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Dagon Thyne

I hate Aes Sedai!

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I, personally, find the Aes Sedai to be conceited.  They beleive they have the right to decide how the world should be ran.  Alot of them even think that rulers have no right to their thrones unless the White Tower thinks they should.  They are especially stuck up when it comes to the one power.  They think that they own the OP and no one except those that they choose, have the right to even touch it.  If most Aes Sedai had their way, using the OP without, the white towers consent, would be punishable by death.

 

I find this very foolish, since I'm pretty sure the Aiel Wise Ones had been using the OP before the White Tower was even formed. 

Most Red Aes Sedai would have gentled Rand before the Last Battle just to prove that the Dragon Reborn wasn't beyond their power.  The Aes Sedai actually beleives that without the White Tower, the world would be dextroyed without them to police the would and manipulate everyone like puppets.

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Aiel wise ones formed long after the White Tower, and really are just a collection of wilders... they don't have the same scholastic knowledge of the OP.  The Aiel were Tuatha'an who betrayed their oaths in the ancient war against the DO.  The WT had already stood for hundreds of years, The Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends were higher beings compared to the Aes Sedai now, and even then the current WT has more strength in the OP than the Wise Ones.

 

I do agree though in some regards.. Aes Sedai are conceited and arrogant unable to see that their world has grown bigger very quickly and are unable to adapt.  No one "heels" the Dragon Reborn, he breaks all pacts and recreates the world anew.  Just like the Seanchan they can't see how small their role really is.

 

Otherwise I think you make the Aes Sedai out to be a little to tyrannical, mostly they are just misguided, not power-hungery tyrants like you make em out to be.

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I have to agree to a point. AS are the embodiment of everything irritating about beaurocracy. Why do we do things this way? Because we always have. No question. No deviation. Like going to a government office. And they're so damned catty. I get enough of that at work...

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I think the White Tower was meant to evoke the idea of the ivory tower. Most Aes Sedai stay locked up in it and rarely come out into the world anyway.

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They're quite a bit conceited and arrogant, yes. But much of what they do, they do for good reasons, don't they? Forbidding anyone but themselves from teaching the One Power probably saves lots of lives. We know that learning to channel can be dangerous, and it's not like they deny teaching it to those who wish to learn. Hunting down people who abuse it seems fair enough - who else would prevent a ruler from using the One Power to force his/her subjects into obedience? And who else would be capable of handling men who can channel?

 

They're too high and mighty, believing they're omniscient, basically. But as a whole, they all work for readying the world for Tarmon Gai'don, don't they? The organization definitely has some serious flaws, but I don't think they do more harm than good.

 

That said, I wouldn't want to be entangled in their politics and schemes and stuff. That's just nasty.

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'have right to decide how world should be ran'; that seems to be an over-generalization.  Some portion of Aes Sedia seem to seek to serve instead of believe that.

Not all Aes Sedia force saidar channelers to come to White Tower; most seem to persuade instead of force.

They seem to be starting to accept saidin channelers.

 

Though other channelers' use of the One Power seems not for their own gain.

 

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Sure Aes Sedai have a level of self-importance that is borderline unhealthy, but really, given their task (preparing the world for TG), a little bit of ego is probably necessary.

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Sure Aes Sedai have a level of self-importance that is borderline unhealthy, but really, given their task (preparing the world for TG), a little bit of ego is probably necessary.

It is not the Aes Sedai's task to p[repare the world for the last battle.  That is the sole reason, that and killing the DO that the dragon reborn was born.  The Aes Sedai just think that only they can even fight the shadow.  Thats why they have it in their heads that they must leash Rand and use him as a weapon.

 

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Sure Aes Sedai have a level of self-importance that is borderline unhealthy, but really, given their task (preparing the world for TG), a little bit of ego is probably necessary.

It is not the Aes Sedai's task to p[repare the world for the last battle.  That is the sole reason, that and killing the DO that the dragon reborn was born.  The Aes Sedai just think that only they can even fight the shadow.  Thats why they have it in their heads that they must leash Rand and use him as a weapon.

 

 

They still try to prepare the world, don't they? The Reds get rid of men who can channel (probably something most people appreciate), the Yellow Heal people (probably appreciated), the Gray attempt to unite the nations. It's said explicitly in the books that they attempted to keep the alliances from the Aiel war active even when the war was over.

 

If they weren't so arrogant they'd probably be a whole lot more successful. But it doesn't change the fact that they're intentions are good.

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Theoretically, the Children's intentions are also good.

 

Those Aes Sedai characters that are cast as even mostly good have to wade through endless chaff to complete their 'good' acts.  What does that say about the breed?

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Theoretically, the Children's intentions are also good.

 

Those Aes Sedai characters that are cast as even mostly good have to wade through endless chaff to complete their 'good' acts.  What does that say about the breed?

 

Agreed.  As are the Seanchan.

 

Gotta remember to look at it from their perspective.  The Children are woefully misguided, but clearly they are not all darkfriends to the last man.  Most of them have just bought into the demagogery of their own organization.  By the end, even Pedron Niall himself was ready to admit that the true Dragon had been reborn, and as I recall, he even mused that SOME form of temporary truce with the WT might be necessary.

 

As for the Seanchan, same thing applies.  Their core philosphy tells them that ALL channelers are dangerous, and technically, they are correct.  All channelers CAN be dangerous, but they ignore the fact that channelers are people and deserve to be free until they demonstrate that they can't be trusted with their own power.

 

The people at the top of any organization sets the culture.  It's like a CEO at any major company.  If the CEO attempts to earn the respect and admiration of their employees, the culture of that company is based on earned respect.  If the CEO uses fear and intimidation exclusively, then that will take over the culture of the company.

 

Just look at what happened to Aridhol when Mordeth arrived.

 

Awesome thread.

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I agree that many major organizations rightfully consider their intentions to be good, since what "good" is depends on your perspective. When I say "good" I mean as in fair and trying to help people and make the world better, without oppressing any specific group of people, and without harming people. The Seanchan don't fit (oppressing channelers) and the same with Whitecloaks. The Aes Sedai, on the other hand, put little or no value at a person's origin and everyone gets an equal chance, and they do not seek to cause anyone harm. There are of course exceptions, but as a group the Aes Sedai strive to help people, in more or less direct ways.

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Sure Aes Sedai have a level of self-importance that is borderline unhealthy, but really, given their task (preparing the world for TG), a little bit of ego is probably necessary.

It is not the Aes Sedai's task to p[repare the world for the last battle.  That is the sole reason, that and killing the DO that the dragon reborn was born.  The Aes Sedai just think that only they can even fight the shadow.  Thats why they have it in their heads that they must leash Rand and use him as a weapon.

 

 

They still try to prepare the world, don't they? The Reds get rid of men who can channel (probably something most people appreciate), the Yellow Heal people (probably appreciated), the Gray attempt to unite the nations. It's said explicitly in the books that they attempted to keep the alliances from the Aiel war active even when the war was over.

 

If they weren't so arrogant they'd probably be a whole lot more successful. But it doesn't change the fact that they're intentions are good.

 

Really? Here's a quote from LoC prologue.

“With your mother . . . missing . . . if Rand al’Thor has you, and Caemlyn, he has Andor, and the Hall won’t let him have any more of Andor than they have to, or anywhere else if they can help it. He carries Tear and Cairhien in his pocket, and the Aiel as well, it seems. Add Andor, and Murandy and Altara—with us in it—fall if he sneezes. He is growing too powerful, too fast. He might decide he doesn’t need us. With Moiraine dead, there’s no one near him we can trust.”

Rather than help him gain all the power he can so it'll be easier to defeat DO in TG, they fear that he would do so without their aid and they would go so far as to actually hinder his progress to stop that.

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I, personally, find the Aes Sedai to be conceited.  They beleive they have the right to decide how the world should be ran.  Alot of them even think that rulers have no right to their thrones unless the White Tower thinks they should.  They are especially stuck up when it comes to the one power.  They think that they own the OP and no one except those that they choose, have the right to even touch it.  If most Aes Sedai had their way, using the OP without, the white towers consent, would be punishable by death.

 

I find this very foolish, since I'm pretty sure the Aiel Wise Ones had been using the OP before the White Tower was even formed. 

Most Red Aes Sedai would have gentled Rand before the Last Battle just to prove that the Dragon Reborn wasn't beyond their power.  The Aes Sedai actually beleives that without the White Tower, the world would be dextroyed without them to police the would and manipulate everyone like puppets.

I have to argue this point. (how's this for a first post and an introduction to the Boards!!)

 

Name an organization/political group/ruler outside of the Ogier that DOESN'T think in this manner?  Everybody other than Rand, Mat and Perrin and the flamin' Ogier want the whole WORLD to bend to the way THEY want, and the ones I named just want to be left alone.

 

Yes, the Aes Sedai want to bend the people to their will, because the way they do things is the RIGHT way, but

The White Cloaks want to bend the people to their will, because the way they do things is the RIGHT way, and

The Seanchan want to bend the people to their will, because the way they do things is the RIGHT way, and

The Aiel want to bend the people to their will, because the way they do things is the RIGHT way, and

The Sea Folk want to bend the people to their will, because the way they do things is the RIGHT way, and

The (insert King/Queen/Ruler here) want to bend the people to their will, because the way they do things is the RIGHT way, and

Even the Tua'than want to bend the people to their will, because the way they do things is the RIGHT way, but don't have the swords to enforce thier philosophy.

 

The groups in Rand-land are exactly the same as the groups here in Reality-land - self-motivating control freaks that want everyone to let go of their own cultures and morals and to follow their own value sets.

 

It's one of the reasons I like the books so well.  They're REAL!!

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Name an organization/political group/ruler outside of the Ogier that DOESN'T think in this manner?  Everybody other than Rand, Mat and Perrin and the flamin' Ogier want the whole WORLD to bend to the way THEY want, and the ones I named just want to be left alone.

 

Difference is, we probably read 10 times more about AS than any other organization you mentioned. So, it's only natural for me to hate AS 10 times more.  :P

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I think it is funny how the Aes Sedai almost perfectly reflect a lot of the attitudes and beliefs us Americans have, especially those dealing in politics or world market.

 

just saying.

 

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I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way...

 

Reminds me of a joke, with the punchline going,

 

The Bishop looked around and said,"You **edited** are my kinda people!"

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Most women in WoT are strong and willfull. They are also very often very disagreeable. I find them so and it feels that RJ wrote them so. All of them. Quick to anger and slow to forget. Just a whole bunch of "pain in the ass" really. I find myself skipping most parts of the story where the women dominate as I re-read it (over and over it seems). Nyneave is a stinker, Egwene too and Elayne... Perhaps only Birgitte is at least tolerable but then she is written in a more maly way.. ;)

 

I dislike Aes Sedai and most women in WoT.

List of Loathing:

1. Aes Sedai (inlcudes Nyneave and the rest)

2. Faile (Fail!)

3. Wise Ones

4. ...

 

The female Forsaken are more balanced. ;)

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Yes, the Aes Sedai want to bend the people to their will, because the way they do things is the RIGHT way,

 

 

Ummmmmmm almost nothing the Aes Sedai do is right.  They think that without the tower the world would fall.. guess what the white tower didnt exist in the Age of Legends, and it was 100000000 times better then the third age.  And no, I'm niot mistaken.  In the age of Legends, the Aes Sedai were led by a type of Channeling guild called the Hall of Servants, which was led by the "First Among Servants" aka The Dragon.  Half of the tower seem to believe that they should gentle the Dragon reborn and leave the world defenseless when the DO breaks free.

 

Also, they seem to think that keeping their little tower intact is more important then anything else. 

 

I'll admit that a lot of Aes Sedai are good people, but most, Like Elaida, care only for getting as much power and credit they can during the Last battle.     

 

Look at how they view the Ashaman.  Even after they realize that the taint was destroyed, they looked down on them and treat them like animals instead of people. 

 

I also hate how they beleive that their way of teaching is the only legitimant way of learning to channel. 

 

Guess what, the Aiel were around since before the breaking, though known by another name and hated war >>;, You can't tell me that since that time they didn't have channelers.  So, since they have had channelers before the the breaking and the white tower was not created til after, how is the white tower better at teaching the then them?  Hell, Aes Sedai are a step away from declairing that using the one power without their permission is punishable by death. 

 

 

I Find it funny, how the Aes Sedfai are proven wrong about the one power every 10 seconds.  "YOu can't heal severing", "You cant unravel a weave", There is no way to detect when the oposit gender channels".  Face it, Aes Sedai claim that anything they cant do is impossible and tells people they are not allowed to do it.  Hell, just one of the lost talents, like Traveling, makes the Ashaman twice as powerful as the white tower.

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Ummmmmmm almost nothing the Aes Sedai do is right.   They think that without the tower the world would fall.. guess what the white tower didnt exist in the Age of Legends, and it was 100000000 times better then the third age. 
There was also no war at all. If it weren't for the Aes Sedai, humanity wouldn't have survived the Breaking, if it weren't for hte WHite Tower humanity wouldn't hve survived the Trolloc Wars or the War of a Hundred Years.

 

And no, I'm niot mistaken.  In the age of Legends, the Aes Sedai were led by a type of Channeling guild called the Hall of Servants, which was led by the "First Among Servants" aka The Dragon.
Yes. What's your point? The Hall of Servants worked much of the same way as the White Tower. Lews Therin was the High Seat, basically the same thing as the Amyrlin.

 

Half of the tower seem to believe that they should gentle the Dragon reborn and leave the world defenseless when the DO breaks free.
Look at it this way. Every time a person declared themselves as the Dragon Reborn, they try to conquer the Westland and leave death, destruction and disorder in their waake. They are called False Dragons. When Rand declared himself, two other False Dragons were abroad: Logain and Taim. What else would be the Twoer's reaction but to gentle them all?

 

Once Rand fulfilled the prophecies and it was clear he was the true Dragon Reborn, everyone knew he must live to fight the Dark One. No one of the Light doubted that. It was just their methods that were on the somewhat foolish side.

 

Also, they seem to think that keeping their little tower intact is more important then anything else.
Seeing how the White Tower is the only institution that has had any sense of constancy and it has kept the Westlands together (look above).

 

I'll admit that a lot of Aes Sedai are good people, but most, Like Elaida, care only for getting as much power and credit they can during the Last battle.
That goes the same for everyone. People like that are in the nobles, asha'man, Seanchan, Whitecloaks, etc.

 

Look at how they view the Ashaman.  Even after they realize that the taint was destroyed, they looked down on them and treat them like animals instead of people.
Not that many people are aware of that fact and to those who hear it, it's the equivalent of a rattlesnake telling you that it's venom-free.

 

I also hate how they beleive that their way of teaching is the only legitimant way of learning to channel.
You're mistaken. It is a widely believed thought that you can't relearn a way to do something once you've done it another.

 

Guess what, the Aiel were around since before the breaking, though known by another name and hated war >>;, You can't tell me that since that time they didn't have channelers.  So, since they have had channelers before the the breaking and the white tower was not created til after, how is the white tower better at teaching the then them?   Hell, Aes Sedai are a step away from declairing that using the one power without their permission is punishable by death.
We don't know if the Aiel could channel in the Age of Legends. Also, the Aes Sedai are definitely better channelers than the Wise Women who only channel rarely. You can see that from tSR and tFoH. Your last sentence is illogical.

 

I Find it funny, how the Aes Sedfai are proven wrong about the one power every 10 seconds.   "YOu can't heal severing", "You cant unravel a weave", There is no way to detect when the oposit gender channels".   Face it, Aes Sedai claim that anything they cant do is impossible and tells people they are not allowed to do it.
Look at it this way, if someone told me 110 years ago that we'd be able to fly, you'd think it was impossible. If someone said there'd be vehicles that could transport you into outer space, you'd say it's impossible. Most things re thought to be impossible until innovation and invention happen.

 

Hell, just one of the lost talents, like Traveling, makes the Ashaman twice as powerful as the white tower.
Look at Jordan's comments about male and female strength in the power.

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the Aes sedai suck

 

they have utterly failed at just about everything they are suppose to have done or claim to stand for, which is bad, but what makes it soooo much worse is the way Aes sedai seem to refuse to acknowledge any of their failings or short comings, and as such are not willing to adapt and change instead opting to make the same mistakes again and again.

 

with TG coming they split the tower, partially because different parties want to approach the final battle in different ways, an almost reasonable reason since it's the end of the world, but mainly due to internal politics. elida wanted to destroy an ajah and Aes sedai that weren't black ajah supported that. that is failure.

 

Mat, Perrin and Rand are the 3 most powerful ta'veren in recorded history, each equivalent too or greater than Artur Hawkwing, and the amyrlin seat that tried to manipulate and control Hawkwing was stilled and executed for it, as well as turning all the western continent against the white tower. and the when Mat, Perrin and Rand are found morain and suian, 2 of the most reasonable and intelligent Aes sedai we ever see, try and manipulate and control them. thats dumb. that is a failure.

 

the black ajah exists when they use a rod that can make people keep an oath they swear. that is a failure.

 

the only 2 ajah that can be said to not have failed their "purpose" in a major way would be the white and red, but both of these ajah can be said to be failures in their own way, whites for simply taking no action, and reds for largely just being a haven for hate and self interest in the tower.

 

the yellow ajah is committed to healing, but will refuse to learn any healing methods that don't involve channelling, not only that but if the yellows were truly committed to healing surely they would travel and seek out the sick and injured as opposed to simply healing those that are healthy enough to be brought to the white tower. not learning to heal better, despite the runaways figuring it out is also a pretty massive fail.

 

the green ajah call themselves the battle ajah, but from what we know of the borderlands Aes sedai are not all that common there, more common than other places perhaps but not common, when Shienar was in danger of falling in eye of the world there where no Aes sedai there. this is a failure.

 

the brown ajah is about collecting and preserving knowledge, and by and large they do alright in this regard as far as we know, however they demonstrate no real understanding of the knowledge that they collect, and we know that the white tower has lost knowledge since the breaking of the world, Aes sedai could make ter'angreal at least up until the end of the trolloc wars. this is a failure.

 

the grey and blue ajah focus on the political aspects of the wider world and the nations are scattered and bickering and on the verge of war before the beginning of the series, and at no point do either ajah do anything to help fix that or even try, except for suian, who is stilled for it, and Moiraine by trying to help Rand. this is a failure.

 

so yeah.

 

Aes sedai suck.

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