The True Power

[Luckers]

Requested by lynchgrinch.

 

I have a theory regarding Rand/Graendal and True Power acces that I can't realy post anywhere else for spoiler reasons

[Elend]

Looking forward to this

[Morsker]

I wanted to discuss this too, but I decided that it would just change the question from "Did Rand have the DO's permission?" to "Did Rand have Moridin's permission?"

 

I'll wait to read the whole theory though!

[Vexorian]

Going to Hijack this thread a little.

 

But theories or questions rather would be.

 

Did Moridin give Rand access to the TP in their dream meeting perhaps to try to tempt him? If so then how much is he able to actually channel since he was able to Nerf Graendal's usage.

 

Did Rand force his way to it inadvertedly through the supposed Moridin-Rand Link?

 

Or did the DO grant him access to it for the same reasons Moridin would? It could however could be then argued that this really backfired in a way (to our current knowledge*) since Semi had Rand beat w/ the DB.

 

Or does the DO/Moridin have something bigger planned?

 

 

Lastly: Since Rand has acces to the TP could he detect if Graendal uses it near him to do a surprise attack since I believe it was established* in the prologue that only those w/ access to the TP can detect its usage? (*Correct me if I'm wrong, I listened to the audio for free with some trail verson thing so I didn't have to pay so I couldn't really go over it again.)

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

Lastly: Since Rand has acces to the TP could he detect if Graendal uses it near him to do a surprise attack since I believe it was established* in the prologue that only those w/ access to the TP can detect its usage? (*Correct me if I'm wrong, I listened to the audio for free with some trail verson thing so I didn't have to pay so I couldn't really go over it again.)

 

This is something I am interested in. Graendal seems to think only users of the TP can sense other TP users, but RJ has stated in quotes various times the TP cannot be felt by other users.

 

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

 

RJ: Well, they are, because they know this; they will use it when they have to, but they limit it, because they know that if you use it enough to let the saa begin to appear, then you are on a spiral and once they begin appearing, they begin appearing more often. And eventually, unless you are given immortality by the Dark One, you are dead. Now, the thing is, they don't wanna die. This is really great, it is a really great honor to be given the ability to tap into the True Power. Which is not inherently stronger than the One Power. It's not that it is stronger in any way. It is just something that does not have some of the limitations of the One Power. Other people can't feel you embracing it, or using it, like the One Power.

 

scifi.com chat 14 November 2000

Monkeyman: Nobody who can channel saidin or saidar can sense the True Power. And, since the Forsaken don't seem to notice Moridin channeling the True Power, is it detectable at all (besides by a gholam)? That is, can someone already holding the True Power sense another using it?

RJ: No. Not by any method we've seen yet.

 

AOL Chat #1 - 27 June 1996

AaronB20 asks: Can you clarify who can tell when one is using the True Power?

RJ: No one can tell if you're using the True Power except the Dark One, of course

 

All quotes from Theoryland Database.

 

 

I think Graendal is mistaken. RJ has said it enough for it to be clear. It is either a mistake in the text or from Graendal.

[yoniy0]

Since lynchgrinch requested this thread be opened here, I assume that he has some theory that relates to what we see about Rand in chapter 1 (possibly in connection to the fact that the weird halo of darkness is gone, replaced by a "lightness to the air, warped and bent"). Perhaps it's best to await his comments before we hijack this thread further.

[Lynchgrinch]

Right, thanks Luckers for opening the thread

 

Firstly, my theory is less of an actual theory as much as a series of questions that i cant answer myself, but it makes for interesting speculation...

 

So... Rand up and channeled the True Power right? Which previously has only been available to Moridin, the Nae'Blis. Theories have mostly stated so far that Rand managed to channel TP via his link to Moridin that formed when the balefire streams crossed at Shadar Logoth in aCoS.

 

I like this theory, it makes sence to me....but...

 

In "distinctions" we find out that Graendal can channel the TP also, proving that TP is not Nae'blis exclusive.

 

So heres my thoughts, bear with me...

 

Rand may not have channeled TP via the moridin link, perhaps it was the fact that he was "darkside" and was able to draw directly from the DO because of this alignment shift. Maby it was something to do with the intense rage/dispair he felt at the prospect of causing min's death?

 

The Gathering Storm, chapter 22- the last that could be done.

 

"Something snapped inside of him. He grew cold; then that coldness vanished, and he could feel nothing. No emotion. No anger.

 

At that moment he grew aware of a strange force..."

 

The wording of this suggest to me, NOT a LINK or BOND of some sort with Moridin, but a "darkening" of alignment. Maby somewhere deep in Rands "many lives" subconcious he knew that the only way he could save Min was to go almost completly darkside, enough so that TP acces was available. Maby this is how Rand was able to seal off his emotions for a time until VoG?

 

Using Graendal to back my thoughts up, she is NOT Nae'Blis. But can still channel TP, as we saw in "distinctions". Maby there was never realy a ban on the rest of the forsaken. Maby they had just never tried to channel it out of fear?

 

In short my theory is: you don't need to be Nae'blis to use TP or even Forsaken/chosen. If you have a suitibly "dark" alignment, TP access becomes available.

 

It's a long shot maby, a lot of "if's, buts and mabys". Tell me what you guys think.

 

cheers,

 

Lynchy

[yoniy0]

Ah. I thought it was pretty well explained by the DO needing to approve the use of TP. Moridin has a standing permission to do so. Graendal notes that she's only allowed a trickle of TP, meaning that she was accustomed to more in earlier stages (before the use of it was restricted to Moridin alone). It stands to reason that her newfound access to it is one of those rewards Moridin mentioned in the prologue to TGS.

[TankSpill]

There has been foreshadowing* that the Dark One needs Rand subverted (and not just killed very, very dead) to actually win. I think Rand was granted access to the TP by dint of the Dark One's main goal, in hopes that in "The Last Temptation of Christ"-type fashion, Rand would begin his road to Darkness (which he definitely kinda did throughout TGS).

 

 

(*Verin tells Egwene that if the Dark One gets freed in one world of If, he is freed in All (paradox).

 

*Rand visits one of the worlds of If where Trollocs overran the world - it is very unlikely that in that world, Rand (or whomever the Dragon Reborn was) survived, yet the Dark One necessarily was still not freed, since He/It wasn't freed in the real world.)

[Sharaman]

IIRC, the rest of the FS were clearly verboten to touch the TP and Aran'gar's reaction suggests the bar still holds.

Graendal was given permission (presumably due to GLoD/ Moridin being pleased) off-stage in TGS.

There is that inconsistency in the quotes versus PoV, as to who can detect TP and when.

Aran'gar works it out by elimination.

The inconsistency may be a deliberate thing - Graendal's PoV suggests that there's a lot she doesn't know about TP, and the lack of knowledge creates a potential weakness that could trip her up sometime.

One point - does a channeler with permission to use TPO have to be actually holding TP to detect another TP channeler?

Or is it like Saidin-Saidar where they'll feel/ see the glow regardless of whether they're actually holding OP or not?

Another point - how much is a "trickle" of TP? Enough to kill somebody?

[WMTom]

We all assume this was the DO hold dominion over the True Power. Is it possible the Creator could also allow access to the True Power? This would explain Rand being able to use the True Power with out actually having to get perimission from the DO.

 

Rand is the Lights champion. It would make sense for the Light to use the same weapons as the Dark.

[Duskfire]

We all assume this was the DO hold dominion over the True Power. Is it possible the Creator could also allow access to the True Power? This would explain Rand being able to use the True Power with out actually having to get perimission from the DO.

 

Rand is the Lights champion. It would make sense for the Light to use the same weapons as the Dark.

 

The Dark aura and general attitude of Rand suggests that the True Power is very much not a good thing. Not to mention he saw Moridins face an instant before he started channeling it. Its highly doubtful that it came from the Creator.

[GB]

We all assume this was the DO hold dominion over the True Power. Is it possible the Creator could also allow access to the True Power? This would explain Rand being able to use the True Power with out actually having to get perimission from the DO.

 

Rand is the Lights champion. It would make sense for the Light to use the same weapons as the Dark.

 

hmmm i think it has been said that the true power is the essence of the DO and corrupts the pattern and therefore i dont think the creator can give access to the TP

[TankSpill]

We all assume this was the DO hold dominion over the True Power. Is it possible the Creator could also allow access to the True Power? This would explain Rand being able to use the True Power with out actually having to get perimission from the DO.

 

Rand is the Lights champion. It would make sense for the Light to use the same weapons as the Dark.

 

It seems unlikely, since it is mentioned several times that the TP causes Corruption, Decay, and Madness (not necessarily always capitalized!), and that doesn't seem like something the Creator would be chummy with. On the other hand, it could possibly lend credence to the theory that there is a yin to the Dark One's TP yang, and the Creator has his own super-sekret-power called the True Gift or some such, and it's the power of Creation, Birth, and Reason.

[Duskfire]

We all assume this was the DO hold dominion over the True Power. Is it possible the Creator could also allow access to the True Power? This would explain Rand being able to use the True Power with out actually having to get perimission from the DO.

 

Rand is the Lights champion. It would make sense for the Light to use the same weapons as the Dark.

 

It seems unlikely, since it is mentioned several times that the TP causes Corruption, Decay, and Madness (not necessarily always capitalized!), and that doesn't seem like something the Creator would be chummy with. On the other hand, it could possibly lend credence to the theory that there is a yin to the Dark One's TP yang, and the Creator has his own super-sekret-power called the True Gift or some such, and it's the power of Creation, Birth, and Reason.

 

The ying to the Dark Ones yang is the One Power. The One Power is designed so men and women need to work together to get the best out of it; the True Power is easy to access and use but it comes with nasty side effects. They are the same but also in many ways the opposites.

[Caveatar]

When Meiren/Lanfear and the other researcher first tapped the DO Power they described it as a power that either gender could use. No mention was made of needing permission at the time but then they couldn't know that I suppose.

Is it really true that the DO permission is required?

Was that only discovered later?

Was the reason she went over to the DO originally to get permission to use it?

 

I suspect that the DO shields his Chosen from it in the same way that Lanfear did Asmodean.

 

Any corrections, refutations, counterpoint or contrariwise are welcome.

 

Cav

[Eht Slat Meit]

I tend to see it from this perspective, summed up in a few short-as-possible statements that might pass as rules:

 

1 The OP is part of the Pattern.

2 The TP is part of the Shadow.

3 The "Shadow" as a general term, is that which is outside the Pattern.

4 Those who are of the Pattern cannot use the TP.

5 Those who are of the Shadow cannot use the OP.

6 The exception to 4 and 5 are those individuals who have bridged Pattern and Shadow.

7 The Forsaken are an example of the exception to 4.

8 The Bridge requires an open two-way conduit, created by the dark oaths.

[cortezthekiller]

 

This is something I am interested in. Graendal seems to think only users of the TP can sense other TP users, but RJ has stated in quotes various times the TP cannot be felt by other users.

 

 

I don't think there is necessarily a disconnect here. RJ's answers suggest there MAY be a way of detecting it, we just don't (and definitely did not at the time of his answer) know how it's done. If you dissect his answers as if they were coming from an Aes Sedai (and we know he liked elusiveness), then it may in fact be possible for one TP channeler to detect another.

 

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

Other people can't feel you embracing it, or using it, like the One Power.

 

He says that they can't feel you using it, etc. like the One Power, not that there isn't necessarily another way to detect it (as I suggest below).

 

That is, can someone already holding the True Power sense another using it?

RJ: No. Not by any method we've seen yet.

 

Clearly, even if he hadn't intended on its detectability in the beginning, he was leaving the possibility open that there MAY be a way to detect it, that we don't yet know of. Much like the new weave for using animal spies that uses the TP.

 

AOL Chat #1 - 27 June 1996

RJ: No one can tell if you're using the True Power except the Dark One, of course

 

Except the Dark One. Okay, that's pretty clear, but when you are using the TP, you are "connected" to the DO right? Much like you can use the TP to use animals for spies, there very well could be a way to use the TP to communicate somehow with the DO to "see" someone who is channeling the TP.

 

I think Graendal is mistaken. RJ has said it enough for it to be clear. It is either a mistake in the text or from Graendal.

 

Why would Graendal say this unless she has tried it and seen for herself that it's possible? I guess it could be an assumption on her part, but it seems like she would hesitate to make such a claim unless she knows either from experience or second-hand knowledge. We can assume she has been in Morry's presence since she gained her new found abilities, so she would not only have a chance to attempt detecting TP channeling, but she certainly would want to know if Morry was channeling it in her presence.

 

So if has been in his presence since her new abilities were gained, I think it's safe to assume she's tried (and succeeded) in detecting TP usage.

[Rcurran]

I think it has to be the bond between rand and moridin. You've got examples of how there are strong connections that can effect you emotionally through the bond. With rand and moridin this is obviously more pronounced. When rand was under extreme pressure a lot of confusing emotions and sensations could have occurred on moridins side. Picture this - moridin minding his own business when all of a sudden he feels sick, really upset and for a moment can't feel the OP - or - feels an emotion of 'oh no, where's the OP gone?!' mixed with panick and thus make him think a similar thought. Still with me? OK, let's say in that moment if extremity moridin and rand where more connected than normal due to them both feeling the panick emotions, the. In that moment of silence moridin thought 'no, relax, you've got all the TP a man could ever need' and subconsciously allowed rand in. In that moment moridins guard snapped and he didn't notice - and neither did the GloD as he'd delegate worrying about that to moridin.

 

Just a theory I've not read yet, well, I suppose it's nothing more than the whole moridin link theory but I've supplied the necessary narrative, if you like.

[Rcurran]

Ps I hate the iPhone spell checker sometimes sorry for bad writing above,

 

Rich

[Crael123]

It is possible that the OP can be based on the Force from star wars. like Anakin went to the Dark Side to save his wife, and rand did the same cept it worked. interesting topic

[Duskfire]

It is possible that the OP can be based on the Force from star wars. like Anakin went to the Dark Side to save his wife, and rand did the same cept it worked. interesting topic

 

Its true they are similar. Except that in Star Wars there is only one force; the Light side and the Dark side are just matters of ideals. Nerd alert: there are many characters later on who embrace both because they believe that they are one and the same and the Force was meant to be balanced. The True Power and the One Power are separate.

[Lisa Campbell]

Moridin definately opened the TP to Rand. He outright told another FS he was going to. All that was needed to turn Rand dark was opportunity which Semirhage, under heavy orders, provided.

 

Now that Rand has converted back to the side of light, I don't think he will enjoy continued access to the TP. Why would Moridin/DO allow that once Rand is healing the land again? How much more power would that give him? If they can they'll cut him off at the roots... Rand's new powers probably come from powers descended from the Creator. An embodiment or merging as it were.

[mikael]

Moridin definately opened the TP to Rand. He outright told another FS he was going to. All that was needed to turn Rand dark was opportunity which Semirhage, under heavy orders, provided.

 

Now that Rand has converted back to the side of light, I don't think he will enjoy continued access to the TP. Why would Moridin/DO allow that once Rand is healing the land again? How much more power would that give him? If they can they'll cut him off at the roots... Rand's new powers probably come from powers descended from the Creator. An embodiment or merging as it were.

 

When did Moridin say he was going to allow Rand to access the TP?

[Lisa Campbell]

I'm sure I remember that correctly but can't put a nail on where from and I don't want to re-read series again this close. Can anyone help with this?