Amyrlin Egwene: The dirty little secrets

[Lambada]

Disclaimer: I like Egwene, but even so some things grate on me.

 

Egwene has many many skeletons in the closet, some of which may warrant execution.

 

Let's list the reasons why.

 

1) She obtained fealty from several people. She said that Elaida wanting an Oath for the same thing is wrong.

2) Her reign is at least partly based on the lie that the Red's set up Logain.

3) She knowingly broke Tower Law by hiding Moghedian from the Hall.

4) She knowingly did not report Sisters giving each other fourth oaths of obedience (much like number 1)

5) She knowingly has kept the highly unconventional passing of Lan's bond secret.

 

Boy, she sure does seem to have some skeletons, and is particularly hypocritical when it comes to following Tower Law and forcing obedience.

 

Is this enough to get her executed (per Min's visions)?

Discuss...

 

EDIT:

Added another two

6) She impersonated Aes Sedai when she was only an Accepted

7) She divulged knowledge of the 13th depository to someone not authorised to know of it. Yet in Book 7 it is thought (I think by Egwene) that doing so is treason.

[yoniy0]

I think numbers 2,4,5 are none of her fault, and I doubt they would even cost her if they were made public. Number 1 is trickier. I didn't like the hypocrisy as well. I don't think it warrants an execution, but she would be severely reprimanded by the Hall if they found out.

And, of course, she might well be deposed and Stilled if people found out she was harboring a Forsaken. I would say that she deserved as much, but I can't condemn her when I'm unwilling to fault Rand for the same offence.

[DemandredFO]

You're going to make me partially defend Egwene; Eww yuk.  It seems to me that she and elaida are equally guilty of 1.  2 is True, 3 is pardonable because of what they learned but she should've kept a closer eye on Moghedien.  As with 3; 4&5 were necessary evils.  My biggest problem with Egwene is she expects others to be models of virtue and comes down on them when they aren't but think's she as white as the driven snow.  Example being her forcing the rebels to apologize for their rebellion, she should've said, "your rebellion was just but it must not happen again.  How did she expect to pull down Eliada, ask nicely?  One of the things Egwene really needs to do(which she won't) is apologize to Nyneave because she started bullying her because she didn't want the WO to know that she was in T'A'R despite her promise.  Now she bullies Nyneave for the fun of it.

[nolirion]

Rand was damn not the same thing !!!

He was in a position where this was is only choice , learn to control saidin or die trying with no guidance . But you would perhaps prefer him been trained by Ishi?

Don't forget the taint issue to and Lanfear didn't truly give him a choice.

To make it simple Rand cut the bound betwin the Do and asmodean ; Egwene should have stilled her on the spot or killed her , this is way not the same thing .

[DemandredFO]

No Egwene needed Moghedien not to the same extent as Rand needed Asmodean but to some yes.  Egwene didn't put enough safeguards and didn't even bother investigating the report that Halima may have been seen around Marigon's tent.  Please stop making me defend Egwene ;D

[nolirion]

To my opinion she did not , she rediscover travelling by her own she could have done the rest it would had had more value .

[Shadow Rider]

Also, Playing at Aes Sedai before raising herself...but i suppose thats not a capital affence....  

[Duskfire]

Well, Egwene seems to suffer from the whole "do what I say, not what I do." After all, if she found out another Aes Sedai had captured a Forsaken and then let them escape, can guarantee that she would be beyond angry with them.

[Charlz Fel]

I'm going to specifically address 1).  Elaida wanted to make all Aes Sedai swear an Oath of obedience; Egwene made a few people swear an oath of fealty.  Note the lower case "o".  The oath to Egwene was much weaker than an Oath; for instance, the sworn Aes Sedai were able to refuse to give Egwene the names of their Ajah heads.  Furthermore, Egwene saw these oaths as a temporary measure, something to stop Sheriam's council from manipulating her.  I will not be surprised if she releases all the sisters involved now that she is in control of the Tower.

 

As far as the hypocrisy charge goes (again, specifically addressing number one): Egwene's anger at Elaida was based on the fact that the Three Oaths are, in Egwene's opinion, the defining feature of the Aes Sedai; to tinker with them is akin to sacrilege.  The oaths of fealty to Egwene had no bearing on the Three Oaths.

[Senexx]

I just think welcome to practical politics.

[farthammer]

I'm not sure if there really are any Aes Sedai that are innocent of never breaking any of the laws.  I realize that's unknowable because we don't have police reports or something for every AS in the book.  But we just see so many of them sit right in the gray area of being shady as all hell if they think they can get away with it.

[Achala]

Elaida, if I remember correctly, was planning to make the Aes Sedai swear to obey her on the Oath Rod, whereas Egwene took their oath on the faith of them being bound by the first Oath. Nowhere near as custom shattering as Elaida's idea.

 

I have to admit though, that Egwene has really risen as a character from EOTW. She's become a lot more, palatable, shall we say? Yes, the Nynaeve bullying is deplorable, but you can't really blame her for wanting to get a bit of her own back on someone who pushed her around when she was a kid. And Egwene doesn't take pushing around lightly.

 

Hell, at least she's managed to control that during her time in the tower, although soup dumping probably isn't the best recourse for anger management. :P

[Hadilmir]

1) She obtained fealty from several people. She said that Elaida wanting an Oath for the same thing is wrong.

2) Her reign is at least partly based on the lie that the Red's set up Logain.

3) She knowingly broke Tower Law by hiding Moghedian from the Hall.

4) She knowingly did not report Sisters giving each other fourth oaths of obedience (much like number 1)

5) She knowingly has kept the highly unconventional passing of Lan's bond secret.

 

Boy, she sure does seem to have some skeletons, and is particularly hypocritical when it comes to following Tower Law and forcing obedience.

1. Not technically an offense. An oath of fealty isn't as binding as people are assuming. Safe on this one.

2. I'm fairly certain she doesn't know this for a lie. Safe on this one.

3. I have a problem with this one, the only thing that kept Egwene from losing major face was her immediate execution of the Black Ajah after learning a lesson from Moghedian. Major loss of power, but no stilling.

4. Report them to ...Elaida? Jeopardize their safety by revealing their quest to the Black Ajah? Safe on this one.

5. It isn't unlawful. Safe on this one.

 

Egwene's fairly safe from Stilling right now. She is the only capable leader for Tarmon Gai'don that the Aes Sedai have and some are beginning to see it.

[Ozzie_aiel]

To quote a favorite saying of mine, "Its only illegal if you get caught!"

 

How many other Aes Sedai have broken laws, flouted rules and snubbed tradition? When they are caught, they are punished. Every Aes Sedai knows this.

[Agitel]

All that needs to be said is "that's politics for you".

 

lol

 

At least how I see it.

[Durinax]

the main problem i have for #1 is that it is slightly less agaisnt custom but just as powerful as on the OR, plus she can do it is she wishes but rand cannot under any circumstances

 

2) I tihnk that will still cause problems between the red ajah and the rast

 

3) that one I believe is still worthy, after all the only useful thing they learned from her is the new healing weaves (minor thing) and cuendillar making (only used for the one war effort) and allowing such a person to escape, egwene deserves a public birchign for that one

 

4) this one could cause her problems too, although she made them get rid of those oaths on non BA I believe, and being BA they are no longer AS, but does that mean that they used compulsionary techniques, something that is outlawed

 

5) this could be problematic because it is the uncrowned king of Malkier, and everyone knows his story and his importance (in some way)

 

6) the posing as AS for a long period could get her a few weeks penance, no better

 

combine all of them coming out at once and you could get stilling or months of penance, which would allow the hall to gain more power and potentially make egwene a figurehead

[farthammer]

It's just not going to happen and they spcifically chose her to replace Elaida so as not to be a figurehead.  Turning around and taking a character who has been around since book 1 and making them irrelevant over technicalities as soon as they wind up in a lasting role is the dumbest idea ever.

[Durinax]

It's just not going to happen and they spcifically chose her to replace Elaida so as not to be a figurehead.  Turning around and taking a character who has been around since book 1 and making them irrelevant over technicalities as soon as they wind up in a lasting role is the dumbest idea ever.

I could see it happen just to she how ineffective, beaurocratic the AS are, especially if it turns out to be a BA/forsaken plot to make the tower ineffective again. Could also show how inequipped the tower is at detecting/countering enemy plans which is important because we already know they are 'master' manipulators

[farthammer]

I think it has already been demonstrated, overwhelmingly that the AS are inept, and they only think of themselves as master manipulators.  There's just no need in the storyline to prove that they suck because that was done by book four or five.

[alannalynn]

All I have to say is that it's all for the greater good. I'm not going to read all y'alls evidence or whatnots because I don't particularly care, but what Egwene has done is for the greater good of the world preparing for TG. We couldn't have a Black Ajah filled White Tower with a mad woman in charge, couldn't have Moggy running around NOR stilled and killed before knowledge was claimed, couldn't trust anyone in a world that's crumbling to the ground around them unless oaths were sworn-- what she did was for the betterment of the world in preparation for the Last Battle and I don't really fault her for that.

[Doselan]

Also, with all of these, don't forget that Egwene was put under special circumstances and in war times.  Sometimes you have to bend a rule here or there in order to get things done under such circumstances.  If she'd done anything different, I'm fairly sure she'd have lost power and the tower would have crumbled.  We have to keep the main goal in site here, not for her to keep the letter of the law, but to keep the tower whole. 

 

And as far as her accepting fealty from sisters but berating Elaida for wanting to make fealty another oath.  Consider the difference.  If you capture somebody and make them your slave, this is wrong.  But if somebody willingly comes to you and offers their service, is it the same thing to accept?  Forcing somebody to swear fealty would be abominable, however accepting fealty from somebody willingly giving it is a completely different matter.  Not to mention how much she needed it at the time.

[yoniy0]

You go too far. She did coerce those oaths.

[farthammer]

Did she cause the circumstances in which they were in a position to have to consider swearing fealty?  Not the fear of having whatever they were doing revealed, but was it Egwene's fault for their actions that they were afraid of having revealed?

[talligan]

Egwene's Secrets: Or how I learned to stop lying and love the manipulation (of truth)

[Doselan]

You go too far. She did coerce those oaths.

 

Again, I'm not saying everything she did was right.  She did coerce them (not demand them though), and use the tools she had at the time to achieve the ultimate goal.  But even still, there's a difference between backing sisters into a corner to get oaths at a time when it matters most for the tower/world; and requiring all sister to swear fealty by law for your own selfish pride.