Chapter 1 "Apples First"

[duncanwright]

I am not sure Creator and DO are equal, assumption being that Creator is creator of everything, not just this universe.

Perhaps you're right. I thought I read it somewhere in the BS or RJ interviews but I can't find it now.

 

is it confirmed that the DO and the Creater are 2 distinct entities? or just the good and the evil part of one entity. and the 'creator' only sealed the 'evil' part of him away and setup the pattern as a guardian?

I'm fairly sure it isn't. And this is a good point, there is a lot on this mythology that we don't know I think.

[Cyf]

The Wheel is a corrective mechanism. Jordan compared it at one point to an uber-advanced computer. The Creator didn't plan for the Dark One to come back, didn't 'want him to'. But he created a really complex mechanism to stop such things. Or that's how I read the way he wrote the series. Basically, the Creator put checks and balances into the system (The Dragon, Pattern, etc) and is 'hands off' otherwise.

[Aquarius]

In all the questions RJ answered on the mystic/theological aspects of the wheel, I'm very much in doubt about what point of view he was taking. Did he ALWAYS answered as an external viewpoint ? the ultimate truth/reality, whatever you want to call it?

 

I often got the impression that he was answering with the viewpoint of a scholar in Randland, or philosopher, or whatever... answering the question as someone who can be utterly wrong; misleading us completely.

[jdbond]

^^So there is no Satan;)?

[DocBean]

is it confirmed that the DO and the Creater are 2 distinct entities? or just the good and the evil part of one entity. and the 'creator' only sealed the 'evil' part of him away and setup the pattern as a guardian?

 

and i dont think this has anything to do with the topic anymore ^^ sorry for spam :o

 

I used to think that. The Dark One and the Creator are two sides of the same coin.

 

Now I think the Dark One is just Emo, and wants to die.

I thought for a while that if Rand kills him, that will end all things. – goes along with the coin idea.

now I think Rand could kill him, as long as he replaces him with something just as bad. - Fain.

 

We won't know until the last book is out.

[waffle]

now I think Rand could kill him, as long as he replaces him with something just as bad. - Fain.

 

Crazy murderer with some superpowers is as bad as someone who wants to destroy everything? I just don´t see that.

[FainsLeftFoot]

Did anyone else chuckle at the America references? There were only two George Washington's wooden teeth and the whole Rand as the good ol Johnny apple seed going from town to town doing his thing to help feed a nation. Now I may be off on this as I am a Canadian but I would imagine something like this in the type of setting could well bloom into "the tale of Randy appleseed". As for the wooden teeth it made me chuckle its about time for almen to get his come-uppens in the world

 

Ok silliness aside I do love that RJ/BS brought back a small character like Almen Bunt to build up a bit of a beginning. I see it as a throwback to times when things were different and nobody actually knew who the dragon was. Good chapter no complaints

 

Besides one... Why we talking about fain this chapter has no mention of him.

[Sid]

Did anyone else chuckle at the America references? There were only two George Washington's wooden teeth and the whole Rand as the good ol Johnny apple seed going from town to town doing his thing to help feed a nation. Now I may be off on this as I am a Canadian but I would imagine something like this in the type of setting could well bloom into "the tale of Randy appleseed". As for the wooden teeth it made me chuckle its about time for almen to get his come-uppens in the world

 

Ok silliness aside I do love that RJ/BS brought back a small character like Almen Bunt to build up a bit of a beginning. I see it as a throwback to times when things were different and nobody actually knew who the dragon was. Good chapter no complaints

 

Besides one... Why we talking about fain this chapter has no mention of him.

topics tend to wander a bit sometimes...

 

I never thought about Johnny Appleseed until you brought it up, and it seems pretty obvious now.

I also agree with your kudos for the reappearance of Almen Bunt. A good queen's man should have some positive luck after all he's been through.

[Auld Manriva]

Did anyone else chuckle at the America references? There were only two George Washington's wooden teeth and the whole Rand as the good ol Johnny apple seed going from town to town doing his thing to help feed a nation. Now I may be off on this as I am a Canadian but I would imagine something like this in the type of setting could well bloom into "the tale of Randy appleseed". As for the wooden teeth it made me chuckle its about time for almen to get his come-uppens in the world

 

Ok silliness aside I do love that RJ/BS brought back a small character like Almen Bunt to build up a bit of a beginning. I see it as a throwback to times when things were different and nobody actually knew who the dragon was. Good chapter no complaints

 

Besides one... Why we talking about fain this chapter has no mention of him.

topics tend to wander a bit sometimes...

 

I never thought about Johnny Appleseed until you brought it up, and it seems pretty obvious now.

I also agree with your kudos for the reappearance of Almen Bunt. A good queen's man should have some positive luck after all he's been through.

 

Yeah, I did ... about a week ago actually.... My link

 

Do not forget, "oh-lordy-Rand's-a-hippie" folk, that The Dragon is The Champion of The Light. the Creator's Champion. So.. The Dragon IS a demi/god for all intents and purposes.

 

When I read the description of the figure coming from the direction of Dragonmount the very first mental image I had was of Moses. Then a bit further on I had this heart warming Johnny Appleseed moment, except Rand wasn't wearing a cook-pot as a hat. Too bad, that would'a been righteous and the caterwallin' that would've been going on around here would have been of Epic Proportion.

[Crael123]

^^So there is no Satan;)?

 

Uh yes. there is.

[Crael123]

Not spoiling the convo but what does this have to do with chapter 1?

[FainsLeftFoot]

@ Auld: sorry I didn't read that thread but I am glad I wasn't the only one who got the same image of Rand.

[jdbond]

^^So there is no Satan;)?

 

Uh yes. there is.

 

 

 

I am sorry. I didn't know that you had seen this guy or you two were friends!

[Grape_Ape]

Don't we get a prophecy in every book that kinda says that Dragon will born in this age and ages to come, again and again? I don't understand why people believe this Dragon can do anything that last Dragon failed to do? It's in Dragon's nature to be born and fight DO again and again. The sole reason for it's creation.

 

P.S: Min also gives a glimpse of possible future where DO was defeated, again.

 

Its because Fain is unique to this turning. So therefore, the result can be different because of that unique variable.

 

And doesn't one of the Forsaken mention that this is going to be the last Last Battle. I REALLY wish I could remember where I saw that. Yeah, I know there is counter evidence and I know it was being spoken by a Forsaken. However, the Forsaken have been shown to be correct in what they believe is true when general Randland consensus on a subject is inaccurate.

 

Just sayin' it's a possibility. One I would personally welcome. If this turning had more or less the same outcome as every other turning, what would be the point of writing the story in the first place? The same old ending would be pedestrian at best. Plus the repeated references to this being just another turning are almost screaming "red herring" IMHO. Maybe I'm wrong but I sure hope not. Guess I'll find out in March of 2012.

[bloodyflamingthisandthat]

I don't know, I'm kind of thinking that Fain/Mordeth/Enough with the Obvious last names already will be the DO in the next age because the Ghollum thing has already been done and it's so obvious that he has a huge role to play

 

"My ancient enemy, the Dragon walks the land again."- DO to Demandred in LOC

 

It could work, and it would be a great twist on an old plot device, eg. RJ's style to the extreme.

[DocBean]

I don't know, I'm kind of thinking that Fain/Mordeth/Enough with the Obvious last names already will be the DO in the next age because the Ghollum thing has already been done and it's so obvious that he has a huge role to play

 

"My ancient enemy, the Dragon walks the land again."- DO to Demandred in LOC

 

It could work, and it would be a great twist on an old plot device, eg. RJ's style to the extreme.

 

Hey! I've finally converted someone to believe my theory!

 

 

"And the one became two."

Which I've been told by my good friend Doctor Donald that is quite a complex procedure.

He says typically they take cats of some sort that are joined and take them apart. But I've always said two heads are better then one.

and two Hats can often be found on sale.

[DocBean]

I have recently been working on the land for Almen Bunt.

My main job was to try and clear the Lower Field of Thistles and Weeds.

I Toiled long hours to make that Field of Hostility into a Field of Dreams.

Unfortunately just as I was making Progress the Farmers daughter told him I had been also Trying to "Tend to her Garden!"

I was Chased off the farm by an Extremely Irate Farmer Bunt Brandishing a Sharp Pitchfork!.

The Crazy thing was I had never even Met his Daughter, and thought he had only 2 sons!

 

Go figure.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Good golly. I think Doc Bean is losing it. Somebody get him a toddy and a cool cloth.

 

To reiterate a couple of important points others have mentioned:

 

The line about finding what you need but focusing on it only enough to learn rather than be overwhelmed most likely referred to his new Dragon Memories.

The apples are a manifestation of his new All-Dragons-Integration. His oneness with the land. We are starting to see some of what it meant ( in a positive sense ) to be The Lord of the Morning and The Prince of the Dawn.

 

Prediction: There will be lots of "ups" in this book. Right up until probably the last chapter. Then something terrible will happen and things will be left very Dark at books end.

[lordofsoup]

they are always like that. Either it is really happy until the end, or it is really sad until the end where everything gets happy

[Shai-tan]

Hey I found an interesting quote from LoC Chapter 1

 

 

"It had come on him slowly, but the more Rand learned of the One Power, the stronger he became with saidin, the stronger Lews Therin’s voice became, and the harder Rand had to fight to keep a dead man’s thoughts from taking him over. "

 

 

Could Rand's insanity combined with being full of saidin through the choden kal have caused his enlightenment/join with "Lews-Therin" in VoG?

[Terez]

I always assumed this was a conflation on Rand's part. He got stronger with the Power by forcing himself, including the two scenes where he used a sa'angreal at the end of books 3 and 4. Brandon said the taint had at least something to do with the emergence of the past life memories. Then, after Asmodean started training him, he happened to be getting stronger in the Power at the time when the memories were getting stronger. They weren't necessarily related, and if they were related, I'd tend to think it had more to do with the taint than the Power itself.

 

Rand's memories integrated because he finally accepted that he and Lews Therin were one and the same. It took him almost killing his father to even consider it, because he had been trying to pretend before that he was not responsible for the Kinslaying (and that the grief he felt over the memory of Ilyena was another man's grief). He had to not only accept that he was Lews Therin, but also confront the grief and the suicidal thoughts that it inspired before his memories could be integrated.

[Luckers]

Yeah I agree with everything Terez just said. The progression of Lews Therin's growth and saidin are related, in the sense that Rand's progression with saidin is related to his exposure to the Taint. Rand and Lews Therin remained apart because Rand forced them apart by refusing to accept that they weren't two different men, but rather the same soul. When he finally accepted that in tGS he and Lews Therin finally intergrated, as per Semirhages comments.

[dwn]

Rand's growing strength with the Power also coincided with his growing responsibility and stress, which certainly contributed to his downward spiral.

 

-- dwn

[Cyf]

I more or less agree as well. LTT was never real, he was simply memories that Rand's mind created because he refused to accept whom he was, a secondary personality from the taint.

 

Which is kind of lucky. Curing the taint doesn't cure the madness, but Rand managed to integrate the secondary personality. While I'm sure there will be physical and mental repercussions, at least he's not like some other male channelers reduced to childhood and such.

[algspkr]

I have a thought on Lucker's body swap theory. If I remember correctly an integral part of the theory is that Moridin will have to channel sadin rather than the true power in Rand's proximity. I do not believe he has suggested a reason for this.

 

We know that the true power is the unraveling of the pattern and now Rand seems to undo that, could it be that Rand has become immune and Moridin will have to use sadin when facing Rand now?