions per second, you need to be a minimum of 10 feet from the target to stick the knife, assuming you release with the grip forward, the knife making one-half revolution. The knife could also stick at 30 feet, but not at 9 or 11 or 15 or ...

 

That's why the ninja throwing weapon is a multi-point shuriken, not a knife. Encounters seldom happen at the correct distance for a thrown knife to be more than a distraction.

[randsc]

Instead of him buying that physics book, you should buy a blade-weighted throwing knife and see how it works.

 

I have throw that sort of knife a few times, though it isn't as fun as throwing a real knife and so I never bought one. It is held by the hilt and thrown like a baseball, with the only rotation occuring while it is still in the hand. It flies point-first from the moment it leaves the fingers.

 

It's really more like a weighted dart than like a knife. Remember that lawn game, Jarts?

[NetSlider]

My point was that they don't spin - they make one revolution (or half I should say) and than fly point first. Anyways, I can't talk about throwing knives and bows anymore, because I will get a bow and shoot myself in the nut sack (if I'm going to be in this much pain I will cause it myself!).

 

 

No need to be that drastic. Just buy a physics text and brush up on the physical laws governing inertia. A body in motion will remain in motion until acted upon by an outside force. Once the knife starts rotating, it continues to rotate until it hits something. There's nothing but air resistance to retard the rotation. That's not enough to stop it after one-half turn.

 

Weighting one end or the other does nothing but shift the center of gravity ( the point about which the knife rotates ). The knife begins spinning as it leaves a thrower's hand and continues spinning until it hits something. If it's going to do real damage the point has to be forward when it hits. Whether the point is forward depends upon spin rate and the distance from the release point to the target. Spin rate and distance traveled depends on the force of the throw.

 

If you throw a knife with a force of 100 feet per second, and a spin rate of 5 revolutions per second, you need to be a minimum of 10 feet from the target to stick the knife, assuming you release with the grip forward, the knife making one-half revolution. The knife could also stick at 30 feet, but not at 9 or 11 or 15 or ...

 

That's why the ninja throwing weapon is a multi-point shuriken, not a knife. Encounters seldom happen at the correct distance for a thrown knife to be more than a distraction.

 

 

Drastic is my middle name

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Instead of him buying that physics book, you should buy a blade-weighted throwing knife and see how it works.

 

I have throw that sort of knife a few times, though it isn't as fun as throwing a real knife and so I never bought one. It is held by the hilt and thrown like a baseball, with the only rotation occuring while it is still in the hand. It flies point-first from the moment it leaves the fingers.

 

Impossible. Even bullets, fired from a barrel without rifling, tumble, and they're not being released from a rotating arm. So long as the propelling mechanism rotates, the object propelled rotates. No matter what some salesman is trying to tell you.

[NetSlider]

Instead of him buying that physics book, you should buy a blade-weighted throwing knife and see how it works.

 

I have throw that sort of knife a few times, though it isn't as fun as throwing a real knife and so I never bought one. It is held by the hilt and thrown like a baseball, with the only rotation occuring while it is still in the hand. It flies point-first from the moment it leaves the fingers.

 

Impossible. Even bullets, fired from a barrel without rifling, tumble, and they're not being released from a rotating arm. So long as the propelling mechanism rotates, the object propelled rotates. No matter what some salesman is trying to tell you.

 

Ok, I really don't wanna argue about this, but it goes like this - these knives are really expensive, like in $100s of dollars expensive from what I saw (the one that my friend used at least and I saw some in the ammunition store and they were like $500 for a set of 6 I think). The trick is that the tip of the blade is forged with a lot heavier metal than the rest. So instead of the knife being balanced at the hilt it's a lot more heavier at the blade. So, no mater what you do, the blade always goes first.

[randsc]

Let me say this slowly:

 

I H A V E T H R O W N T H I S K N I F E.

 

If it helps, think of it as a short spear or javelin. If you throw a spear, does it tumble end-over-end?

 

The eagerness of people on this board to argue from theory against people with actual practical experience is ... interesting.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Let me say this slowly:

 

I H A V E T H R O W N T H I S K N I F E.

 

If it helps, think of it as a short spear or javelin. If you throw a spear, does it tumble end-over-end?

 

The eagerness of people on this board to argue from theory against people with actual practical experience is ... interesting.

 

You make the faulty assumption that you are the only one who has ever owned or used throwing knives. That's false.

 

Throwing a spear is not the same as throwing a knife. Two totally different weapons, thrown from two totally different grips. The only similarity is that both are thrown weapons.

 

The folks in WoT don't have special high-tech mini spears up their sleeves. Which they propel from mini-ballistas. They're got knives ( you know, normal slashy-stabby things ) with which they do impossible stuff.

[NetSlider]

Let me say this slowly:

 

I H A V E T H R O W N T H I S K N I F E.

 

If it helps, think of it as a short spear or javelin. If you throw a spear, does it tumble end-over-end?

 

The eagerness of people on this board to argue from theory against people with actual practical experience is ... interesting.

 

You make the faulty assumption that you are the only one who has ever owned or used throwing knives. That's false.

 

Throwing a spear is not the same as throwing a knife. Two totally different weapons, thrown from two totally different grips. The only similarity is that both are thrown weapons.

 

The folks in WoT don't have special high-tech mini spears up their sleeves. Which they propel from mini-ballistas. They're got knives ( you know, normal slashy-stabby things ) with which they do impossible stuff.

 

Do you remember in tHG Thom's chick says something about going to see if her throwing knives were done yet and the blacksmith better have the balance right this time (when Rand comes to visit with Loyal)? Well, it's all in the balance of the blade. If it's balanced right the blade will always fly in first. That's all to it. Kind of like assassin's creed throwing knives (if you played the game). That's it, I'm done with knives (and thank god bows are gone) for good this time.

 

 

[Jhirrad]

Let me say this slowly:

 

I H A V E T H R O W N T H I S K N I F E.

 

If it helps, think of it as a short spear or javelin. If you throw a spear, does it tumble end-over-end?

 

The eagerness of people on this board to argue from theory against people with actual practical experience is ... interesting.

 

You make the faulty assumption that you are the only one who has ever owned or used throwing knives. That's false.

 

Throwing a spear is not the same as throwing a knife. Two totally different weapons, thrown from two totally different grips. The only similarity is that both are thrown weapons.

 

The folks in WoT don't have special high-tech mini spears up their sleeves. Which they propel from mini-ballistas. They're got knives ( you know, normal slashy-stabby things ) with which they do impossible stuff.

 

Do you remember in tHG Thom's chick says something about going to see if her throwing knives were done yet and the blacksmith better have the balance right this time (when Rand comes to visit with Loyal)? Well, it's all in the balance of the blade. If it's balanced right the blade will always fly in first. That's all to it. Kind of like assassin's creed throwing knives (if you played the game). That's it, I'm done with knives (and thank god bows are gone) for good this time.

OMG can we actually take Off-Topic issues somewhere that they belong like, I don't know, General Discussion? THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT THREAD FOR THIS DISCUSSION. You have now added several pages that people have to wade through just to get the topic at hand. This has gone beyond ridiculous at this point.

[Terez]

I'm curious - does anybody have a split of WoT readers by gender?

Not just forum-ites - overall readership.

This is the closest I got:

 

Robert Jordan's blog 6 October 2005 - 'AND ONE MORE TIME'

I see there has been a question on wotmania about whether there are more male or female readers. I don’t know how it runs in the States, though attendance at my signings seems roughly equal, but I do have a fairly good idea about Britain. My British publisher commissioned a survey to identify my readership so they would know where to put advertising. The study said that my readership matched the demographic of Britain within the margin of error for the survey as to age level, income level, educational level, political party belonged to, newspaper read, magazines read, area of the country lived in…and gender. It was, in the words of the managing director, an ice cream scoop taken out of Britain.

[Exy]

Okay, so, Egwene is confronted by a guy who has been widely described as crazy -- has a habit of talking to a voice in his head, and does crazy things like destroy palaces with balefire -- and his plan now is to destroy the remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. Which, for all she knows, will free him completely.

 

The reader has good reason to think he's right (and knows the Dark One won't be completely free) but she has no way of knowing any of these things.

 

So she decides to ask the other leaders of the known world to try to reason him out of this.

 

The fact that she doesn't immediately agree with a plan that sounds straight-up insane but rather schemes to talk him out of it means she's a horrible arrogant bitch who's doing the Shadow's work? Seriously?

 

And people here are anticipating her attempting to lead the White Tower and the various national armies away from Tarmon Gai'don? In hopes of some confrontation that will lead her to be humbled in some way? Like, you don't think it's more likely that, once she has some idea of what his plans are that she'll understand? (And it appears that at this point only he and Min know what they are, and even the reader is not privy to them. We don't even know how complete his plans are.) You're hoping she'll do something completely foolish and totally outside the bounds of human behavior so you can enjoy how wrong she is?

 

You can't possibly actually think that's going to happen, can you? It doesn't even make sense. She's not going to do anything like that. It's fucking stupid.

[AutomatedTeller]

I was trying to figure out what the purpose the White Ajah served in the novel. I mean, they don't DO anything, right?

 

I'm wondering if they are the ones that are going to say "oh my - Rand is right - we HAVE to break the seals" and thus persuade Egwene. The White is, after all, supposed to be the Ajah of philosophy.

[nleseul]

The fact that she doesn't immediately agree with a plan that sounds straight-up insane but rather schemes to talk him out of it means she's a horrible arrogant bitch who's doing the Shadow's work? Seriously?

 

Yeah, it confuses me. So many of the posts on this thread seem to be insisting that everyone should be expected to just fall in line behind Rand and do what he says without question. But then they accuse Egwene of being arrogant and needing to be taken down when she expects the same thing of people.

 

No leader's decisions should be beyond question. Not Egwene's, not Rand's. Rand does have a responsibility to persuade the assembled armies of the world that a) he really is completely sane and knows what he's doing, and b) it makes sense to break the seals. Neither Rand nor Egwene may be thinking about the meeting in those terms, but that's what Merrilor needs to be.

[Zentari]

Okay, so, Egwene is confronted by a guy who has been widely described as crazy -- has a habit of talking to a voice in his head, and does crazy things like destroy palaces with balefire -- and his plan now is to destroy the remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. Which, for all she knows, will free him completely.

 

The reader has good reason to think he's right (and knows the Dark One won't be completely free) but she has no way of knowing any of these things.

 

So she decides to ask the other leaders of the known world to try to reason him out of this.

 

The fact that she doesn't immediately agree with a plan that sounds straight-up insane but rather schemes to talk him out of it means she's a horrible arrogant bitch who's doing the Shadow's work? Seriously?

 

And people here are anticipating her attempting to lead the White Tower and the various national armies away from Tarmon Gai'don? In hopes of some confrontation that will lead her to be humbled in some way? Like, you don't think it's more likely that, once she has some idea of what his plans are that she'll understand? (And it appears that at this point only he and Min know what they are, and even the reader is not privy to them. We don't even know how complete his plans are.) You're hoping she'll do something completely foolish and totally outside the bounds of human behavior so you can enjoy how wrong she is?

 

You can't possibly actually think that's going to happen, can you? It doesn't even make sense. She's not going to do anything like that. It's fucking stupid.

What makes her a horrible arrogant bitch is her general behavior and POVs up until now.The whole incident is just icing on the cake.Instead of trying to understand why he said that (if he's mad enough to blow up the world, why would he walk up to her and announce it?) she's having a knee jerk reaction to the whole thing.Also note that she offers no alternative.

[f3llyn]

Okay, so, Egwene is confronted by a guy who has been widely described as crazy -- has a habit of talking to a voice in his head, and does crazy things like destroy palaces with balefire -- and his plan now is to destroy the remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. Which, for all she knows, will free him completely.

 

The reader has good reason to think he's right (and knows the Dark One won't be completely free) but she has no way of knowing any of these things.

 

So she decides to ask the other leaders of the known world to try to reason him out of this.

 

The fact that she doesn't immediately agree with a plan that sounds straight-up insane but rather schemes to talk him out of it means she's a horrible arrogant bitch who's doing the Shadow's work? Seriously?

 

And people here are anticipating her attempting to lead the White Tower and the various national armies away from Tarmon Gai'don? In hopes of some confrontation that will lead her to be humbled in some way? Like, you don't think it's more likely that, once she has some idea of what his plans are that she'll understand? (And it appears that at this point only he and Min know what they are, and even the reader is not privy to them. We don't even know how complete his plans are.) You're hoping she'll do something completely foolish and totally outside the bounds of human behavior so you can enjoy how wrong she is?

 

You can't possibly actually think that's going to happen, can you? It doesn't even make sense. She's not going to do anything like that. It's fucking stupid.

The problem with her in this book is that she just assumes Rand is insane and therefor instantly wrong. And that's as far as her thought process carries her before she decides that he has to be confronted. She doesn't spend any time trying to figure out an alternative plan to propose to him. She doesn't do anything, she just thinks he's wrong (like she has since the first book) and that she is right.

 

Granted she doesn't know he's come to terms with himself and is in fact perfectly sane. If you count having some dudes memories in your head that died 3000 years ago as sane.. and it's not irrational for her to fear Rand's plan. But she doesn't do anything to prove herself the great leader she thinks she is and come up with something as an alternative. Also granted that maybe we didn't "see" her ordering her Aes Sedai to research the bore and the last battle for alternate plans but she never thinks about that if she did.

 

And then there is how she treats people not including Rand...

[Cyf]

The issue, as f3llyn said, is -not- that she disagrees with Rand. Not at all. I'd expert her to with as little information as she was given.

 

The issue is that we see into her head, and she doesn't really have any logical process other than 'HE CAN'T DO THAT THAT IS INSANE' and doesn't do a thing to try get another plan. Her entire focus is just on confronting him. There's no secondary thoughts about actually doing research or -anything-. When you add on how she has a thought at the Fields near the end of the book about how she really hoped he listened to her or she would have to act, and so on, and it's obvious she seriously expects to fight the Dragon if he doesn't agree with her.

 

Fighting the Dragon on the eve of the Last Battle? That's kinda nuts.

 

Also, the logic of 'the seals are broken = DO is free and we're screwed' is not true. :) And this is something they should know, as the Tower has records. The DO was kinda free, till sealed by LTT. The world didn't instantly end. The issue is one of starvation, which also segues into Rand's breaking the seals thing.

 

Egwene is acting on emotion and with arrogance, not foresight and planning. This is why we hate her. :)

[dwn]

Rand just dropped the equivalent of: "Hi, Egwene. In a month I'm going to set fire to the atmosphere. It may sound drastic, but I need to do it so I can fix the pollution problem." We may understand the necessity (because, hey, Herid Fel said so!), but Rand never tried to explain or justify the plan.

 

If anything, I'd say her reaction was restrained.

 

-- dwn