The Amyrlin's Anger

[Cirin]

I think it would be hilarious if he integrated, and Egwene started in on him. All he'd have to do is tell her he's more Aes Sedai than she is, and that the modern AS equate to nothing more than a pack of squabbling, petty and self-centered girls. :D

 

Or even just Egwene telling Rand that he needs their guidance, and him just laughing and saying "Alright then, what am I supposed to do to defeat the Dark One?"  I imagine Egwene would get a bit flustered, since probably the closest anyone has come to figuring that out is Rand.  I don't think even Llews Therin really knew how to do it entirely... at least not the way that it is supposed to be done.  The whole cuendillar seals always seemed like a "Plan B" to me... a stop gap measure, not a true resealing of the Bore (even if the women had helped out).

[draconian]

Without any number of things being done by any number of people, the Light will not win.

besides mat perrin and rand there r very few of those must happen and many more of xyz will increase the chances of victory. an example would be min's viewing that he is all but doom to fail without the aid of a dead women. that isnt a must its an issue of chance.

 

Diplomacy?  Incredibly important.  Belief and order give strength.  The world needs to believe in the Dragon Reborn, and have order and unity, and the Dragon Reborn needs the world to believe in him.

the vast mojority of people in non-seanchan controlled land distrust the white tower at best so they will be little to no help with believe and order. much of the chaos has been do to the work of  fain DFs and the forsaken. i have yet to see an example of how the white tower can help. seanchan r the major diplomatic event that must happen and the white tower will only get in the way with that event.  

 

I think when Robert Jordan said in an interview that the Good Guys are in a really tight spot, what it boiled down to is that although Rand has united these different lands under his banner, he didn't actually care about any of them save as a tool. They're all in shambles, falling apart and distrusting one another.  That point was driven home to him hard at the end to The Gathering Storm when he visited the Seanchan cities... the people there were happy (well, except the channelers).making him feel again by really ticking the crap out of him.

except that like most Totalitarian societies it appears great only on the surface. seanchan believe that there society is the correct way and the best way and that justifies anything they do except that its a lie that every1 realizes but wont admit. why is it a lie? AoL.

[Jillain Sanche]

Egwene and Rand have some serious catching up to do and that's no lie. In many ways, they are not the girl and boy they each used to know, even if they still feel supportive of each other. And it seems that either or both of them should have long ago sought out a way to reopen lines of communication so as to not become so out of touch.

 

She may well be mad about the cross bonding, and she will have to get over it.

 

Or maybe Bela will show up and referee?

 

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I see it being the start of a new story arch in the series. Egwene in her arrogant and self-indulgent air will try to berate and rail at Rand. Rand will then shock her by harshly rebuffing/rebuking her and shattering all contact with the White Tower. Elayne with then bring the two back together in time for the Last Battle.

[Thor]

Egwene and Rand have some serious catching up to do and that's no lie. In many ways, they are not the girl and boy they each used to know, even if they still feel supportive of each other. And it seems that either or both of them should have long ago sought out a way to reopen lines of communication so as to not become so out of touch.

 

She may well be mad about the cross bonding, and she will have to get over it.

 

Or maybe Bela will show up and referee?

 

 

what right does she have to be mad about the cross bonding? none. and this is exactly why people hate her, she thinks she has right over things she does not.

[sonieb33]

I don't think Egwene is going to be harsh with him , she should see that in the circumstance he did far better that anyone would .

Know that she understand the burden of a leader she should get over the all mighty aes sedai crap and get ready for kicking some wild Dark spawn ass's

 

I'm thinking you're right. A good example would be her anger at those who rescued her at the turning point in her war with Elaida (or so she thought). She went pretty lightly on them compared to most of the other people in the series when they get mad. Maybe in the last book they'll finally discover anger management?

[StringWinder]

I really can't believe so many people think that when they meet Egwene is going to be all arrogant and bully Rand and he's going to have to put her in her place...

 

Well, part of it I can see.  They are both very arrogant.

 

But from the Foretelling it seems that Eg will put Rand in his place.  Which will probably be alright.  Just because he is "reintegrated" does not mean all his personality flaws are going to just disappear.  Just the worst of them, maybe.

 

Anyhow, for twelve books many problems have arised from people not communicating, not bending, thinking they are the only one's who know how to do what's right.  But the series is almost over, and from a story telling standpoint, I don't see that we have time to continue down tht road.  To me that would be mahorly disappointing, anyway.  And Rand does need to be put in his place, alittle.  Egwene has plenty of reasons to be confidant she has done a lot of good for the world and has done it with cleverness, and backbone.  Strength.  Rand has just been brutal and scary.

[Duskfire]

I really can't believe so many people think that when they meet Egwene is going to be all arrogant and bully Rand and he's going to have to put her in her place...

 

Well, part of it I can see.  They are both very arrogant.

 

But from the Foretelling it seems that Eg will put Rand in his place.  Which will probably be alright.  Just because he is "reintegrated" does not mean all his personality flaws are going to just disappear.  Just the worst of them, maybe.

 

Anyhow, for twelve books many problems have arised from people not communicating, not bending, thinking they are the only one's who know how to do what's right.  But the series is almost over, and from a story telling standpoint, I don't see that we have time to continue down tht road.  To me that would be mahorly disappointing, anyway.  And Rand does need to be put in his place, alittle.  Egwene has plenty of reasons to be confidant she has done a lot of good for the world and has done it with cleverness, and backbone.  Strength.  Rand has just been brutal and scary.

 

Yeah, working out how to cleanse Saidin wasn't clever at all.  :P

 

I agree with you that Rand to some extent needs to be put into his place, although one could argue almost killing his girlfriend as well as his father potentially did that. However, Egwene does not deserve to be the one to do it. Her entire problem with Rand is based as you said, on miscommunication and rumours. Her herself is just as bad as Rand is, especially with her assumptions. Out of any of the characters, its Perrin that deserves to tell everyone to just shut up and get along. Or maybe Mat. Except no one will listen to Mat, so it should be Perrin.

[StringWinder]

I didn't mean to say Rand hasn't been clever, he has been.  But so has Ishi.  Doesn't change the fact that If the Rand from the last few books was my boss I not be a happy worker bee.

 

Anyhow, it's not about someone deserving to put rand in his place.  You say that like it's some kind of reward. ???  It's not about "shut up and get along"  Perrin doesn't have enough of a world wide scope to his view.  One thing about Eg is she's been raised to a position where every little action she makes will possibly have huge reverbrations on the entire world.  Rand is in the same position, and they are basically the one's who could possible understand each other the best.  Any how, I think due to that she is the only character who can be truly sympathetic to his position.  And by symathetic I don't mean, feeling bad for him, I mean in terms of understanding.

[Durinax]

I dont think that Egwene will be sympathetic at all.

 

Plus only recently has she gotten into a position where her every little decision could change teh world. Every decision before that could be completely reversed if she failed.

 

Plus she has to be one of the least sympathetic and most severe of the main characters. But I mostly base this on early in the books when she knows Rand can channel before mat and perrin and she starts to act weird around him and shuns him a bit

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Rand seems to be becoming fairly clever and quite the strategist as the books go on. We know that Ishamael used to be a master of Randland chess. Is this melding or mixing of Rand/Moridin personalities a reason why buffoon sheepherder Rand is all of a sudden getting quite a lot of cunning, shrewd, manipulative and ingenious ideas?

[Ishmayl]

The problem with the whole "Egwene putting Rand in his place" theory is that, if it were to happen, it would just be a stance of hypocrisy.  She has forced oaths, she has compared her jailtime in the tower to the beatings and kidnapping of Rand in the box ("Now I know what Rand must have felt like."  Phaw!  She's dreaming!), she makes obnoxious statements at the end of TGS like "Men are trouble, and need to be dealt with" (I forget the exact quote, but look at one of her last conversations with Sylviana), and she was raised to her position all because of a lie that Siuan started to get revenge on Elaida.  Egwene just grosses me out anymore, and it pisses me to no end that she's possibly going to have some sort of bullshit "righteous anger" against Rand and how he's dealt with things.

 

Christ, I have to stop reading threads about Egwene...

[Lambada]

The problem with the whole "Egwene putting Rand in his place" theory is that, if it were to happen, it would just be a stance of hypocrisy.  She has forced oaths, she has compared her jailtime in the tower to the beatings and kidnapping of Rand in the box ("Now I know what Rand must have felt like."  Phaw!  She's dreaming!), she makes obnoxious statements at the end of TGS like "Men are trouble, and need to be dealt with" (I forget the exact quote, but look at one of her last conversations with Sylviana), and she was raised to her position all because of a lie that Siuan started to get revenge on Elaida.  Egwene just grosses me out anymore, and it pisses me to no end that she's possibly going to have some sort of bullshit "righteous anger" against Rand and how he's dealt with things.

 

Christ, I have to stop reading threads about Egwene...

Oh dear lord...

"Righteous anger"

Now I keep imagining Egwene with The Sword of Truth in her hands.

*shudder*

 

On a related note: you might like to check my thread on Egwenes dirty little secrets. Some of the points you made were refuted by others in it.

[yoniy0]

Lambada, I shall try to do that here:

She has forced oaths

She has, you're right. Nevertheless, having AS swear to the Amyrlin Seat is hardly the same as having them swear to a man, even if he is the Dragon Reborn.

 

she has compared her jailtime in the tower to the beatings and kidnapping of Rand in the box ("Now I know what Rand must have felt like."  Phaw!  She's dreaming!)

What she actually did is empathize with him, thinking that now they had an experience in common. There's no denying that Rand had a harder time at it, and if you'll look back you'll see that Egwene acknowledges as much. You can't deny being kept in a cell small enough that you can't stand or stretch in it and being taken out only to be beaten is akin to what happened to Rand, even if it was less severe.

 

she makes obnoxious statements at the end of TGS like "Men are trouble, and need to be dealt with" (I forget the exact quote, but look at one of her last conversations with Sylviana)

Again, she actually thought to herself that sisters will have to grow past such thoughts eventually, she merely added that now was not the time for that, given that such feelings aren't exactly unfounded (and she's right. The Ashaman that were Bonded have chosen to become Warders. Rand hasn't, but nobody was making excuses for Alanna).

 

she was raised to her position all because of a lie that Siuan started to get revenge on Elaida.

No she was not. The lie did help keeping the Salidar council from going back and accepting Elaida as Amyrlin, but it was by no means the basis for Egwene's victory. She did that all on her own (she did get help, of course, but surely that's to her credit. If only Rand was willing to accept help the way Egwene is...)

[DemandredFO]

yoniy0, what the AS did was Ta'veren, Taim's threat and compulsion by verin as far as oaths sworn to Rand, she would know Rand didn't compel anyone.  As for what Taim did, Kneel and swear or you will be knelt, Egwene did the same thing, she just was more subtle.

As I've said in other threads, she could've escaped at any time.  Yes, she was kidnapped but she chose not to be rescued, Rand had no choice.  So her confinement was nothing like Rand's.

She's going to have to get over it soon because men and women will need to cooperate for TG.

I just want Mat to deflate her head because he did her a curtesy in LOC and got sh*t in return.

[Skeeve the Great]

yoniy0, what the AS did was Ta'veren, Taim's threat and compulsion by verin as far as oaths sworn to Rand, she would know Rand didn't compel anyone.  As for what Taim did, Kneel and swear or you will be knelt, Egwene did the same thing, she just was more subtle.

As I've said in other threads, she could've escaped at any time.  Yes, she was kidnapped but she chose not to be rescued, Rand had no choice.  So her confinement was nothing like Rand's.

She's going to have to get over it soon because men and women will need to cooperate for TG.

I just want Mat to deflate her head because he did her a curtesy in LOC and got sh*t in return.

 

My feelings exactly.

 

I'm amazed how people blame Rand for swearing to him. Ta'veren works in probabilities, meaning Aes Sedai already considered for themselves to swear and only ta'veren was able to twist the chances of this to happen.

 

As for the beating and the box - spot on, DemandredFO. It's not even close to Egwene's situation.

Granted, I really like how she handled all this capture and "fight within" situation. But it's not compared to what Rand endured.

 

Also, somehow people forget that Rand DIDN'T HAVE ANY FREAKING CHOICE to be the Dragon Reborn, to be put in the box, to eventually die because he was told to. NO CHOICE. Think about it. And compare to Egwene.

[yoniy0]

yoniy0, what the AS did was Ta'veren, Taim's threat and compulsion by verin as far as oaths sworn to Rand, she would know Rand didn't compel anyone.  As for what Taim did, Kneel and swear or you will be knelt, Egwene did the same thing, she just was more subtle.

I did not say that Rand Compelled anyone. Having said that, he certainly did compel them. Taim haven't threaten to force them to undergo penance, he simply said they will swear willingly or be forced to. That's not the same thing as what Egwene did. Neither is Rand telling the others the only way to escape a life as da'tsang is to swear the way Kirona and the others have. Note that I'm not faulting Rand for what Verin did, since he had no hand in that. And as I mentioned already, even had Egwene and Rand's actions been identical, it still is not the same for AS to swear to the Amyrlin or to a man.

 

As I've said in other threads, she could've escaped at any time.  Yes, she was kidnapped but she chose not to be rescued, Rand had no choice.  So her confinement was nothing like Rand's.

Again, you're misappropriating my argument. Her forced exile in the Tower wasn't the same as his kidnap because she chose to remain, but her experience in being locked in that cell was very similar to what Rand has undergone after he killed those Warders. That's all I've said, and I admitted to the differences in severity. So has Egwene, so it isn't fair to treat her comment as Ishmayl has.

 

She's going to have to get over it soon because men and women will need to cooperate for TG.

And again, Egwene has said the very same thing. Nobody's arguing with you, so why do you guys keep bringing that up?

 

Skeeve, I'm just reading your remarks now. Suffice it to say that I disagree (for reasons detailed above).

[gambril]

Lol yoniy you state that swearing to the Amyrilin isn't the same thing as swearing to the Dragon Reborn but cutely fail to mention (or maybe understand?) that what Egwene and the Aes Sedai are disgusted by, they want and insist on doing so themselves; as in bonding Ash'aman for the sole purpose of controlling them.  Granted this desire is mainly driven by the taint on the male of the source and fear of it.  But the difference is, Rand and the Ash'aman want nothing to do with the Aes Sedai and just wish they'd stay out of his business and interfering in his business, while the Aes Sedai want to put their hands into everything and everyones business.  Aes Sedai as an organiztion so far in the series has been a complete joke.  So for Egwene to berate Rand and feel her anger, storywise would be a complete joke and turn the story into a joke, since we as the readers know there is no basis for the Aes Sedai walk on water arrogance.  In some ways the Forsaken are correct when they think of Aes Sedai as children and primitives.

 

This is why, in Jordans brilliance via Elaida's foretelling foreshadowed this meeting and intentionally misled us to believe that Rand would cowtow to Egwene, but in reality what it really means is that Rand will come to understand Egwene and vice-versa.  Foreshadowing of this was given in TGS when Egwene had her realization with Siuan in TAR meeting.  The point is, Rand intentionally distances himself from everyone else due to false assumptions and Egwene, underneath it all wants to guide/work with him (this is still TBD)and in understanding her anger will come to realize that she is right and they need to work together.

[yoniy0]

gambril, could you explain to me what it is you think I didn't understand? I didn't quite get what you were saying.

For what it's worth, I did try to explain why I believe Egwene is within her rights to be crossed with Rand. Maybe I'm not doing a great job at it as well.

 

EDIT: Let me add this. What disgusts Egwene and other AS is that someone might be Bonded against their wishes. To say that the AS want to do the same thing themselves is simply wrong.

[Skeeve the Great]

EDIT: Let me add this. What disgusts Egwene and other AS is that someone might be Bonded against their wishes. To say that the AS want to do the same thing themselves is simply wrong.

 

Yet, most of them (secretly or openly) don't seem to have a problem bonding the Dragon Reborn against his wishes. Alanna did that and openly defends it. IIRC, Cadsuane secretly considered it before discovering that bonding the Dragon Reborn doesn't control him. The only truly disgusted are our new Aes Sedai girls. The old ones seem OK with it (I may be wrong, but I think it was mentioned that Bonding against wishes started to be frowned upon among Aes Sedai not that long ago, hundred of years or so, which means majority of Aes Sedai is still remember when it was OK).

 

As a counter point to your argument: What disgusts me the most is the notion among Aes Sedai they they MUST control the Dragon Reborn and that they have a right to do so.

[DemandredFO]

yoniy0, I haven't to LOC and up in a little while but what I mean by subtle is Taim made an open threat, to paraphrase, kneel and swear or you will be made to.  While Egwene didn't threaten force she to paraphrase again, swear to me and I will keep your secrets, if not, things will not go well.  For sheriam and the council minus Myrelle it would have been unpleasant for sometime.  If Egwene divulged what Myrelle and the yellow(I forget her name) did, they could looking forward to stilling I'd imagine, maybe just prison, not positive.  So you could argue that what Egwene did in Myrelle and the yellow's case was worse than Rand taking advantage of Taim's threat.

At some minimal level, for the sake of some agreement, I will admit that Egwene and Rand were both prisoners but the simalarities END there.  Rand WAS locked in a box where he was doubled up.

[Chanur]

I personally think Rand knowing the Amyrlin's anger refers to the bonding of Aes Sedai. Rand does know her anger because he was bonded against his will. You have to remember the Aes Sedai think they are better than everyone else, so them being bonded is a special kind of injustice in their minds.

 

On another note I do not think the tower can be stronger than ever , or really ever be whole until they start letting men back in. As for Cadsuane as an adviser, I think it is a terrible idea. I think Moiraine and Nynaeve are really the only Aes Sedai Rand can trust. Tam is 100% right when he says Cadsuane is nothing but a bully, she is also extremely conceited and I think it gets in the way of her advice.

[Tollieman]

Maybe 'knowing the Amyrlin's anger' is a way of saying that all Amyrlins have a specific anger they suffer from, and that Rand (becoming the Amyrlin) will 'know it'.

 

;D I can dream can't I!!!

[yoniy0]

Alanna did that and openly defends it. IIRC, Cadsuane secretly considered it before discovering that bonding the Dragon Reborn doesn't control him.

You are incorrect. Every AS we've seen discover this has shown an initial reaction of disgust. Cadsuane only considered making Alanna give her the Bond, which isn't the same (and, she only said that she considered it, not that she'd actually do it. She was very clear on not wanting to risk someone's life by Bonding them in her old age). Yes, they then consider the implications and possible gains in it, but that doesn't mean they condone the act itself. If someone was to assassinate the leader of a theoretical enemy country I might be disgusted by that, but you can bet that I'll also think of what that means for me. It's only human.

 

The old ones seem OK with it (I may be wrong, but I think it was mentioned that Bonding against wishes started to be frowned upon among Aes Sedai not that long ago, hundred of years or so, which means majority of Aes Sedai is still remember when it was OK).

It was done until hundreds of years ago. Certainly not in living memory.

 

As a counter point to your argument: What disgusts me the most is the notion among Aes Sedai they they MUST control the Dragon Reborn and that they have a right to do so.

Well, I don't like it either. Egwene speaks of containing him, and guiding his actions, which is similar, but not the same. As a side point, they are mostly MUCH more experienced that Rand is. It's not surprising that they would consider themselves better fitted to choose his path, although we of course know that they would be wrong to think that.

 

If Egwene divulged what Myrelle and the yellow(I forget her name) did, they could looking forward to stilling I'd imagine, maybe just prison, not positive.

Oh, no. It was mentioned that Alanna would face a severe penance should her actions become public, and what Myrelle did wasn't as bad. So you see, it's not at all the same thing, what Egwene and Rand did.

 

At some minimal level, for the sake of some agreement, I will admit that Egwene and Rand were both prisoners but the simalarities END there.  Rand WAS locked in a box where he was doubled up.

Come off it, would you? She wasn't doubled over, but she couldn't stand or stretch her arms. It's not the same thing, but to say that it's not similar? I think to deny it is pushing incredulity. Don't forget, Egwene was also only taken out to be beaten. Of course, she had tel'aran'rhiod, which Rand hadn't. Hence her admission that Rand suffered a lot more that she had. And indeed, it drove him mad, while she recuperated rather quickly.

[DemandredFO]

yoniy0, we'll agree to disagree or at least I will.