Will Moiraine be

[Hemis AlRhoid]

I don't think we have any evidence that the reason the bond was broken was the door melted.  However, we do have evidence of the warder bond being broken with death or stilling.  We know she is alive, so we can assume she was stilled.  I don't think even the DO knows that stilling can be cured.  I am not really sure why Cyndane's power is less than Lanfear, though.

 

I read that to mean both were severed and Lanfear was healed by a woman who knows Nynaeve's weaves.

 

As far as the doorways and Tower are concerned. The term "realm" does not have to infer a separate dimension. It can be used to describe a nation or state. Many stories have used the title "defender of the realm" or similar.

 

Both went through the door holding the power. The door exploded. The explosion severed both. Lanfear was likely killed by the beings beyond the doorway. Reincarnated. Healed by a woman. Moraine is still trapped. 

[Val Mickey]

Cyndane is still Forsaken strength (as per Graendal's POV), so I assume no Healing (by a woman at least) was involved. Siuan dropped from Moirane's level to probably Corele's level (couldn't travel), while Cyndane has around Moghedien's strength. The decrease isn't enough to explain stilling being healed, unless Damer healed her. In which case the decrease wouldn't be significant enough to notice.

[Random Man]

Cyndane is still Forsaken strength (as per Graendal's POV), so I assume no Healing (by a woman at least) was involved. Siuan dropped from Moirane's level to probably Corele's level (couldn't travel), while Cyndane has around Moghedien's strength. The decrease isn't enough to explain stilling being healed, unless Damer healed her. In which case the decrease wouldn't be significant enough to notice.

The main problem in saying that Lanfear couldn't have been healed by a woman (else she would have been much, much weaker) is that we don't know how far above the norm Lanfear was pre-Finnland. We know that strength in the OP is distributed along a bell curve, with Lanfear at the extreme high end and Siuan at just above the midpoint for strength distribution (which pre-Wonder Girls was near the high end of the 3rd Agers but was nowhere near how strong it was possible to be). The rankings on the 13th Depository had Lanfear at level 21, I think, and Siuan at either level 11 or 12 (Elayne and Egwene were at 15 and Nyn was at 18). A theory has been put forth in other places (i.e. I can't take credit for it since I didn't think of it but can't remember where I read it) that a woman healed by another woman drops down a channeler's strength by a finite amount as distributed among a bell curve. This would mean that someone already at the top would still be quite strong after being healed.

 

Let me use Intelligence Quotient as an example of a bell curve. The average score is 100 with a standard deviation (S.D.) of 15. A person with a score two standard deviations above this, at 130, is considered gifted, and someone with a score two S.D. below, at 70, has an intellectual disability (mentally retarded for the non-politically correct types.) Someone with a score of 180 or higher is considered genius (most tests cut off after 160), and Marilyn vos Savant, once rated as having the "highest IQ" had a "recalculated" score of 218.

 

So, arbitrarily for the sake of this example, let's put Siuan at 120 (significantly above average) and Lanfear at 210 (about as close to the top as you can come). Then someone comes along with a shovel and whacks Siuan and Lanfear in their heads. The resulting brain damage causes a loss of 50 I.Q. points. So now you have Siuan with an I.Q. of 70, and Lanfear with an I.Q. of 160. Whereas Siuan now has an intellectual disability and is off riding the short bus, Lanfear still remains well above even what's considered gifted intelligence. Lanfear's loss would be marked among those who knew her from before (as it was by Graendal), but she'd still be near the top.

[Val Mickey]

Finite drop theory? A percentage drop sounds more in tune with the series.

 

So Lanfear was super-strong, not just super-strong, but uber-hyper-super-strong? Even after dropping 50 points she was stronger than Moghedien or Graendal?

 

I just think that Lanfear always carried an angreal, one of the ivory set of combs and pins. Her POV implies differently, but I can see it work.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Finite drop theory? A percentage drop sounds more in tune with the series.

 

So Lanfear was super-strong, not just super-strong, but uber-hyper-super-strong? Even after dropping 50 points she was stronger than Moghedien or Graendal?

 

I just think that Lanfear always carried an angreal, one of the ivory set of combs and pins. Her POV implies differently, but I can see it work.

 

It's been said by Lews Therin that Lanfear was the strongest and most beautiful woman channeler in the Age of Legends.

 

On Moiraine, if she was stilled it can be healed, but given the evidence I would think she has been burned out. Burned out and stilled are two COMPLETELY different things. Stilling there is a connection which has been "severed" between the channeler and the One Power. Said channeler can still sense the power, but is unable to reach it. Burned out means that the connection has completely disappeared. There is no connection anymore. The channeler can no longer sense the One Power.

 

Now when Nynaeve (And Flinn) healed severing, what they did was patch up the severed connection. But with burning out, there is no cut in the connection to heal, because there is no connection. If Moiraine was severed, no problem, she can be healed and we can all move on. But that seems like it would be unnecessary, because if its so easily and harmlessly fixed, why even put it in there? Now if she was burned out.... It is entirely possible, even probable, that she cannot be healed and will never channel again.

 

On the other hand. Moiraine has been known to have several tricks other Aes Sedai don't know of. Is it possible she knows of a way to snap the Warder bond so she could fake her death, possibly because the rings told her she must?

[Never]

I don't see a problem with Moiraine and Thom marrying. Or, I see problems, but it's still possible. Wise Ones that can channel get married all the time.

[Duskfire]

I like the idea of Moiraine being burned out. Not because I am a sadist or anything, but because it would add alot more emphasisim on the true qualities of her character, as well as make her and Thom alot more believable, for lack of a better word.

[DemandredFO]

On Cyndane, could she have been healed by Ishamael and the True Power?  We saw him temporarily heal Lews Therin.

[Mardragon]

Finite drop theory? A percentage drop sounds more in tune with the series.

 

So Lanfear was super-strong, not just super-strong, but uber-hyper-super-strong? Even after dropping 50 points she was stronger than Moghedien or Graendal?

That's pretty much how I saw it. She was that strong that being healed by a woman meant she was still strong, even though substantially weaker than she was originally. Works for me. I actually thought she might have been healed by Moghedien. Although it seems likely that Cyndane was already in Haran's clutches at the point Moghedien was taken we don't know what state she was in. We do know Moghedien wasn't far from Nynaeve when she discovered the healing of severing. I wouldn't be surprised if she picked up the weave at some point.

 

On Moiraine, if she was stilled it can be healed, but given the evidence I would think she has been burned out. Burned out and stilled are two COMPLETELY different things.  Stilling there is a connection which has been "severed" between the channeler and the One Power. Said channeler can still sense the power, but is unable to reach it. Burned out means that the connection has completely disappeared. There is no connection anymore.

 

Really? I'm not trying to be argumentative I honestly can't remember.   From what I do remember my understanding of burning out is that it's basically accidental self-severing. I.e. you channel too much or lose concentration while drawing on the source or channelling and effectively... snap! I think they're exactly the same thing, albeit the cause is different. Hence I think both can be healed the same way.

 

I do remember a certain ambiguity as to whether or not a person could feel the one source afterwards though. I know it was specifically stated that with stilling you can feel the source,  and I vaguely remember an account of someone separated from the source entirely, without sensing, but I don't remember if that was all people who are burnt out or a specific case. Also a lot of these rules weren't properly nailed down properly until later in the books.

 

Even if they are different I think it is a matter of degree rather than as complete as you suggest. So it might still be possible to heal, but more work would be required, i.e. the same weave as for mending severing just... more of it. (Yes I know that's probably too simplistic.) Like the difference between giving a skin graft and building an entire nose. (Probably a poor illustration but I'm sure you get what I mean.)

 

As to which Moiraine suffered, I think it could quite easily be either. She could have been stilled by Lanfear out of pure spite, but considering the fact it looks like the same thing happened to Lanfear at some point I'm thinking it was the same cause. Probably not the door melting in itself, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was indirectly responsible.

 

 

[dmanmiller34]

OK Here is my wild speculation on this. Morianne stilled or burned out makes little differece in the long run returns. She as a NON Aessedai takes the Sun throne To completely Cement them to Rand. No Regent but an Actaul leader that the people will unite around. One of their own. She and Thom will do this. Rand may even appoint her to speed it up. She and thom will lead the Carihieian armies to the last battle. There is little for her plot line to tie yp with her as a channneler IMO but lots she can do as just a noble woman.

 

And another thought about the age difference between Thom and her. Who is to say that time does not pass dofferently in the finns world. Maybe Morianne will be just as old as Thom when she is rescued.

[Tollieman]

Old, wrinkly Moiraine. Interesting. Not sure in a good way though  ;) !

[Lord of the Morning]

The Ashaman generally (at all?) haven't got married after learning to channel. We have seen a few hints that there are some problems with the extant relationships and how they're evolving.

Also the majority of Ashaman are probably still unaware that they will live much much longer than they expected

 

A middle-aged woman marrying somebody 20-30 years older. People do often enough.

A channeler, who is going to live 250-300 years marrying somebody, who will live 75-80.

That's different. 

Closer to the one somebody takes when they decide to adopt a kitten.

I don't think Thom would have a problem, dealing with it. Moiraine might.

Think Aragorn -Arwen if you like - it's a very cold,hard choice.

 

 

Will they all burn out? 

I think one way the whole saga could end, is with the power to channel being removed. Foreshadowed by hints that there are ages when channeling is forgotten and RJ's statement that this is a reflection of our world and time is cyclic. Perhaps whatever Rand will need to do will involve getting rid of OP or suppressing the channeling gene?. 

 

I thought it would be a cool turn of events if post TG the Seanchan take control of Randland, and eventually cull the ability to channel, or at least to spark out of mankind.  Could be remedied by the lances of fire amosk and amerk supposedly used, causing genetic mutations in the nuclear fall out, leading the human race back to the discovery of the power.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Finite drop theory? A percentage drop sounds more in tune with the series.

 

So Lanfear was super-strong, not just super-strong, but uber-hyper-super-strong? Even after dropping 50 points she was stronger than Moghedien or Graendal?

That's pretty much how I saw it. She was that strong that being healed by a woman meant she was still strong, even though substantially weaker than she was originally. Works for me. I actually thought she might have been healed by Moghedien. Although it seems likely that Cyndane was already in Haran's clutches at the point Moghedien was taken we don't know what state she was in. We do know Moghedien wasn't far from Nynaeve when she discovered the healing of severing. I wouldn't be surprised if she picked up the weave at some point.

 

On Moiraine, if she was stilled it can be healed, but given the evidence I would think she has been burned out. Burned out and stilled are two COMPLETELY different things.  Stilling there is a connection which has been "severed" between the channeler and the One Power. Said channeler can still sense the power, but is unable to reach it. Burned out means that the connection has completely disappeared. There is no connection anymore.

 

Really? I'm not trying to be argumentative I honestly can't remember.  From what I do remember my understanding of burning out is that it's basically accidental self-severing. I.e. you channel too much or lose concentration while drawing on the source or channelling and effectively... snap! I think they're exactly the same thing, albeit the cause is different. Hence I think both can be healed the same way.

 

I do remember a certain ambiguity as to whether or not a person could feel the one source afterwards though. I know it was specifically stated that with stilling you can feel the source,  and I vaguely remember an account of someone separated from the source entirely, without sensing, but I don't remember if that was all people who are burnt out or a specific case. Also a lot of these rules weren't properly nailed down properly until later in the books.

 

Even if they are different I think it is a matter of degree rather than as complete as you suggest. So it might still be possible to heal, but more work would be required, i.e. the same weave as for mending severing just... more of it. (Yes I know that's probably too simplistic.) Like the difference between giving a skin graft and building an entire nose. (Probably a poor illustration but I'm sure you get what I mean.)

 

As to which Moiraine suffered, I think it could quite easily be either. She could have been stilled by Lanfear out of pure spite, but considering the fact it looks like the same thing happened to Lanfear at some point I'm thinking it was the same cause. Probably not the door melting in itself, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was indirectly responsible.

 

 

 

"The stilled woman, like the man who has been gentled, is cut off from the True Source, always tantalized by the sense of saidar, yet unable to touch or channel it. The woman who is burned out can neither channel nor sense the Power. Stilling is usually done as punishment for a crime, while burnout occurs through overload or misuse of the power, or is the result of losing to an attack by a greater power while channeling."

 

From the "The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time" or "The Guide". So stilling and burning out are completely different, and I don't think being burned out can be healed since the connection to the Source is gone completely.

[Sharaman]

There's been an inconclusive argument earlier in this forum whether what Rand did at Dumai's Wells led to  burnouts. In which case, Flynn can heal it.

Not very clear from the descriptions, whether it was burnout or stilling.

 

Also, the Setalle Anan description when she wears the A'dam with Jolene is unclear, else one could have compared it to Suian with Moggy since we know Anan was burnt and we know Siuan could sense Moggy. 

 

[Padraic_Seebrr]

There's been an inconclusive argument earlier in this forum whether what Rand did at Dumai's Wells led to  burnouts. In which case, Flynn can heal it.

Not very clear from the descriptions, whether it was burnout or stilling.

 

Also, the Setalle Anan description when she wears the A'dam with Jolene is unclear, else one could have compared it to Suian with Moggy since we know Anan was burnt and we know Siuan could sense Moggy.   

 

 

Hmmm... When Rand broke free of his shield? My mind is fuzzy on the details of it, but didn't he make a reference to cutting or something? Or did he overload them? And Setalle couldn't feel anything with the a'dam right?

[Fains nose]

There was no ambiguaty with satelle anan, she couldnt feel anything through the adam, siuan could. Thus people who have been stilled can sense through the adam, burnt out cant

[Mystica]

Considering that Lanfear as Cyndane can channel (even if reduced in power) it is logical to assume Moiraine will be able too (perhaps also reduced in power). Nothing indicates that the severing and consequent Healing had to have taken place. The reduction in strength can be a side-effect from remaining in Finnland after a specific period of time. Perhaps the place itself drains the ability out of a person over time.

 

The melting of the doorway is most likely indeed the cause of her bond to Lan being broken. Or perhaps interrupted in such a way that it felt the same to Lan.

 

I believe Moiraine will come out and channel again and be one of the three to use Callendor, maybe even be the one to controle the flows as Rand trusts her above all other Aes Sedai, even above those from his own village. The list of women he recites constantly will shatter upon her return, as her 'death' created the list so will her return destroy it, and she will become a healing element between Rand and the WT. An Aes Sedai he trust not because she's sworn to him, but because she's already proven herself with the ultimate sacrifice.

 

It wouldn't surprise me to see Moiraine being the one to teach Cadsuane how to handle the 'boys' so that she, in turn, can fullfill Min's vision of her and teach them what they need to learn.

[Sharaman]

There's been an inconclusive argument earlier in this forum whether what Rand did at Dumai's Wells led to  burnouts. In which case, Flynn can heal it.

Not very clear from the descriptions, whether it was burnout or stilling.

 

Also, the Setalle Anan description when she wears the A'dam with Jolene is unclear, else one could have compared it to Suian with Moggy since we know Anan was burnt and we know Siuan could sense Moggy.   

 

 

Hmmm... When Rand broke free of his shield? My mind is fuzzy on the details of it, but didn't he make a reference to cutting or something? Or did he overload them? And Setalle couldn't feel anything with the a'dam right?

 

Rand didn't cut, he "crushed them with fists of spirit". One key point is that we don't know if they could sense the source or not, later. This could be interpreted in line with the "overpowered by a stronger channeler" style of burn-out.

Setalle Anan - we don't know for sure if she felt Jolene or not. Also Siuan was using an unusual A'dam, which allowed freedom of movement, whereas the standard Seanchan issue doesn't. Enough difference for people to argue about it.

 

 

[Jeangray]

Well, there is no evidence whether burnout can or can't be Healed. But if Cynfear was weakened due to the same-gender Healing, then it follows that if Moiraine was burnt out in the first place, she could be Healed too.

Personally, I find it interesting that Moiraine was clawing an angreal from Lanfear when  last seen - maybe she used Lanfear's shock of falling through to cause her to burn out. No need to re-tread Siuan's footsteps, IMHO.

 

I also think that if Setalle wasn't meant to be Healed, she would have attached herself to Aludra's artillery research, along with Egeanin.

[Sharaman]

In my idle moments I wonder when/ where Setalle and Flynn will meet.

She has the most obvious connection with Fortuona, who respects and likes her and debated morality with her.

If she is also revealed as marath-damane, it may induce a reconciliation.

 

[Fains nose]

I just dont see Moiraine fitting back into the Aes Sedai scene; with Ewgwene as Amyrylin, Siuans situation, Cadsuane in the picture, and Moiraine at reduced strength, i just dont see it. I think she will choose not to be healed, she will be Rands friend and Thoms lover, theres no point of her being Aes Sedai or channeling anymore. I would bet money that she will choose not to be healed and when ToM comes out i will quote myself from here to prove i was correct

[DemandredFO]

Just because Moiraine gets herself healed(hopefully by a man) does not mean she needs be Aes Sedai or she can be one of the few who really are Servants of All.  She needs to pound sense into Egwene too.

On another subject, to add to stilling vs. burnout.  I wont rehash what others have said, but do we really know if burn out is different, AS think it is and therefore it is.  Stilling is done as punishment and they done study burnout so how does anyone know.  As for the guide, I thought I remembered seeing somewhere that some parts of the guide were written to be vague or incorrect.

[Hemis AlRhoid]

That Lanfear was able to be restored is a good indicator that Moraine can be as well (I believe the same incident severed both). As for Moraine not being Aes Sedai, I don't see that happening. Her dedication is unwavering. She is Aes Sedai to the core. However I do see her bending things to suit her interpretation as always.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Just because Moiraine gets herself healed(hopefully by a man) does not mean she needs be Aes Sedai or she can be one of the few who really are Servants of All.  She needs to pound sense into Egwene too.

On another subject, to add to stilling vs. burnout.  I wont rehash what others have said, but do we really know if burn out is different, AS think it is and therefore it is.  Stilling is done as punishment and they done study burnout so how does anyone know.  As for the guide, I thought I remembered seeing somewhere that some parts of the guide were written to be vague or incorrect.

 

The quote was fairly direct, and evidence from the books describing burnouts collaborate with it.

 

That Lanfear was able to be restored is a good indicator that Moraine can be as well (I believe the same incident severed both). As for Moraine not being Aes Sedai, I don't see that happening. Her dedication is unwavering. She is Aes Sedai to the core. However I do see her bending things to suit her interpretation as always.

 

Lanfear died in the stone doorway. She was brought back to life by the Dark One. Since it was that body, not her soul, that had been severed or burned out, I don't think she would need healing. But then how did she lose that power.... No idea. Perhaps something involved with the angreal or finns.

[Sharaman]

Lanfear was held captive by both sets of Finns before she was weakened in the power - that's clear from her PoV when she's fighting Alivia at Shadar Logoth.

So she didn't die in the doorway, while she and Moiraine were falling through it.

Also if a channeler is stilled and then transmigrated, Maria (MAFO) confirmed he/she would need to be healed in the new body before he/she could channel.