Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Durinax]

Did Berelain and Rhuarc have some love thing going on with each other in Lord of Chaos?

no Rhuarc and Berelain kind of adopted each other, Amys even went as far as to give her the daughters kiss or whatever

[Damer Sedai]

Have we seen a channeler use the Mirror of Mists/Illusion to take another characters face, that is so accurate such that even people who knew the original (copied) person would be fooled?

There are a lot of interesting theories out there using this technique, but I wasnt aware of a specific case, beyond "looking like someone different". I know TuonMirhage was disguised as a small dark skinned woman to imitate the DotNM in KoD, but did any of the Randlanders or the Sul'dam actually know what she really looked like?

[yoniy0]

Have we seen a channeler use the Mirror of Mists/Illusion to take another characters face, that is so accurate such that even people who knew the original (copied) person would be fooled?

Elayne took on Nynaeve's appearance, and Nynaeve herself thought it was good enough to freak out over the rest of Elayne's costume...

[Hagazussa]

I was wondering about one thing, can a channeler be shielded by more than one shield at the time. If a channeler where already shielded and another decided to shield them, possibly because they could not see the original shielding weave being of the opposite sex from the one who wove it or for whatever reason. Would the bound channeler then be shielded twice or would the second shield just not work?

[MasterAblar]

I was wondering about one thing, can a channeler be shielded by more than one shield at the time. If a channeler where already shielded and another decided to shield them, possibly because they could not see the original shielding weave being of the opposite sex from the one who wove it or for whatever reason. Would the bound channeler then be shielded twice or would the second shield just not work?

 

There were two circles of 13 shielding Rand when he went to the WT.

[mb]

About shielding, there were 6 shields on Rand when Eliada's embassy kidnapped him.

And I take that was the same for Logain both times he was shielded; and similarly on most saidin channelers the White Tower takes.

[Alric]

Have we seen a channeler use the Mirror of Mists/Illusion to take another characters face, that is so accurate such that even people who knew the original (copied) person would be fooled?

Lanfear posed as Else Grinwell and fooled Mat.

[Stitched up by a postie]

Does anyone know if Robert Jordan's drafts and notes for The Wheel of Time will be published, like Christopher Tolkien has done over the years for all his father's writings? I found it really interesting to read the unfinished material and see the difference between the drafts and what was eventually published for the Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion, and I'd definitely be interested in a similar approach for TWoT.

 

First post! Hurrah!

[yoniy0]

Doubt it, RJ was really sensitive about not even showing Harriet his work until after he had some 8 drafts done, so I'd expect her to be hesitant about publishing them (and god knows she doesn't need the money).

However, Brandon said he'd be open to specifying which scenes were predominantly his and which RJ's, after AMoL was out (of course, he would probably need Harriet's approval for that, also).

[Clouded]

About shielding, there were 6 shields on Rand when Eliada's embassy kidnapped him.

And I take that was the same for Logain both times he was shielded; and similarly on most saidin channelers the White Tower takes.

 

Huh, I always interpreted the shielding as 6 Aes sedai linked to form the shield. Am I incorrect? Is the shielding at the end of LoC really 6 individual shields woven together?

Edited September 19, 2012 by Clouded

[thisguy]

About shielding, there were 6 shields on Rand when Eliada's embassy kidnapped him.

And I take that was the same for Logain both times he was shielded; and similarly on most saidin channelers the White Tower takes.

 

Huh, I always interpreted the shielding as 6 Aes sedai linked to form the shield. Am I incorrect? Is the shielding at the end of LoC really 6 individual shields woven together?

I thought of it the same as you. 6 AS maintaining one shield.

[yoniy0]

Huh, I always interpreted the shielding as 6 Aes sedai linked to form the shield. Am I incorrect? Is the shielding at the end of LoC really 6 individual shields woven together?

Definitely six separate Shields. They've tied them off at different times, each doing so only when her abilities were deemed necessary to fend of the Shaido. Otherwise there couldn't have been both hard and soft dots there at the same time.

[Clouded]

Huh, I always interpreted the shielding as 6 Aes sedai linked to form the shield. Am I incorrect? Is the shielding at the end of LoC really 6 individual shields woven together?

Definitely six separate Shields. They've tied them off at different times, each doing so only when her abilities were deemed necessary to fend of the Shaido. Otherwise there couldn't have been both hard and soft dots there at the same time.

 

So, then, the strength of the shields must stack upon one another? That is to say, the strength of the shield upon Rand must have been a sum of each of the individual shields. What would function would linking to form shield serve, as done in ToM?

[yoniy0]

I don't know, except that it would be easier to Shield him that way if he already was holding saidin. And, I still believe the increased focus would result in a stronger Shield, but whatever. RJ wasn't ready to use that element of plot yet in LoC, probably.

[Vardar]

Huh, I always interpreted the shielding as 6 Aes sedai linked to form the shield. Am I incorrect? Is the shielding at the end of LoC really 6 individual shields woven together?

Definitely six separate Shields. They've tied them off at different times, each doing so only when her abilities were deemed necessary to fend of the Shaido. Otherwise there couldn't have been both hard and soft dots there at the same time.

 

So, then, the strength of the shields must stack upon one another? That is to say, the strength of the shield upon Rand must have been a sum of each of the individual shields. What would function would linking to form shield serve, as done in ToM?

 

I think they're all seperate shields, but since you can't break thru all at once it lends extra strength. When you initally shield, it would be easier to use a linked shield, it'll break thru, but once he's shielded, 6 separate shields are stronger than 1 linked shield with 6 sisters, since he'd have to break thru all 6, giving them time to reshield him.

 

If that makes sense.

[mandersen]

Did Berelain and Rhuarc have some love thing going on with each other in Lord of Chaos?

no Rhuarc and Berelain kind of adopted each other, Amys even went as far as to give her the daughters kiss or whatever

I had the impression that Berelain tried her seducing skills on Rhuarc, but he (or someone else) nipped it in the bud pretty quickly and effectively. It never says it, but there's something in they're early dialog that seemed to hint at it. I don't have quotes.

[Thrasymachus]

Six separate shields doesn't follow from the text. Rand's pov mentions feeling along the edges of a single shield to find the six points, and the Aes Sedai were maintaining a weave they could no longer see, because Rand was in a box. When he unravels the hard knots in the shield, if they were six separate shields some of which had been tied off, then the other Aes Sedai remaining and holding their weaves shouldn't have been aware that he'd unraveled the tied off shields because they wouldn't be able to see them unraveling, and shouldn't be able to feel them unraveling because they're not linked. But they do, as evidenced by one of the hard spots going soft again when Rand starts unraveling the tied off spots.

 

What this looks like to me is an inconsistency in the weaving/linking/tying off mechanics of the Power in order to produce some dramatic tension in the scene. If stacking individual shields is at least as effective, if not more so than having one linked shield, then there's no reason to link to maintain a shield on a male channeler, you'd only need the link to initially cut him off, after that, you'd be better of stacking individual shields because you can go well past the maximum circle numbers. And the Tower Law specifying I think it's a minimum of 6 linked Aes Sedai to maintain the shield on a male channeler wouldn't make any sense. And I doubt that stacking individual shields would be as effective at holding a male than a single, linked shield would be.

 

I'll illustrate this intuition with an analogy to breaking plates. Suppose a shield woven by a single Aes Sedai is like a porcelain plate. It'd be pretty easy to break through that plate. Now, stack six, or hell, even 13 separate plates together, and it's not much harder to break through all 6 or all 13 than it would be to break through the single plate, you've just got to keep your momentum going as you break through each layer. On the other hand, if you link those 6 or 13 Aes Sedai, they'd produce a single plate that's 6 or 13 times thicker than a plate they can produce on their own. That's much harder to break through than 6 or 13 individually stacked plates.

 

I think what's going on here is that when six sisters are linked, though they weave a single weave, the Power for that weave comes from six sources. Tying off a weave allows that weave to continue to be Powered, even though the channeler who initially Powered it is off doing her hair or something. So it seems to me that what's implied here is that a circle of six can form a weave that's say 4 times more powerful than anything any individual sister could pull off, and then 5 of those sisters could "tie off" their Power input to the weave, leaving one active channeler maintaining a weave at least 4 times more powerful than anything she could do on her own. This wouldn't necessarily allow re-weaving, so that you couldn't form a circle of six, have the leader form a shield, 5 go take a coffee break, and the remaining maintaining sister use all that power to re-weave a wall of fire or something. And it's clearly less stable to tie off a link, considering how Rand was able to unravel the tied off points, weakening the shield to the point where he could crush it utterly.

[thisguy]

Six separate shields doesn't follow from the text. Rand's pov mentions feeling along the edges of a single shield to find the six points, and the Aes Sedai were maintaining a weave they could no longer see, because Rand was in a box. When he unravels the hard knots in the shield, if they were six separate shields some of which had been tied off, then the other Aes Sedai remaining and holding their weaves shouldn't have been aware that he'd unraveled the tied off shields because they wouldn't be able to see them unraveling, and shouldn't be able to feel them unraveling because they're not linked. But they do, as evidenced by one of the hard spots going soft again when Rand starts unraveling the tied off spots.

 

What this looks like to me is an inconsistency in the weaving/linking/tying off mechanics of the Power in order to produce some dramatic tension in the scene. If stacking individual shields is at least as effective, if not more so than having one linked shield, then there's no reason to link to maintain a shield on a male channeler, you'd only need the link to initially cut him off, after that, you'd be better of stacking individual shields because you can go well past the maximum circle numbers. And the Tower Law specifying I think it's a minimum of 6 linked Aes Sedai to maintain the shield on a male channeler wouldn't make any sense. And I doubt that stacking individual shields would be as effective at holding a male than a single, linked shield would be.

 

I'll illustrate this intuition with an analogy to breaking plates. Suppose a shield woven by a single Aes Sedai is like a porcelain plate. It'd be pretty easy to break through that plate. Now, stack six, or hell, even 13 separate plates together, and it's not much harder to break through all 6 or all 13 than it would be to break through the single plate, you've just got to keep your momentum going as you break through each layer. On the other hand, if you link those 6 or 13 Aes Sedai, they'd produce a single plate that's 6 or 13 times thicker than a plate they can produce on their own. That's much harder to break through than 6 or 13 individually stacked plates.

 

I think what's going on here is that when six sisters are linked, though they weave a single weave, the Power for that weave comes from six sources. Tying off a weave allows that weave to continue to be Powered, even though the channeler who initially Powered it is off doing her hair or something. So it seems to me that what's implied here is that a circle of six can form a weave that's say 4 times more powerful than anything any individual sister could pull off, and then 5 of those sisters could "tie off" their Power input to the weave, leaving one active channeler maintaining a weave at least 4 times more powerful than anything she could do on her own. This wouldn't necessarily allow re-weaving, so that you couldn't form a circle of six, have the leader form a shield, 5 go take a coffee break, and the remaining maintaining sister use all that power to re-weave a wall of fire or something. And it's clearly less stable to tie off a link, considering how Rand was able to unravel the tied off points, weakening the shield to the point where he could crush it utterly.

I agree. I'd have to double check to be sure but I don't remember 'shields' ever being written, it was shield. And, as you say, he had to be careful how he broke the AS maintaining the shield so that he didn't alarm the other AS holding the shield.

Edited September 19, 2012 by thisguy

[Thrasymachus]

He alarmed them anyway, and he knew they were gonna be alerted as soon as he started trying, that's why he waited until there were only 2 sisters maintaining his shield before he tried to break out, so he'd have a chance of finishing before the missing four all came back. He ended up breaking a shield maintained by 3 active channelers and 4 tied off points, iirc, because one of the AS came back, but her coming back didn't replace one of the tied-off points. It reads as though a link must be composed of active channelers for actively weaving something, but can be composed of a mix of active channelers and tied-off points when maintaining a weave. It also seems as though a weave created through a link can be completely tied off while maintaining the same number of sources of Power, so if it takes 6 linked sisters to form a weave, that weave can be tied off completely after its formation and would consist of 6 tied-off points that comprise its source of Power thereafter.

[yoniy0]

That's completely speculative; there's absolutely no reason that the breaking of porcelain plates would be similar to breaking a Shield, although I give you that the comparison has poetry. To the point, a Circle has only one person weaving, albeit with the combined strength of however many people are Linked with them. You can't tie off a portion of a weave; either it's all tied off, or it's not. And people in a Link cannot wander off but keep the weaves powered.

 

EDIT: this argument isn't really relevant, either way. When Nynaeve Healed Logain, we have this:

"I think the least we can do is shield him until we are absolutely certain," Sheriam suggested. Romanda nodded, and a shield sprang into being strong enough to hold a giant as the glow of saidar surrounded nearly every woman in the room. Romanda restored a little order by briskly naming six to maintain a lesser but adequate shield.

So you see, there were far too many women in the room for the initial Shield to have been woven by a Circle even if the text didn't suggest otherwise, and yet Nynaeve is certain it would've "held a giant". Layering Shields works.

Edited September 19, 2012 by yoniy0

[Thrasymachus]

I grant that my porcelain plate analogy is speculative, if suggestive. However, it's even more speculative to suggest multiple shields when the text only ever says shield in the singular. With regard to tying off a weave, you tie off a weave to maintain its power once it's woven. In other words, you tie off its source of power, not the form of the weave itself. That form is maintained on its own as long as its a stable configuration and has adequate power being fed into it. Nothing says a weave can only be completely tied off, unless that weave only has one source of power. In a link, you've got multiple sources of power, even if you've only got one source for the form of the weave, so it makes sense that once the weave is formed, you can tie off all or some of the sources of power for that weave. Outside of a link, you've only got one source of power, so to tie it off, it's got to be all or nothing.

 

With regard to Logain's shield, linking doesn't necessarily require a great deal of time, in fact, it reads the same as channeling through an angreal. All it requires is the sisters being on the cusp of grasping the Power, and the leader reaching for that Power through them. Given who the Sedai were dealing with and Nynaeve's claims, probably every sister in the room was on the cusp of grasping the Power, so Sheriam or whoever led the circle that formed that initially overpowered shield wouldn't have had to wrangle for control if she simply acted fast enough. And notice that the text doesn't say that every sister in the room tried to shield him, just that a single, powerful shield sprang into existence, which implies a quick link and weave. Further, the text does say that the glow surrounded nearly every woman in the room. Keep in mind they're in a room. It seems unlikely to me that there'd be much more than 13 sisters in that room with Nyn and Logain. If there were, then to borrow a phrase from a different series, there wouldn't be room to swing a kneazle. In any event, it's clear that the Sedai weren't stacking individual shields, because the text doesn't say that the shield grew stronger as more Sedai added their efforts to the shield. The massively strong shield sprang into existence as a massively strong shield, not as a normal shield that rapidly grew to become massively strong. That strongly implies a single weaving, not multiple weavings stacking.

[yoniy0]

That's simply not accurate. In a Circle, each weave still has only one source, the one melding the flows. That one person uses other people in much the same way as one would use an angreal. They don't power weaves individually, and they can't tie off their part in them and walk off -- they don't have a part. What's more, Linking requires intent and permission. It's not enough to be on the verge, you have to consent to being added. If the sisters have planned on who would join which circle, well then they wouldn't have stumbled all over themselves to Shield Logain (there would be no need for Romanda to make order).

[Thrasymachus]

Distinctions are useful. I hear they're on sale too, you should go buy some. The useful distinction here is between the source of power for the weave and the source of the form of the weave. The form of the weave is what makes a gateway different from a fireball. The power of the weave is what makes one gateway bigger or smaller than another, or one fireball bigger or smaller than another. In a link, the form of the weave has one source, the leader of the link. But the power of the weave comes from the link, not the leader, she just melds the flows. A weave formed in a link has as many sources of power as channelers in the link. Since only the leader of a link can weave, only she should be able to tie off the contributions of sisters in the link and release them from the link while maintaining the power of the weave. There's also a distinction between a channeler and an angreal. Linking to another channeler is similar to drawing through an angreal, but not identical. Angreal are not sources of power, they are augments to existing sources of power, i.e. channelers. Channelers are sources of power, so linking to a channeler is not augmenting one's power as with an angreal, but giving the leader access to a new source of power they can meld with their own. Channelers are like taps off of a water main, each one is an individual source of water. Angreal are like flow regulators that allow much more water to flow through the tap than otherwise could. Links are like hooking up several taps together to allow more water to flow. So you could run a fountain using a single tap and a flow regulator, or by using several taps. But while there are superficial similarities in outcome and in hooking on a flow regulator vs hooking together several taps, there are still differences.

 

And I never said that linking doesn't require intent and permission. I said that the sisters in that room were already set to join a circle, and Aes Sedai hierarchy and protocol probably dictates who would lead the link in that situation, removing the necessity of going through a whole rigamarole of trying to form a circle with a group of channelers who either don't know how or who are somewhat unwilling. It's likely that every sister in the room was ready to join a circle from the minute they understood what was claimed to be going on. In that case, Sheriam or whoever lead that link could have formed it nearly instantly using as many channelers who were in the room ready to link, which was obviously more than 6, but probably less than 13. And the need to restore order comes from a surplus of sisters willing to join the link as well as the over-enthusiasm of the leader of that link.

[yoniy0]

Distinctions are useful. I hear they're on sale too, you should go buy some.

Easy there. Disagreeing with me is okay, but throwing insults at me isn't.

 

As to your distinction, again that's speculation without basis. All we've seen of Circles negates what you're suggesting -- tying off a weave is a substitute to holding it, not just powering it. And in a circle only the leader holds weaves. Besides, the only thing you're basing this on is that layered shields wouldn't allow an AS to feel that the totality is weakened when some layers vanish. Naturally, there's absolutely no evidence to suggest that as well.

 

As to Nynaeve and Logain:

Sheriam followed Romanda in, with Myrelle and Morvrin and Takima close behind, then Lelaine and Janya, Delana and Bharatine and Beonin, more, crowding in until they filled the room. Nynaeve could see others through the door that had no room to close.

That's ten names, then "more, crowding in until they filled the room". Without a doubt, more than 13.

BTW, you shouldn't forget that those AS suspected what Nynaeve did from the first. The reason they exploded with the Shield the moment Sheriam and Romanda agreed to do it 'just in case' is to hint at their itching to do so from the start, but being unable to without tipping off Nynaeve.

[Thrasymachus]

Calling what I say inaccurate is just as much an offense, mine was just delivered with a bit more snark. Everything I've said in this exchange has been accurate.

 

In fact, we have seen several example of links that work like what I suggest. The most glaring examples involve circles of both men and women. The leader of the circle weaves both, but the source of the power of those weaves, saidin and saidar, remains distinct. And several times it is implied that in saidar-only circles, there are several sources of power, as opposed to a single augmented one as with an angreal. That's why leading the circle is sometimes called "melding the flows." Melding implies bringing disparate parts together in a way that simple weaving does not, and it's a word that's often used to distinguish between weaving while leading a circle from weaving while alone. An individual channeler never "melds the flows," they merely weave, while leaders of circles often "meld."

 

Tying off a weave and holding it are both forms of powering the weave. One is active, the other is static. And power is distinct from the form of the weave. Sorilea shows Cadsuane the weave for Traveling despite being too weak to make it work. Weaves can be formed without the power to make their effects come into being, which just results in the weave dissipating. When a channeler is holding a weave and releases it, it dissipates just as if it lacked the power to bring it into being. When a tied-off weave is untied, it dissipates just as if it lacked the power to bring it into being. Holding a weave is about maintaining the flow of power into the weave necessary to sustain its effects. Tying off a weave is a way of maintaining the flow of power into the weave necessary to sustain its effect without having to hold it.

 

And your last point undermines your own argument, not mine. Of course they suspected what had happened, which is why they were all on the cusp of embracing as it was, and I can easily see Aes Sedai protocol when it comes to linking that you don't withhold yourself from a circle led by a higher ranking Sedai. The text itself clearly says shield, singular, not shields, plural, and it's always been pretty explicit whenever we know more than one shield is being held on a channeler, as in ToM where 2 circles of 13 are holding 2 shields on Rand, rather than talking about it as if it were one super-powered shield or 26 stacks of individual shields.

 

The text looks pretty clear to me. Weaves formed during circles can be partly tied off to maintain the strength of the weave without requiring the full circle that would be necessary to hold it.