Discuss The Full Book

[Goramier]

Clarity time...Olver:

 

I would love to clarify this character. First off, some people have quoted some BS thoughts on him that I don't recall at this time...but something about being sad for him or something.

 

1. The first time I believe we hear of him is just after the scene where Mat goes into the tent to see the bloody mess. We are left wondering if Olver is among the dead. He was supposed to be in there, at least from Mats perspective and the first thing we hear when Mat describes the scene is, "Olver!" I think that was meant to keep us biting our nails as to whether the boy had been killed and left open for about a half a page to make us think he had in fact, been.

 

2. We then find out he wasn't and Olver is essentially left the rest of the book, up until the end, being carried around or going from guardian to gaurdian. There is a scene with him and Talmanes where he opens the letter at the end and of course with Setelle who is charged with him now.

 

3. Lastly and the only real big look we get into Olver is at the end where he opens Mats letter while he is with Talmanes. We get his POV. What did we learn? First of all he isn't an innocent little boy. He is on his way to becoming a man now. Second, we learn that he is a sharp one. He has not been fooled by Mat at all and knows exactly what is going on around there. He knows where Mat is going and accepts it. We also know he cares about Mat and see's himself as caring for Mat rather than the other way around. Then we see his darkside. We see that he is motivated by revenge and is plotting it. He essentially has two goals. The first is to become a good fighter. The second is to figure out the snakes and foxes game. He is planning on going to them to find out who (of the Shaido) killed his father then using his fighter skills to go exact revenge. It seemed a darker portrait of him then I was expecting. He isn't innocent and is clearly far from dumb. He is smart and is motivated by revenge.

 

As fas as I know that is all we got from him.

[Mehn_Deke]

Can we take the Saldean DF response to Rand's destruction of the Trollocs there as proof that Bashere is NOT a DF? Those two killed/blinded themselves rather than watch, but Iltrude (sp?) and Bashere watched in amazement.

[toss the dice]

Also about the Lanfear thing. Anyone else think it weird that Rand would find her in his dreams when it seems as though shes being tortured by the Dark One...

 

I think he heard her torture through his link with Moridin and him going through the door was him following that link until he found her.

 

We know Moridin is Nae'blis. I dont think even the Nae'blis would be allowed all the way into the pit of doom to watch Lanfear be tortured. And Rand can now control his dreams (even the normal ones) so I dont think he is going to accidentally slip into Moridins mind now. I think their is something else that we dont know about yet that explains how Lanfear appeared in Rands dreams

[KefkaPalazzo]

And maybe Narishma would lead the world after Rand, effectively becoming the 'One who follows after'.

Any theories on Rand's other two questions to the AelFinn?

And is there no mention of Fain in ToM except the Prologue?

Rand's questions (and his responses to the answers):

Q1. Something like "How can I fight the last battle and live"

A1. "To live, you must die" (mentioned countless times)

He beats himself up over this for 9 books now.

 

 

Q2. Something like "what now?"

A2. "The north and the east must be as one. The south and the west must be as one" (mentioned in TGS, iirc)

He took this to mean "build an empire," which he did. He went for Cairhien and tried very hard to exert complete control. He entered Andor (center of the map) just to kill Rahvin, as well as Sammael in Illian. In TGS, he began taking it literally, cutting the map in two, giving the Seanchan the Southwest, and keeping the Northeast for himself.

 

Q3. Something like "How can I cleanse Saidin?"

A3. Not directly stated in the books, but they gave a description of the cleansing, which Rand did. (sometime before LOC, since he discussed the theory with Herid Fel)

Straightforward. He got instructions on how to do it, and did it.

[Phariah]

i love Rand the Light incarnate. finally Rand is full control.when Ny looked into his mind and seen how farm the taint was spead and how it was coated with a white light. very twisted. the Narg shoutout was sweet. "Minds" woflheaded trollocs some that could even speak..

 

the Red Veiled Aeil. could they be male Aiel channelers that made it into the blight and were captured and forcibly turned? or were they brought over from a mirror world? corrupt aiel from a differant world.

 

than when Shaidar Haran tells Greandal when she says the Rand thinks her dead and she could be of use against him. he says that task has been given to another. after seeing that seen in epilogue of Rand seeing Mieran in his dream. think its Cyndane? will this be the second time Perrin has to save rand from chanellers?

 

obviously the shadow is using one or more of the mirror worlds as staging grounds. could it be possible that Taim takes men there in an alternate world that has a differant time flow to train some chossen Asha'man since they seem to learn too quickly? also seems like compulsion and/ or forcibly turning channelers to the shadow is going on at the BT. seeing as how both male and females are taking on new attitudes / changing opinions.

 

also Taim seems to be comfortable. think Logain is imprisonned? or he is staying hidden in Egwene's AS camp planning something?

 

also where the heck was Alivia?!?!

[Galium]

Sorry if this has been posted before, did not want to read through 32 pages.

 

 

Glossary:

 

Graendal; One of the Forsaken. Once known as Kamarile Meradim Nindara noted ascetic, she was the second of the Forsaken to decide to serve the Dark One. A ruthless killer, she was responsible for the deaths or Aran'gar, ASMODEAN and for the destruction of Mesaana. Her present circumstances are uncertain...

 

 

 

FInally!!!! ASMO IS DEAD!!!!!! MOVE ON!!!!!!!

 

LoL

 

Doesn't mean she killed him. She could have told Luc to. We still don't know who killed Asmodean.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nah, I'm just kidding. Haha.

[Elend]

Olver killed Asmodean, but only because Olver is Graendal.

[RelentlessAttack]

Anyone else notice that Moridin seems to be growing in power and darkness correspondingly with Rand's growth in power and lightness?

[Phariah]

this is a crazy thought. but the more i think about it the more it seems plausible. Moridan is the DO. remember when Demodrand goes to SG and comments on how much the DO's know of events transpiring meanwhile ignorant of others? suppose Rand defeats the DO and seals Moridan in the bore.

 

remember he tells Rand that he remembers fighting him in other times, not just the age of legends. so he has to remember his past lives. what if the dark one wasn't a senient force the first time it was opened. it was just another power but it corrupted. and Moridan was sealed away behind the bore and became the conciousness of the power.

 

i mean if you look at it it has a similar mentality as Moridan. entropy. and doesn't call his enemy the Light but the Dragon.

[Link2037]

First Verin and Mat.... FFS Verin, why didnt you tell mat to act as he feels with the information, NOT command him to act..... Ending the book like that really irked me.

 

The Avendiha (spelling.. i know, im at a hostel in Jiuzhaigou, can barely type on this keyboard)

 

Very curious about Taim, he has a dream spike, and he is training people VERY fast, maybe an inverted stasis box (or a portal stone) where they can have years to train, but only take 1 day in 'real' world. We know he is either playing both sides or fully evil, i guess we will see, where is Logain???

 

Wish we'd gotten the reunification scene w/ her and rand.

You typed all of that rather than just moving the i in Aviendha >_>,

I'm pretty sure Taim is thoroughly evil,

and yeah. I was hoping that Mat's bit would happen near the start, leaving plenty of time for her to reunite with Rand.

[Razor]

Sorry if already discussed as I onlr read 1/3 of the posts in this thread.

 

Only mention of big unnoticed thing was about the wolf brother that turned wolf??? Really??

 

I think it is more likely abouyt the red veiled aiel or how Mat escaped from the tower using his asandari

[KefkaPalazzo]

Sorry if already discussed as I onlr read 1/3 of the posts in this thread.

 

Only mention of big unnoticed thing was about the wolf brother that turned wolf??? Really??

 

I think it is more likely abouyt the red veiled aiel or how Mat escaped from the tower using his asandari

No, Noam was the SUT, the Small Unnoticed Thing, that was from TDR.

 

Personally, I think the BUT was the Spear.

[Second Chance]

Only mention of big unnoticed thing was about the wolf brother that turned wolf??? Really??

 

I think it is more likely abouyt the red veiled aiel or how Mat escaped from the tower using his asandari

Concensus seems to be that the Ashaderai is the BUT.

 

Reason we should have noticed...

1. Fill the wholes in my memory - gets other memories.

2. Be free of Aes Sedai - gets the medallion.

3. I want a way out of here - he gets the Ashanderai as a way out of the tower (I think everyone like me assumed that being dumped outside the tower hanging by his neck was his way out).

[hurin]

Anyone have any idea who the strange Aiel-like people were in the Epilogue at the end of the book? Almost reminded me of the Aelfinn/Eilfinn. What the heck were they?

[Gythwyn]

Picked it up on lunch yesterday.

 

Started it at 6pm, just finished at 3am. I haven't pulled one of those for a while!

 

 

All I can say (in a very camp, fanboy way) is SQUUUUUUUUUUUEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

 

Loved it :D

 

GOin sleep now. Work starts at 7 :D

[sdelu]

Also about the Lanfear thing. Anyone else think it weird that Rand would find her in his dreams when it seems as though shes being tortured by the Dark One...

 

I think he heard her torture through his link with Moridin and him going through the door was him following that link until he found her.

 

We know Moridin is Nae'blis. I dont think even the Nae'blis would be allowed all the way into the pit of doom to watch Lanfear be tortured. And Rand can now control his dreams (even the normal ones) so I dont think he is going to accidentally slip into Moridins mind now. I think their is something else that we dont know about yet that explains how Lanfear appeared in Rands dreams

 

Something, certainly. I thought it was something Lanfear or Demandred had cooked up. Considering...

 

"I have a better plan, more bold. You will be impressed. Al'Thor thinks I am dead, and so I can--"

 

"No." Such a quiet voice, but so horrible. Graendal found she could not speak. Something had taken her voice. "No," Shaidar Haran continued. "This opportunity has been given to another."

 

I had assumed that Shaidar Haran was speaking about getting at Rand, not at Perrin, considering Graendal's argument. Could be wrong... but coming one right after the other? Gave me the impression that someone just broke into Rand's dreams. Lanfear doesn't make sense to me, simply because the tactic doesn't seem like her (would she really think that showing herself being tortured would do something, after Rand had spurned her so many times?). Then again, she is certainly strong enough in the world of dreams.

 

Either way, I got the impression that perhaps Demandred has finally been given a crack at Rand.

 

I do see the connection to Moridin, though. With all the wards (and considering his AoL knowledge) Rand's dreams should be pretty secure, but that link with Moridin seems an awful easy exploit just waiting to happen.

 

 

 

Edit -- has anyone been discussing the prophecy at the end of the book? There's so much to look through. Can't request new threads yet so I have to wade through things, I guess.

[shizuoka]

I didn't read all 32 pages of this thread but I read a ton and I have to say...no offense but I cannot believe how innaccurate MOST of the info is, lol. So many "spoilers" are either way off the mark or not exactly accurate. I suspect many giving out these spoilers haven't actually read the book yet. Not sure if it gets more accurate after around page 25 but it didn't appear to be doing so.

 

If you are reading these spoiler boards and have not yet read the book I think you will find MOST of the info here isn't accurate or at least only partly accurate.

 

Also when a bunch of fans start pouring ideas togather remember that they come up with THEIR own conculsions and they drawn THEIR own facts and they may not be accurate even if the forum posts all speak as if they are proven fact.

 

It is amazing how wildly off MOST of it is, lol. Some is accurate, don't get me wrong but some posts from people giving out these "spoilers" have clearly skimmed the book as fast as they could without actually understanding anything they read and then commented on.

 

 

Well the first 20 pages is indeed a lot of discussion not entirely factual as people are discussing as they read.

 

But for me, after page ~24-26, there's a lot of good discussion happening on events in the books. ie - Who is Nakomi? The prophecies of the dark? Lanfear's visit... etc. Those are all facts that DO happen in the book. I think what you're misinterpreting as "bad spoilers" is the speculation on things not yet revealed. I mean, yes it's fun to discuss a book and the facts...but most of this thread has been speculating on future events based on this book.

 

On a separate note and totally unrelated to the person I quoted, I still would never recommend someone read this thread before they read the book. That is just ridiculous to me and kills the enjoyment for me. Right off the bat, you get spoiled that Graendal killed Asmo, Jain = Noah, Rand's reunion with Tam, visit to white tower, etc... Yes, you might have guessed those things already but having them confirmed as you read it is so much more fun than reading it on a forum by someone saying, "Yea woohooo, i was rite, grandal owned asmo!"

[Dakota]

... the Narg shoutout was sweet ...

 

wait, what?

[AcuWill]

I'm pretty sure the "wrongness" in a lot of the channelers in the Black Tower is that they have been converted by a circle of 13 Mydraal.

 

 

I found the Aviendha future scenes, Ovler's POV, the epilogue with Rand and the lack of Seanchan portions of the book to be confusing. I simply cannot see how These storylines (except for Olver's, it may not be that important) can be wrapped up in one book in addition to the rest of the major storyline.

 

 

Oh, Egwene has learned nothing with regard to not being a pompous Aes Sedai.

[Goramier]

I'm pretty sure the "wrongness" in a lot of the channelers in the Black Tower is that they have been converted by a circle of 13 Mydraal.

 

I hadn't thought of that...that is brilliant. I would bet on that being it too.

[mininboots]

So there's a fair bit of discussion up-thread about whether Rand can *really* see DFs now or whether Verin's letter tipped him off to Weiramon and Anaiyella. Here's my take: Both.

 

Way back when, we had a Jaichim Carridin PoV from a giant DF meeting at Shayol Ghul. He noted with scorn that some fool had worn boots clearly identifying himself as a High Lord of Tear - this is how we've known all along that one of the High Lords was DF, and iirc most of us bet on Weiramon (especially after Hearne, Simaan, etc. got offed one by one). It seems likely to me that Verin was at that meeting as well, as a high-ranking BA (Carridin ID'd at least 3 AS there, I think, though I don't have the book in front of me to check his descriptions) and if so, she would have known for a fact that there was a DF among the High Lords, but not necessarily known who. (In fact, I think she mentioned to Egwene that a few high-ranking DFs were ID'd in her book, too, not just BA?)

 

So in her letter, in addition to cluing Rand in about Alsalam (and who knows what other tidbits), she gives him a heads up about the High Lords. Rand comes back to Tear, has Darlin line them all up ("Darlin, I need the High Lords and Ladies lined up to receive me" pg. 195) and then uses his newfound "sight" ("'Tell them,' Rand continued, voice soft but demanding, 'that I am no longer blind.'" pg 198) to out Weiramon and Anaiyella.

 

It seems clear from the DF reaction in Maradon that Rand's new ability to spot (and discomfit) DFs is no act, but that doesn't mean Verin had no role to play here.

[aginor37]

I think the circumstances of Verin's letter were necessary. When she met with Mat he wasn't in "the hour of her death" so she had to see to it that Mat would be too afraid to get caught up in Aes Sedai schemes to open it before she was sure she would either be able to return and claim it, or be dead. If she hadn't intentionally made him so wary that she knew he wouldn't open it too soon, she wouldn't have been able to give it to him since that would have been betraying the dark one... but she counted on his curiosity eventually getting the best of him if she died, which ended up not being the right bet to make.

[Sharaman]

Fain can see DFs as far back as LoC - their foreheads look sooty.

It's possible that Rand has developed a similar ability.

A tip off from Verin might be a factor as well, in Weiramon's case.

[Cenire Sedai]

Not sure whether this is te right place to post this but hey ho.

 

I've seen a few people commenting about the red veiled people in the epilogue. I think we all need to look at what Barriga actually thinks as one kills him "These weren't Aiel. They were something else." that combined with the dark eyes part leads me towards thinking they are not Aiel, especially not male channelers as

 

1. They have spears and kill with a knife.

2. Heeth Tower is smoking but still standing, and from the prologue we know that it would have been easier to knock the thing down rather than assault it.

 

Another point about these people is that they are wearing red,(and we all know how important colour is in the WoT series). If we refer back to chapter one and the burning of ships at Takisrom, the attacking vessels have red painted sails. I think this ties the two invading / attacking forces together (hence why they are mentioned at the beginning and end of the book). And also, to me, this is screaming Demandred. We know he has martialed his armies from the last meeting of the Forsaken, whether they are Mirror World or Sharan I'm not sure.

 

After the reveltions about the strenght of the DO's forces and Fain's zombie trollocs I am sooo excited about aMoL!

[alexander234]

Has anyone kept track of who received letters from Verin?