Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[clutzyninja]

That's cool.  I like it better that way.  It's a small reminder that the DO is not all powerful.

[EmperorAllspice]

That's cool.  I like it better that way.  It's a small reminder that the DO is not all powerful.

The fact that he always ALWAYS loses without fail should be reminder enough of that (sadface)

[Tomp]

Any idea of when "The wit of the staircase" documentary will be released?
What state of production is it in?

[Rhienne]

 

 

For wolves, if they die in TaR, the soul is destroyed. For humans, that is not the case, even if they go in the flesh, they are still reborn. 

Is there any reason why wolves' soul can be destroyed but human's can't?  Is this to do with the especially strong connection they have with TAR?  Is it the same for all animals who appear in TAR, i.e. all wild animals?

[EmperorAllspice]

So can a wolf be domesticated to the point where it can no longer go to TAR?

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

 

For wolves, if they die in TaR, the soul is destroyed. For humans, that is not the case, even if they go in the flesh, they are still reborn. 

Is there any reason why wolves' soul can be destroyed but human's can't?  Is this to do with the especially strong connection they have with TAR?  Is it the same for all animals who appear in TAR, i.e. all wild animals?

 

 

I don't know. All I know is that wolves are destroyed, but apparently humans aren't. 

 

I would say it is because all wolves go to TaR when they die, unlike humans, whose souls go to a different afterlife. Other animals are never explored. We never get to see any other besides wolves, so I don't know. If they do so in the same way as wolves, then I'd say yes, but it seems wolves have a special connection to TaR. 

[clutzyninja]

 

That's cool.  I like it better that way.  It's a small reminder that the DO is not all powerful.

The fact that he always ALWAYS loses without fail should be reminder enough of that (sadface)

 

DO we know THAT for sure?  It's been said that the Dragon has fallen to the shadow in the past, what happened then?

[Suttree]

 

 

That's cool.  I like it better that way.  It's a small reminder that the DO is not all powerful.

The fact that he always ALWAYS loses without fail should be reminder enough of that (sadface)

 

DO we know THAT for sure?  It's been said that the Dragon has fallen to the shadow in the past, what happened then?

 

 

It resulted in a draw.

 

Interview: Jan 16th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tim Kington (Paraphrased)

Question

(inaudible)

Robert Jordan

Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

 

We know however that the DO has won victories, just never the ultimate one.

 

Interview: Nov 1st, 1998

SciFi.com Chat (Verbatim)

Rothaar

When Rand takes Verin and the others through a Portal Stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

Robert Jordan

There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple.

 

 

Edited July 22, 2013 by Suttree

[clutzyninja]

Well ok then, lol

[EmperorAllspice]

So yeah, hardly an all powerful being that we need to be reminded is fallable considering he's never ultimately won.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It would be awkward if the DO had won before, since the Pattern would no longer exist, and the story would not take place. 

[EmperorAllspice]

I'm fine with him not winning. I just find it odd when people seem to like seeing the Dark One's weaknesses. Because it lets us know he's not invincible.

 

It's just... he clearly isn't unstoppable since he's never won. So what else do you need?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ahh I see, fair enough. 

 

I don't particularly care one way or another, but I must say that the Dark One was much more menacing in tEotW and tGH when Ishamael stalked Rand and co. 

[EmperorAllspice]

I dunno. I did think a lot of Ishamael's speeches to Rand were good. But he seemed way too... angry. The "Dark One" seemed far too frustrated for a supposedly timeless guy who's skilled enough to do all the things he's done.

 

I like the actual Dark One who seems more confident in himself. Confidence, Effort, and Competence are three things I put a great deal of stock in.

[clutzyninja]

The lore of the world says that the Dark One would destroy the pattern, but can he?  In the infinite turnings of the wheel, maybe the Dark One HAS won before, and made the world into his own image, only to have the pattern rebalance things again.  And now, the threat of total destruction of time and the pattern is just so much bluster.  I'm sure I'm talking out of my posterior, just a thought.

[EmperorAllspice]

I would be really angry if it were true. Because the only way I can tolerate the pattern is believing that it ain't invincible and unstoppable.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It is possible, but we don't really have the answers. RJ never said anything like that, he likely didn't even think of the possibility. 

 

So it is theoretically possible, but there is no way we will get an answer. 

[clutzyninja]

I would be really angry if it were true. Because the only way I can tolerate the pattern is believing that it ain't invincible and unstoppable.

Would it make you feel better or worse if I told you that from a physics point of view, everything is predestined as well.  From the start of the big bang, every partical was set in motion, and has preset trajectories and could be theoretically calculated.  Right down to the chemical processes in your brain that govern your decisions and actions.  They were all set in motion 14 1/2 billion years ago.  If anything, the Pattern offers more "true" free will than our own universe does. :)

Edited July 22, 2013 by clutzyninja

[clutzyninja]

I would be really angry if it were true. Because the only way I can tolerate the pattern is believing that it ain't invincible and unstoppable.

For a more lore friendly answer, it's not about saving the pattern for Rand and company, it's about life.  To them, the pattern has nothing to do with it.  They want to protect the people they life and make sure they have a future, whatever the pattern may will that future to be.

[EmperorAllspice]

Just makes the whole story feel pointless to me.

 

It took ages for my friend to keep me reading the books even though it's a story about the main character being protected by reality and bending things to make sure he wins. It took a LOT to make me ignore that.

[EmperorAllspice]

 

I would be really angry if it were true. Because the only way I can tolerate the pattern is believing that it ain't invincible and unstoppable.

For a more lore friendly answer, it's not about saving the pattern for Rand and company, it's about life.  To them, the pattern has nothing to do with it.  They want to protect the people they life and make sure they have a future, whatever the pattern may will that future to be.

 

 

I don't like it when the villain CAN'T win.

 

I don't just care about the main characters living or dying. It kills some of the magic for me if the antagonist has no chance of achieving his goal

[clutzyninja]

 

 

I would be really angry if it were true. Because the only way I can tolerate the pattern is believing that it ain't invincible and unstoppable.

For a more lore friendly answer, it's not about saving the pattern for Rand and company, it's about life.  To them, the pattern has nothing to do with it.  They want to protect the people they life and make sure they have a future, whatever the pattern may will that future to be.

 

 

I don't like it when the villain CAN'T win.

 

I don't just care about the main characters living or dying. It kills some of the magic for me if the antagonist has no chance of achieving his goal

 

But the DO COULD win.  The pattern can only "stack the deck," so to speak.  And that's just to give the good guys a fighting chance.  WIthout the pattern's intervention, the Shadow would have won, no contest.  The pattern didn't make Rand reach enlightenment on Dragonmount, that was all Rand.  The pattern didn't even win the last battle.  It set the pieces, and it was the determination of the people involved that made it trn out the way it did.

[EmperorAllspice]

But you just said that the Pattern always manages to turn things around even when the Dark One wins.

[clutzyninja]

Well the Dark One winning is just an abstract, it's more likely that if he does win, it's game over.

Without getting into spoilers, we do  get some further insight into the nature of the DO, and why he loses.  I was pretty satisfied with the revelations.

 

And besides, even if the DO did win, and the pattern does turn things around, it would likely be a VERY long period of darkness and despair.  Long enough to where the people living at the time (if there were any) would consider it permanent.

Edited July 22, 2013 by clutzyninja

[EmperorAllspice]

But you were just hypothesizing that you think the Dark One might be UNABLE to destroy the pattern. and since that's his goal, he'd be incapable of winning if that's true.