Chapter Two, "Questions of Leadership"

[DemandredFO]

I liked the chapter, as to Maidens riding, everything's changing, maybe they figured it would be more efficient. Unless of course someone asked and Brandon said it was a mistake. As for Galad, I would have like to see Elayne's accepted test, Mat v. Couladin and some other stuff, but the world didn't end because I didn't.

You know maybe Harriet should have asked Martin to finish WoT. Maybe people would've been happier never having the final books than insulting Brandon for a job WELL done.

[scraps18]

Liked it. As a set-up chapter for Perrin. Got us caught up, now the wheels are spinning a little bit FORWARD for Perrin.

 

Galad... aaahhh whatever. Didn't feel like the same guy from a few books ago. But oh well oh well oh well, as Jack White would say.

 

Nothing here in any of the pre-release content to make me happy, sad or otherwise. Just indifferent so far.

[dwn]

OK people I gotta say I liked Perrin in this chapter, that is to say he is what I think a lot of us were expecting. Perrin for a while now has been described as slow and dull, both in the way he acts in his chapters and the way his plot line is going. But I am beginning to believe the that was all intentional, as I think a lot of people do. Its too obvious that for books now Perrin has been trying to figure out some puzzle. The Analogy with the 'most complicated blacksmiths puzzle' and blacksmiths puzzles have been around for too long.

 

Something is wrong in his camp. (which is what I wanted to ask everyone, as I have no idea what) It's almost like he is trying to pretend he has no idea about it until he has it figured out. This is one of the most interesting groups of people out there, so diverse. Aes Sedai and Asha'man working together (relative to elsewhere), a queen, the first, a former queen, Aeil, wise ones, two rivers soldiers, Aei Sedai meeting with enemies, his wife (perhaps the most important given her bloodlines) etc etc Were they all really necessary for what he had to accomplish? Even given Rand and the Pattern? Its a mess that barely works. SOMETHING is going on and perrin has been trying to figure it out for books now and eventually the answer is going to up and slap him in the face so hard.

 

I believe the problem that both RJ and Sanderson have had is trying to keep what perrin is 'doing' interesting enough so that what is happening in the background can develop to the point that it is both a big reveal and necessary to perrins development plot wise. That is why the chapters seem slow and boring, they have been foreshadowing but have been trying to not give it away, a bit like "hey guys there is a puzzle here, see of you can try and figure out what it is in the first place before you try and put the million little pieces together."

 

Perrin's forces, plus the Seanchan and Whitecloaks, are a microcosm of the various groups that must eventually band together to fight the Shadow. Rand hasn't been much of a unifying figure, and Mat hasn't really tried on a large scale; perhaps that's ultimately what Perrin's role will be.

 

-- dwn

[Kaznen]

I had wondered why the AM didn't recruit amongst the refuges. I figured that with the 1-2% population ratio of channlers, and about half (50000) of the refuges are men they could have found between 500-1000 new Soldiers for the BT and what Faile and Perrin were talking about in ToM chp2 confirms, to me at least, the two AM would have found willing applicants.

 

Well, as I said earlier I wondered why they didn't but them being sick from the Bubble of Evil explains that. I knew they would need time to recover to make a gateway large enough for 100k+ people (look at what happened to Rand when he held open a door for a few thousand Aiel in LoC) even if they tied them open. But the little flame to test resonance didn't seem like a big weave.

 

BTW: When I first starting reading the thread, before I listened to the chapter, people were making out that Galad and the Whitecloaks had already joined Perrin's group, like Perrin would say, "I think we should camp here, what do you think Galad?" And I felt robbed that we didn't get to see how Galad escaped.

 

The way the chapter is set up works real well, and I don't feel robbed we didn't see the revolt.

[Kaznen]

I'm not sure I can agree that Perrin should have been cut from TGS, though I can sympathize with those who feel that way. By the time Gathering Storm was released it had been four years from the previous release. Can you imagine the uproar that would have ensued if we had been forced to wait another year for anything having to do with Perrin or Mat?

 

Though they weren't necessary in moving the book itself forward, their inclusion was important to remind readers(mainly casual readers, I can't think any of us here would forget them) that they are still around and what they are up to.

 

I remember the uproar of having to wait 6 years to find out what happened to Mat at the end of CoS. I wasn't reading the books when tFoH was released and everyone had to wait however long before LoC came out.

 

I think BS put those snippets in so we wouldn't be mad they weren't in tGS. Remember, he had to wait on the books once, too.

[Mulk]

This is off topic a bit, but when I first saw/heard the title, I immediately thought of Dilbert and "Don't Step in the Leadership." Just had to share. :D

 

I like where Galad is and is going. It think/hope Perrin is finally about to turn the corner. I've viewed his resistance as being a result of the fact that he has to work his way through everything before he makes a conclusion: Irritating, but understandable given who he is.

[dwn]

I remember the uproar of having to wait 6 years to find out what happened to Mat at the end of CoS. I wasn't reading the books when tFoH was released and everyone had to wait however long before LoC came out.

 

Through LoC, the books were released roughly one year apart. ACoS took about a year and a half. The uproar was due to the (relatively) long wait for TPoD--two and a half years--combined with Mat's absence from that book.

 

-- dwn

[Agitel]

I know everyone's complaining about Perrin right now, but the chapters in tGS were pretty much token chapters so we didn't forget completely about him. Perrin's epiphany arc will be in this book, and so Perrin needs to start at zero before he can get to hero so we have a full story arc in one novel, which is why Perrin has "taken a step back" in this book.

[Bastor]

The thought of Galad being Ta'veren actually crossed my mind as I was listening to his PoV. Being active though at the same time as Ta'veren of magnitude of Rand, Perin and Mat he could be more or less "hidden" or remain unnoticed due to his smaller effect on the pattern or he could just be a hero reborn again or a new hero. ^^

 

Sounds reasonable and thanks for mentioning it.

[Sentinel78]

The thought of Galad being Ta'veren actually crossed my mind as I was listening to his PoV. Being active though at the same time as Ta'veren of magnitude of Rand, Perin and Mat he could be more or less "hidden" or remain unnoticed due to his smaller effect on the pattern or he could just be a hero reborn again or a new hero. ^^

 

Sounds reasonable and thanks for mentioning it.

 

You'd think Siuan might have remarked on Galad being ta'veren, since she has the ability to see ta'veren and has tried to control all of the other ta'veren that she's been made aware of. She would have known Galad from Tar Valon. That being said, how the heck could Siuan even know she ever had the ability to see ta'veren before Rand/Mat/Perrin? She would have had to run into another ta'veren at some point to confirm the Talent.

 

From tGH:

 

The Amyrlin touched the fractured seal, and her voice grew tight, as if she were forcing herself to speak. "I saw the boy, you know, in the courtyard during the Welcome. It is one of my Talents, seeing ta'veren. A rare Talent these days, even more rare than ta'veren, and certainly not of much use.

[Mulk]

a thought: ta'veren aren't always so for their entire lives are they?

 

I'm not arguing for or against his status as one. Just I'm not sure if ta'veren are always so for their whole lives. If not, then the possibility exists (unlikely in my personal train of thought, but it is there) that he has become so for the purpose of straightening out the Children and making them a force for order and good once more.

[RelentlessAttack]

I agree with luckers, really the big problem with this was that Perrin shouldn't have been in TGS. those throw in chapters make this feel like a stagnation/regression. Also, yeah, it's lame to just tell us that there was a bubble of evil. We could have seen that in TGS instead of that silly wagon scene

[aunt_pol]

For all their differences, Perrin and Galad are really quite similar. Perrin thinks about things for an obscene amount of time, then gets on with it. Perhaps Galad will be the one to get through to him that the Right Thing needs ****ing doing BEFORE Tarmon Gaidon, plzkthx.

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, I think with all the focus on the the ta'veren we've already got, I don't think they're going to be tossing anymore into the story at this late date. Galad's a Hero, sure, so his life was woven out into the Pattern for more of an over-arching purpose than most people's lives are, but it would be kind of silly to have more ta'veren show up at this point in the series.

[Cyf]

Er. Where is it said Galad's a Hero? :) I think people are getting a little too into Galad. He's a secondary character. Certainly an interesting one -- better than many. But ta'veren? Hero of the Horn? Really? I don't see any proof of this whatsoever. Have I missed something in the books?

[theblacksmith]

Shot in the dark, but Perrin's dialogue/thoughts seemed to be aimed directly at the people who post on this site...there was alot of "why" involved in the majority of the chapter. I agree with Luckers that maybe he should have been left entirely out of TGS as he seemed to back up from where he was in the prologue or maybe it is just something that is a repurcussion of the split. Overall, we got some answers we have all been speculating on:

 

Timeline

"bubble of light"

We now know Perrin rescuing Galad from WC questioners is out

 

And we got just enough of a tease to debate what was found by the maidens (2) weeks should fly by...

 

I am not a BS basher and am thankful that he is willing to complete this tale for us, yet I have no desire for the comments about RJ's style (drawn out etc.) it was that style which drew the majority of us to this story and this site, and the author you are trying to champion is a fan of that style also. He determined early on that he would not try to project RJ's voice/prose and so we are not taking swipes at him. it is simply that there ALOT of people that have shared their point of views here for a LONG time and we would not change anything about this story, yet we are glad to have the ending. Please understand people are not being so much critical of BS as they are pointing out a difference.

[Tenesmus]

***LIGHTBULB*** Random thoughts...

 

Didn't Morgase cede a parcel of land to the Whitecloaks during her captivity? What will Elayne think about having both The Black Tower and The Fortress of Light in Andor? At least Galad will have someplace to take the Children now.

 

Does Morgase have enough channeling abilty to bond Tallanvor?

 

Will Tam get bonded and or married again?

 

Could Perrin's current "army" defeat 20,000 Trollocs?

 

What is the signifigance of Gil heading to Lugard? Isn't there some rogue ruler (Roerdran?)up there trying to set himself up as a king? Is Perrin going to become liege lord to him also?

 

Will we see a [Removed. Bit too far.]

[Crael123]

that last one was gross. about above post

[TreeJoe]

Does anyone have an estimate at the size of Perrin's army now?

 

He's got farriers and hoopers turning into experienced quarterstaffmen and swordsmen, and I assume most of them will become very competent very quickly. He HAD a good number of Aiel, Mayeners, Ghealdans, Two Rivers men, etc. already....

 

With what he's picked up + all the supposed mercenaries he's absorbing, I'm guessing he's coming over over 100k fighting men and women at this point...

[Sharaman]

Is it worth doing a separate thread on the BlackSmith's Puzzle? Is it a metaphor? Will solving turn it into a working ter'angreal remote control that takes care of Fembot Faile? Is it a teeny-weeny little axe? Or a hammer?

[algspkr]

What's up with the timeline? Chapter 1 was post-VoG and Chapter 2 was pre-VoG, or does Perrin just not realize that Tam is gone.

[TheAngryDruid]

Does anyone have an estimate at the size of Perrin's army now?

 

He's got farriers and hoopers turning into experienced quarterstaffmen and swordsmen, and I assume most of them will become very competent very quickly. He HAD a good number of Aiel, Mayeners, Ghealdans, Two Rivers men, etc. already....

 

With what he's picked up + all the supposed mercenaries he's absorbing, I'm guessing he's coming over over 100k fighting men and women at this point...

 

From the chapter, Perrin has:

4,000 Two Rivers bowman

1,000 Ghealdan(i?) soldiers

900 Winged Guard from Mayene

5,000 mercenaries/sell swords/experienced soldiers picked up in the last month

6 Wise Ones

3 Aes Sedai

2 Asha'man

Some additional Aeil/Maidens + Gaul.

100,000 refugees, some/many of whom are starting to take weapons practice and are finding they have talent and skill for it. How many, we have no idea.

 

Galad is also murking about with a force of about 17,000 Whitecloaks and Randland soldiers who were under the Seanchan/Ansunawa. 7k were Galad's WC's, about 10-11k were Asunawa's with a mix of WC's and soldiers from Randland who swore the Oaths.

 

I also keep wondering if we are going to see some more honorable Shaido, like Maeric, hanging about? We saw he was honorable and thoughtful, but likely didn't survive Sammael's fool box. But maybe others did?

[Ataxia]

Arent most of the Malden refugees younger-middle aged? wouldnt suprise me 1 bit if all of them learned to fight.

[flinn]

Well one thing we know for certain. Perrin is about to BREAKOUT. Why do we know this? Because BS is writing this series. I am glad to see how fast the Galad issue was resolved. But, I caught myself thinking "this guy has to be sick of reading the Perrin POV after all these years repeating the same thing over and over". As far as the Maidens, its possible BS made a mistake with riding, but my instincts were to think the mud was just too inconvenient. They need the speed to be able to perform their duties and Aiel are far from accustomed to running in knee deep mud. While I do think they would be better at it than the average civilian in the march, its still too slow for them to be productive.

The reasons for !portals is starting to feel like being banged over the head with it.

[Treemaster]

A few thoughts:

 

1. Overall, I thought the chapter was ok -- neither great, nor awful. It's a setup chapter for the most part, so that is not surprising. My main criticism I suppose is that it seemed to lack oomph or gravitas. But as the second chapter in a book, it shouldn't have any climaxes, so that's entirely appropriate.

 

2. Regarding Perrin, I don't have any problem with the way he's portrayed. In fact, I agree with those who say he is portrayed the most realistically of all the major characters. Of course someone doesn't go straight from being a blacksmith in a spy fleck village to a lord with queens declaring their allegiance without some thought. At least, no one does who we want to rule. He's a good leader, but the best leaders don't think they are leaders. He has been changing, and I expect him to continue to progress. If he suddenly became a conquering warrior king, it would not be true to his character, would not ring true, and would do a disservice to the story.

 

Also, his story does not seem nearly as drawn out when doing a re-read as when waiting for the books to come out. I've been doing a reread and I'm in the middle of Knife of Dreams now. I've been shocked at how little Perrin there is in Crossroads of Twilight through Knife of Dreams. It's Elayne's chapters that drag on and on...

 

3. Perrin probably should have been left out of tGS, but I understand why he wasn't. If Towers of Midnight as a single-unit -- one book -- instead of as part in a series, then Perrin needs to have his arc fully developed in it. It wouldn't make sense to begin in the middle. I agree that could have been best accomplished by leaving him out of the Gathering Storm.

 

4. I'd actually rather have a scene depicting a chat by a wagon than another bubble of evil. Those have become boring now. Character development is more interesting.

 

5. Galad's sudden rescue was a shock. I agree with Luckers that it makes the prologue section with Galad seem redundant. Perrin could have just met up with Galad with Galad already in charge of the whitecloaks, with the necessary info filled in in a page or two.

 

6. I'm not sure I agree that being Ta'Veren is responsible for the apples appearing in the first chapter and the relatively good condition of the food in Chapter 2. Chapter one must have been channeling; it seems a bit silly for Rand to be able to just walk around healing the land at random. I understand there is a connection between Rand and the land, but it shouldn't be so extreme that his simply appearing makes an entire orchard of apples regrow. And even if the orchard did become healed simply because Rand was there, it doesn't necessary follow the same lies true for Perrin. Remember in Crossroads of Twilight when the weevils appeared? Why wouldn't Perrin's appearance have stopped the weevils then? Admittedly, I have no good explanation for why Perrin's food might be in better shape, but I'm not ready to conclude that it is because he is ta'veren.

 

It's too hard to focus at work with all this stuff coming out -- I can't wait for November 2.