Was Lews Therin the first Dragon?

[Agitel]

Massive disasters "reset" the Ages. There are many that happen throughout.

 

Even within the Third Age progress had to restart three times. Once after the Breaking, once after the Trolloc Wars, and once after Artur Hawkwing.

 

They all seem to get up to about renaissance tech level before crashing.

[ThorkinBarrimore]

I think the jist of the situation is that even though

we've witnessed the last 3,000 yrs (Age of Legends, the Breaking,

Trolloc Wars, etc.) and had hints at other ages through various

gleeman tales (Queen Elsbet, Merk and Mos fighting each other

with "spears of fire," etc.) but they are possibly just part of

the much larger spokes in the Wheel of Time. 3,000 or so years

would end and then the wheel would shift and everything would

be completely different. Natural laws would change slightly like

in the world inside the Tower of Ghenjei for instance.

[mb]

Jesus might be another candidate of who the soul was.  (Him and Rand both saviors)

 

 

The books seem to imply that the Dragon's soul was born multiple times each Age.

The only thing wrong is that Jesus's wasn't "born" multiple times.

Jesus not born multiple times; true according to Christian belief.

Though same belief tells that rebirth does not happen for anybody.

 

[Dagon Thyne]

Has this guy been half asleep when reading the books?  Even from EOTW it is made clear that Rand is one of hundreds, thousands, maybe even millions of chosen ones that areborn of the pattern to battle the dark one.  and the Dragon and Dragon reborn are just the titles of him and Lews Therin.  No one knows what the others are called.

[MaidenOfTheSpear]

 

Jesus not born multiple times; true according to Christian belief.

Though same belief tells that rebirth does not happen for anybody.

 

 

uhm... i am sorry, i do not think i understand exactly what your saying could you maybe rephrase it?

[Agitel]

I've wondered about the Jesus parallels. Even if Jordan wanted to go there, I don't think it would help sales any to do it bluntly (quite the opposite).

 

But Rand has gone off into the desert, has been marked on both hands, has been pierced in the side by a spear, the Crown of Swords bears similarities to the crown of thorns, as well.

 

Not to mention that, given the things that WoT has drawn on the Judeo-Christian and Islam influences(among many other things, of course), it strikes me that this Last Battle (and the War of Power) are both about the end-time events described in many of these traditions, including Christianity, and to me the cyclical nature also suggests that this is also what is referenced as the War in Heaven or the wars between gods in other mythological traditions.

 

Granted, Jesus in the WoT-verse wouldn't have to have been a Hero and Rand wouldn't have to be his soul reborn, but the parallels are there.

[mb]

Jesus not born multiple times; true according to Christian belief.

Though same belief tells that rebirth does not happen for anybody.

uhm... i am sorry, i do not think i understand exactly what your saying could you maybe rephrase it?

The latter statement I made?

Here is an attempt::  Same teaching/teachings tell that no one is born multiple times.

 

The former statement?  Not sure how to rephrase that.

 

[farthammer]

jesus is a WHITECLOAK

[Agitel]

I think mb's point is that applying Christian 'truth' to the WoT-verse doesn't work, even when it does draw from the religion. In the WoT-verse, none of our modern day religions are 100% the truth, so, within the WoT-verse, Jesus would be born multiple times. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a Hero of the Horn or anything.

[TheBeerPatriot]

I thought Smaug was the first Dragon ;)

[Mr Ares]

I thought Smaug was the first Dragon ;)

Glaurung is the one termed father of dragons.

[mb]

I think mb's point is that applying Christian 'truth' to the WoT-verse doesn't work, even when it does draw from the religion. In the WoT-verse, none of our modern day religions are 100% the truth, so, within the WoT-verse, Jesus would be born multiple times. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a Hero of the Horn or anything.

Those things were what I was trying to tell.  Good paraphrasing.

 

[Dagon Thyne]

As far as I ca tell, he was the only Dragon.  There were other Chosen Ones before him and Rand, but the Dragon was his nickname, not the title of the Chosen One.  There were actually hundreds if not Thousands or Millions of Chosen Ones who were created by the Pattern to stop the Dark One from being freed before the Age of Legends. 

[Agitel]

As far as I ca tell, he was the only Dragon.  There were other Chosen Ones before him and Rand, but the Dragon was his nickname, not the title of the Chosen One.  There were actually hundreds if not Thousands or Millions of Chosen Ones who were created by the Pattern to stop the Dark One from being freed before the Age of Legends. 

 

The Champion of the Light is always the same soul.

[MaidenOfTheSpear]

Got it! ok, thanks for explaining it!

[Cirin]

I think mb's point is that applying Christian 'truth' to the WoT-verse doesn't work, even when it does draw from the religion. In the WoT-verse, none of our modern day religions are 100% the truth, so, within the WoT-verse, Jesus would be born multiple times. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a Hero of the Horn or anything.

Those things were what I was trying to tell.  Good paraphrasing.

 

 

I think there are definitely parallels made between Rand and Christ within the story, the same as there are parallels between Rand and King Arthur, Tyr, etc.  It's ultimately a fictional world, though, so you can't expect an exact interpretation of religion of any kind to appear.  Some Nestorian traditions do view Christ as having "broken the cycle of death and rebirth," though, so it's possible that a Christ-like figure could appear in a story like this... although I think more likely that the Wheel will keep on turning in after Tarmon Gaidon, just as it has this past age.

[Kaznen]

I think mb's point is that applying Christian 'truth' to the WoT-verse doesn't work, even when it does draw from the religion. In the WoT-verse, none of our modern day religions are 100% the truth, so, within the WoT-verse, Jesus would be born multiple times. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a Hero of the Horn or anything.

Those things were what I was trying to tell.  Good paraphrasing.

 

 

I think there are definitely parallels made between Rand and Christ within the story, the same as there are parallels between Rand and King Arthur, Tyr, etc.  It's ultimately a fictional world, though, so you can't expect an exact interpretation of religion of any kind to appear.  Some Nestorian traditions do view Christ as having "broken the cycle of death and rebirth," though, so it's possible that a Christ-like figure could appear in a story like this... although I think more likely that the Wheel will keep on turning in after Tarmon Gaidon, just as it has this past age.

I always thought Christ was a previous incarnation of "The Dragon."  People often talk about the conversation between Hawkwing and Rand in tGH about them sometimes being on opposite sides.  I thought this could be that during Jesus/Rand Hawkwing would have been Caesar or Pilate. (and Astronomers have found evidence that Christ died during Augustus Caesar's reign, neat, huh?) 

[MaidenOfTheSpear]

just wondering... how can Astronomers say that Jesus was born in that time?

I think mb's point is that applying Christian 'truth' to the WoT-verse doesn't work, even when it does draw from the religion. In the WoT-verse, none of our modern day religions are 100% the truth, so, within the WoT-verse, Jesus would be born multiple times. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a Hero of the Horn or anything.

Those things were what I was trying to tell.  Good paraphrasing.

 

 

I think there are definitely parallels made between Rand and Christ within the story, the same as there are parallels between Rand and King Arthur, Tyr, etc.  It's ultimately a fictional world, though, so you can't expect an exact interpretation of religion of any kind to appear.  Some Nestorian traditions do view Christ as having "broken the cycle of death and rebirth," though, so it's possible that a Christ-like figure could appear in a story like this... although I think more likely that the Wheel will keep on turning in after Tarmon Gaidon, just as it has this past age.

I always thought Christ was a previous incarnation of "The Dragon."  People often talk about the conversation between Hawkwing and Rand in tGH about them sometimes being on opposite sides.  I thought this could be that during Jesus/Rand Hawkwing would have been Caesar or Pilate. (and Astronomers have found evidence that Christ died during Augustus Caesar's reign, neat, huh?) 

[Dagon Thyne]

As far as I ca tell, he was the only Dragon.  There were other Chosen Ones before him and Rand, but the Dragon was his nickname, not the title of the Chosen One.  There were actually hundreds if not Thousands or Millions of Chosen Ones who were created by the Pattern to stop the Dark One from being freed before the Age of Legends. 

 

The Champion of the Light is always the same soul.

 

But only one was called the Dragon i believe.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Ba'alzamon claims that in some lifetimes he was the Champion of the Light and Rand was his counterpart. This sort of implies that a select few souls are always predestined to face eachother. Not that there is one chosen soul that is always the Champion?

[Fains nose]

This really should be something Brandon Sanderson should just be able to tell us. Someone email him the thread title.

[Vermillion]

Demandred was almost the Dragon. It was the title of the leader of the forces of light in the war of power. He turned from what I understand because LTT got the title and he didnt.

 

Dragon became legend due to fear from the breaking and prophecy of his return and a new "breaking"(more like chaos and restructuring).  The male half of the AS symbol which was removed from the current female AS group became the dragon fang.  As anyone who would follow a crazy male channler was a friend of the dark.

 

If say Demmy was the Dragon and LTT lead the breaking he would just be LTT reborn.  If the title had been the Lion he would be the Lion reborn in prophecy.

 

We dont know if the Dragon/Reborn is an AoL and Age of Prophecy only title or just this cycles name for the champion of light.  We do know each age cycle is different but has the same themes which leads me to think the title is different.  I think the Fisher King is a previous title from the pervious age of legend or DO influenced age.  We don't even know how many ages are influenced by the DO.

 

And as far as the Jesus thing there are other older dead religions with simular theme of savior.

[Skeeve the Great]

I think the Champion of the Light and the Dragon is always one and the same, and IIRC it was confirmed by RJ in numerous interviews.

 

It stated several times in the book that Heroes must fight the Shadow, that' why they were bound to the Wheel. And since the Dragon is one of the Heroes I don't see the Dragon ever turned to the Shadow. Again, it was confirmed in the book several times that the Dragon was never turned to the Shadow. Most recently in tGS, Golden Veins, where Rand has seen his all previous lives and seen that he always fought.

 

As for the title - I beleive it's permanent title. It's always "The Dragon". We've seen Arthur adressing Rand by the his name from the last Age - Lews, but he also stated that Heroes "follow the Banner. And the Dragon". It's very general statement meant to show us the state of the affairs for the Heroes. And I think it proves that the Dragon is the title of the Champion of the Light.

[Sid]

THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED.  THE WEAK FALL AWAY.  WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH.  ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS.  RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE.  HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE.  EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME.  For and instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and - could it be frustration?  An instant only.  DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON.  WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?

LOC Prologue, 'The First Message'

 

If the DO considers his enemy, the Dragon, to be 'ancient', then I'd imagine that's like saying that he's always been called the Dragon.

[Vermillion]

 

THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED.  THE WEAK FALL AWAY.  WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH.  ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS.  RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE.  HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE.  EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME.  For and instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and - could it be frustration?  An instant only.  DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON.  WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?

LOC Prologue, 'The First Message'

 

If the DO considers his enemy, the Dragon, to be 'ancient', then I'd imagine that's like saying that he's always been called the Dragon.

 

Maybe, maybe not.  The DO interaction is limit and his understanding and knowledge seems alien with the outside.  He seems to have a duty with death and the recycling souls into the pattern.  Probably why heroes of the horn stay in TAR.  He knows the prophecies and such and knows the dragon is the CoL.  Its still not proof.  It seems far fetched that the Dragon would be used every AoL unless it came from one of their legends.