Just started on WH and I've got issues!

[sonieb33]

Ok...I understand that none of this is real. People don't really "channel", etc...but when real and natural meets real and natural and the unnatural happens, I have a problem. I had a hunch in Path of Daggers that RJ didn't have a tight grasp on all things winter when he sent Egwene's horse out onto a frozen lake (begging for four broken legs even fitted with special shoes), but now Faile & co. is being dragged off across the tundra NAKED. This is where I have to draw the line. Anyone who's had a snowball fight without gloves knows how quickly digits begin to freeze.

If it was cold enough for snow in the first place, which is 32 degrees F, it would take about 30 minutes for them to become hypothermic...that's AFTER losing most of their toes, fingers, nose and ears to frostbite.

 

Ok, I'm also going to throw in the sister ceremony...can you say "CORNY"?

[Agitel]

I wouldn't call mid-Mediterranean latitude 'tundra', but that's just me. Faile and the others were actually wrapped up in Aiel clothing after awhile or whatever because they were falling to hypothermia.

[Impressive Bosom]

Ok, I'm also going to throw in the sister ceremony...can you say "CORNY"?

 

I found it touching and powerful... an intriguing aspect to Aiel culture that had been unguessed at, and something I very much wish I could go through with someone close to my heart.

[Nethran Thaimal]

Personally, I was born once and I don't remember it.  I'm fine with that.  More than fine.  I thought it was interesting and special for them, but I'm good with just calling someone my best friend. :)

 

Sorry for being off-topic-ish.

[mb]

Various parts of this series tell almost anybody can learn to ignore extreme temperatures.  Channelers/Warders (and Aiel) have been the main people that figgured out how.

That should explain the meeting on the ice.

 

Movement at times slows down the rate of freezing.  That probably is one factor of Faile & her companions not becoming frozen.

By the way, where did you get the 30 minutes?

 

[Talmanes]

Yeah in Faile's POV we she that she is losing consciousness and only reamins awake because of the smacks to her butt. Also yes they were wrapped up before the condition got too bad. Also it was not even close to tundra, I mean it was cold enough for snow, but you don't get frostbite or hypothermia for a while unless it is really cold.

[shinerfan]

Keep reading. WH has some really great moments; things actually happen in that one. Then gear yourself up for two books of nothing. I don't mean to be too harsh, I did buy tGS the day it was released.

[Nethran Thaimal]

One book of nothing.  Crossroads.  And then more something in Knife of Dreams.  Maybe, someday, they'll shorten Crossroads to a couple chapters' length and mae it an epilogue to WH.  I can't remember if it actually has an epilogue, but if not... That would work.

[acerbus80]

Also it was not even close to tundra, I mean it was cold enough for snow, but you don't get frostbite or hypothermia for a while unless it is really cold.

 

Spend some time outside naked when it's 32 degrees and let me know how long it takes before you begin shivering uncontrollably and begin experiencing effects of hypothermia.  Try walking around in the snow for about 5 minutes with no shoes on also, and let me know what kind condition your feet are in afterwords.

 

Sonieb isn't the only one that has issues with this particular part of the book.  I recently reread WH, and I had forgotten how unbelievably extreme the conditions were in that section.  It's to the point that that it's beyond ridiculous.

 

But in all fairness, I believe that this part of the book was intended to simply express how hard set the Aiel are in their ways and traditions, and it did demonstrate it rather well.  After all, it is fantasy, and we're also talking about a people that can run all day in blistering heat without hardly breaking a sweat as well, so in a way it's somewhat of a moot point.

[Talmanes]

Once again they did start showing signs of hypothermia, and were covered up before it got too bad. I'm from Iowa and I don't even wear a coat until it's below zero. Faile is from way up north where it gets very very cold, so is probably just a little more used to cold than the average person. Even so she still reacts badly to the cold so I don' t see your point as valid.

[JenniferL]

I think its fairly clear that Faile was in danger of dying from exposure.

[sonieb33]

Also it was not even close to tundra, I mean it was cold enough for snow, but you don't get frostbite or hypothermia for a while unless it is really cold.

 

Spend some time outside naked when it's 32 degrees and let me know how long it takes before you begin shivering uncontrollably and begin experiencing effects of hypothermia.  Try walking around in the snow for about 5 minutes with no shoes on also, and let me know what kind condition your feet are in afterwords.

 

Sonieb isn't the only one that has issues with this particular part of the book.  I recently reread WH, and I had forgotten how unbelievably extreme the conditions were in that section.  It's to the point that that it's beyond ridiculous.

 

But in all fairness, I believe that this part of the book was intended to simply express how hard set the Aiel are in their ways and traditions, and it did demonstrate it rather well.  After all, it is fantasy, and we're also talking about a people that can run all day in blistering heat without hardly breaking a sweat as well, so in a way it's somewhat of a moot point.

 

THANK YOU!! Someone with some sense, lol.

 

 

[witsd]

The only issue I have with the naked / snow sequence is that the most irritating character in the entire series survives.

 

(But yes, I agree that it is silly that there's no frostbite or similar)

[Balefire to da face!]

Spend some time outside naked when it's 32 degrees and let me know how long it takes before you begin shivering uncontrollably and begin experiencing effects of hypothermia.  Try walking around in the snow for about 5 minutes with no shoes on also, and let me know what kind condition your feet are in afterwords.

 

While I don't really care for the idea of standing outside naked, I have been outside for hours in shorts and a thin t-shirt. I quite prefer the cold, and haven't had many problems.

 

Funny story, about 10 years ago my brother in law had a sat for TV and internet. Every time it would freeze over with ice he would have to go out and poor water on it to melt it or it wouldn't pick up a signal. One night I was over there and it was bitter cold(in the negatives without counting wind chill factor, one of the coldest nights around here that I can ever remember, in fact). I was holding the ladder for him, didn't have a coat on, and he decided that it was ok to just drench the sat in water, without considering that I was standing right under him. I got drenched in water, and was outside for about 20 more minutes covered in it. I will admit, my pinkies were numb for the rest of the night. But I was hardly losing digits ;) And I am just a skinny Indiana boy, I wasn't raised in Saldea with exploding trees and Trolloc raids...

 

The one valid point I can see is that barefoot in snow would be hell. I myself found that part of the books suspect. Can't say I know what the normal effects are, but I can't handle barefoot in the snow for long. Though, as others have said, Faile wasn't exactly enjoying herself. Wasn't long before she was leaving bloody footprints, if I remember right ;)

[sonieb33]

I live and grew up in Michigan so I know a little bit about cold weather and snow. Plus I'm a medical first responder so I know a little bit about exposure, frostbite, etc...too.

 

It doesn't say in the book that it was exactly 32 degrees but it has to be at MOST that for it to even snow so I figured best-case-scenario it had to be around 32 degrees;that or less. It says the air was "crisp" and Berelain was shivering in a fur lined coat that was heavy enough for "two blankets" (pg. 662). However, I think it would be safe to assume that it would likely be colder than that since temperatures rarely hold steadily at exactly the point of freezing going no lower (or higher without melting but we have no indication of melting)...and we won't even assume there is any wind-chill factor --for argument's sake. 

 

So, we're talking about 32 degrees, possibly colder, on bare human skin. I'm not 100 percent sure but I'm pretty sure they were exposed like this for a large part of a day, at the very least it HAD to be more than an hour.

 

True, according to Faile, in her land it's the equivalent of a late fall day...but then that may be some bravado talking since she's laughing at Berelain's shivering when she thinks it. But we'll take Faile at her word --again-- for argument's sake.

 

Hypothermia occurs when the body's temperature drops below normal (approx. 98.6 F). In turn, this occurs when there is more heat loss than heat gain. Most importantly the temperature doesn't have to be freezing or below (or even near) to experience it. Most importantly, for this argument, technically a person can become hypothermic at 50 degrees.

 

True, there are people who are accustomed to the cold and who seem to more easily adapt to the cold, either genetically or by long term exposure. Whereas it may be possible to explain away Faile's miraculous resistance to the cold, the same cannot go for her companions. They aren't all Aes Sedai and they aren't all Saldean's so, how do we explain them?

 

Also, no matter how adapted to the cold Faile may be...we're talking about tolerance to cold CLOTHED. Naked changes everything due to a heat loss/heat gain ratio. There is no way in h^&* that walking could account for the heat gain/heat loss ratio.

 

To answer other responses:

A person from Iowa who goes coatless until it's below freezing goes from heated house to heated car to heated building and doesn't walk around for half a day or longer without a coat - let alone naked. I DARE you to walk around for a mere 30 minutes NAKED at 32 degrees or less and see what freezes off first.

 

I got 30 minutes from the fact that after 30 minutes fully CLOTHED walking through the snow at 32 degrees I'm cold.I can't imagine what it would be like NAKED.Also, Lewis Gordon Pugh, who is a trained arctic swimmer cannot go much longer than 20 minutes in water that is 32 degrees F. I cannot imagine that ANY normal person would be better able to survive without his training; mind and body.

 

Oh, and I was exaggerating about the "tundra" comment.

[sonieb33]

Oh....and I forgot. Wrapping clothing around an already hypothermic person is like defrosting a Thanksgiving turkey by wrapping it in a towel and putting it back into a freezer. Again, heat loss/heat gain ratio - when there's significant heat loss you have to ADD HEAT (slowly) - not merely throw insulation over a freezing person; you're insulating a COLD person from the cold they are unable to generate enough heat to heat themselves back up...ok, ok...they may have stopped further heat loss but they didn't help with what should have already been SEVERE hypothermia.

Hence when Rand took his clothes off to save Avi's life after she fell through the ice...now THAT was the right response...well it was in the beginning anyway.

 

I won't even get into the hot tea remedy, lol, I don't want to be a stickler....oh, dang it OK, I'll say it: you don't want to heat a freezing person from the inside out, you want to heat them from the OUTSIDE in because you can give a person heart failure.

 

And the person who commented on the frozen lake: you DO realize I was talking about Egwene's horse's feet, right?

[Graendals favourite]

Personally, as a Finn, I did not find the passage not credible. I take it that 32 F is the freezing point of water. To confuse matters, here is a graphic used as a reference to getting frostbite on open skin, as a function of temperature and wind speed. 0 is naturally the freezing point of water in C. The first orange curve depicts the border for very cold, meaning to the right of it frostbite is possible after a fairly long exposure to open air. After the second curve, frostbite is possible after an exposure of over 10 minutes, and after the third, damage will be evident in less that two minutes. As one can see, and we are talking of a fairly southern land here, Ghealdan/Altara, even with a relatively fierce winter it is not likely to have been too cold, there is room to the left of the first curve. So frostbite will not be an issue. Also, exertion, that is forced exertion, will provide much heat, as is evidenced in winter sportswear. For instance, I doubt anyone would want to stay put outside very long in what people use for cross-country skiing. I find it reasonable, Faile and co passed out after all as well, with the correct symptoms of starting to not feel the cold.

[Majsju]

I take it that 32 F is the freezing point of water.

 

It should be a bit above the freezing point, as it can snow when it is several degrees above 0.

[Auld Manriva]

why read fantasy if any of it must relate to RL? Details, Schmeetails.

[Talmanes]

why read fantasy if any of it must relate to RL? Details, Schmeetails.

Best post yet. lol

[alligator]

Haven't you guys heard of Wim Hof, the REAL LIFE ICE MAN?

In January this year, Wim Hof ran a half Marathon (21 km) above the polar circle in Finland. He wore only a pair of shorts and no shoes. The ground (snow) temperature was 35 below.

Preeeeeeeeeeeeeetty sure Faile&co. are all like Mr. Hof here and super humans. Just another undiscovered, non-Power-related talent!

 

:P

[MatsLuck]

Honestly, as many times as I've been through the series, my brain is so on autopilot through those parts that I don't even care.

[Talmanes]

You? No!      -Unknown

Noticed your sig here and thought I'd mention that Asmodean said that, we just don't know who he is talking about.  ;D

[sonieb33]

Preeeeeeeeeeeeeetty sure Faile&co. are all like Mr. Hof here and super humans. Just another undiscovered, non-Power-related talent!

 

:P

 

HAHAHHA! This is the best answer yet....OK, I'll "give over", LOL. RJ can HAVE the super human non-power related resistance to the snow, but I reserve the right to roll my eyes...DEAL??