Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[MasterAblar]

I find that unlikely on several fronts. First of all, Nynaeve is very strong. Very. If she's not strong enough, then who would be, Lanfear and that's it? After all, they were meant to be used, weren't they? Secondly, the CK weren't supposed to be used continuously for hours on end, which is a much more likely explanation. Third, in anyone's to blame, it's probably Rand, who might've 'abused' saidar since it was his first time ever in a link.

Anyway, it's all speculation; we simply don't know.

 

Yeah, I didn't mean that Nyneave had done anything wrong, my reasoning was just that someone of her strength combined with the length of time for which it was used might have adverse effects on the CK. Afterall while in the current age Nyneave is probably like top 5, in the AoL with the huge amount of channellers there were she might not have been quite so close to the top. Lanfear and Alivia are both stronger than her, maybe Graendal as well, and in the AoL that might have meant quite a few people. Since the CK were only meant to be used by the most powerful, Nyneave might barely qualify strong as she is.

 

Of course if Luckers is correct, none of this matters anyway. I hadn't actually considered the use to which the CK were put.

 

seal the boar

This is a very disturbing picture or might it be a sword form?

 

I concur.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Master Ablar

[Hagazussa]

Yeah, I didn't mean that Nyneave had done anything wrong, my reasoning was just that someone of her strength combined with the length of time for which it was used might have adverse effects on the CK. Afterall while in the current age Nyneave is probably like top 5, in the AoL with the huge amount of channellers there were she might not have been quite so close to the top. Lanfear and Alivia are both stronger than her, maybe Graendal as well, and in the AoL that might have meant quite a few people. Since the CK were only meant to be used by the most powerful, Nyneave might barely qualify strong as she is.

 

That is a very good point, Moraine at some point comments that while she is one of the most powerful in the Tower at that time, a few hundred years (I do not remember how long she said) earlier she would have barely been strong enough to attain the shawl. It is very possible that Nynave would not be considered very powerful in the Age of Legends and that she is actually not powerful enough to handle the CK safely, that is a possibility at least.

[yoniy0]

There could've been many stronger women, true, but not that much stronger (take a look at the 13th Depository's saidar strength ranking). Also, by Verin's account even Siuan, Moiraine and Elaida are strong enough for the CK. If that's the case, Nynaeve should be well above the threshold.

[Clouded]

That is a very good point, Moraine at some point comments that while she is one of the most powerful in the Tower at that time, a few hundred years (I do not remember how long she said) earlier she would have barely been strong enough to attain the shawl. It is very possible that Nynave would not be considered very powerful in the Age of Legends and that she is actually not powerful enough to handle the CK safely, that is a possibility at least.

 

I would find it hard to believe Moiraine is correct in these statements. Lanfear is regarded as one of the strongest female channelers in the AOL. Nynaeve is just under her in strength. To think that Nyneave would not have been considered strong enough to attain the shawl seems a bit ridiculous. I think it much more likely that Moiraine was wrong in this assumption.

[MasterAblar]

There could've been many stronger women, true, but not that much stronger (take a look at the 13th Depository's saidar strength ranking). Also, by Verin's account even Siuan, Moiraine and Elaida are strong enough for the CK. If that's the case, Nynaeve should be well above the threshold.

 

That's true I'd forgotten about Verin's comment on the subject. Then again Siuan Moiraine and Elaida are hardly amongst the most powerful in the rankings. In fact they're pretty much average. And Verin also claimed that Logain would not be able to use the male CK. Logain was nearly able to break a shield maintained by 6 AS. He is at least as strong as Rand was by the end of LoC and that's pretty strong. So it's possible that Verin was quite simply mistaken about this.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Master Ablar

[MasterAblar]

I would find it hard to believe Moiraine is correct in these statements. Lanfear is regarded as one of the strongest female channelers in the AOL. Nynaeve is just under her in strength. To think that Nyneave would not have been considered strong enough to attain the shawl seems a bit ridiculous. I think it much more likely that Moiraine was wrong in this assumption.

 

I believe Moiraine was talking about herself not about Nyneave, who is indeed only a few levels under Lanfear according to 13th depository ranking.

[fuzz1717]

I would find it hard to believe Moiraine is correct in these statements. Lanfear is regarded as one of the strongest female channelers in the AOL. Nynaeve is just under her in strength. To think that Nyneave would not have been considered strong enough to attain the shawl seems a bit ridiculous. I think it much more likely that Moiraine was wrong in this assumption.

 

I believe Moiraine was talking about herself not about Nyneave, who is indeed only a few levels under Lanfear according to 13th depository ranking.

 

I think Lanfear was literally the strongest female channeler in the AoL, or maybe tied with a couple others. She said at one point she was "as strong as a woman can be" or something along those lines. Nynaeve is like an 18, while Lanfear is was a 21? something like that.

[MasterAblar]

I would find it hard to believe Moiraine is correct in these statements. Lanfear is regarded as one of the strongest female channelers in the AOL. Nynaeve is just under her in strength. To think that Nyneave would not have been considered strong enough to attain the shawl seems a bit ridiculous. I think it much more likely that Moiraine was wrong in this assumption.

 

I believe Moiraine was talking about herself not about Nyneave, who is indeed only a few levels under Lanfear according to 13th depository ranking.

 

I think Lanfear was literally the strongest female channeler in the AoL, or maybe tied with a couple others. She said at one point she was "as strong as a woman can be" or something along those lines. Nynaeve is like an 18, while Lanfear is was a 21? something like that.

 

That's correct yes, on all counts. No woman is ever mentioned being as strong as Lanfear but it would be odd that there was no one in the AoL who could match her with the huge number of channellers there must have been. We know of at least Ishamael on the men's side, and there might have been others.

[a5m]

 

Actually the more likely reason was not the amount of Power drawn (far more saidin was used than saidar [an ant/mole hill next to a mountain]), or the strength of the channeler who used it (Nynaeve is cited as having sufficient strength, and the point you're referencing (Moghedien's comment) about the Choedan Kal being used at great strength for a long period of time is just as applicable to the male one--more so, because more Power was used). The most likely reason was the USE to which saidar was put.

 

 

Though really the simplest reason the female one didn't survive and the male one did was because the female one was still buried with only the sphere free while the male one was no longer buried. So the excess heat used while wielding that much power was able to dissipate for the male one and wasn't able to for the female one. So you ended up with Slag for that one.

[Luckers]

Actually the more likely reason was not the amount of Power drawn (far more saidin was used than saidar [an ant/mole hill next to a mountain]), or the strength of the channeler who used it (Nynaeve is cited as having sufficient strength, and the point you're referencing (Moghedien's comment) about the Choedan Kal being used at great strength for a long period of time is just as applicable to the male one--more so, because more Power was used). The most likely reason was the USE to which saidar was put.

 

 

Though really the simplest reason the female one didn't survive and the male one did was because the female one was still buried with only the sphere free while the male one was no longer buried. So the excess heat used while wielding that much power was able to dissipate for the male one and wasn't able to for the female one. So you ended up with Slag for that one.

 

The only part of the sa'angreal that seems to produce anything in the way of ambient energy was the sphere, which wasn't buried. Beyond that there is no evidence to suggest that the Choedan Kal produces heat as a by product.

 

I still maintain the simplest line of logic runs clearly to the only known stressor involved in the event--Rand trying to force saidar to mix with saidin.

[Durinax]

Actually the more likely reason was not the amount of Power drawn (far more saidin was used than saidar [an ant/mole hill next to a mountain]), or the strength of the channeler who used it (Nynaeve is cited as having sufficient strength, and the point you're referencing (Moghedien's comment) about the Choedan Kal being used at great strength for a long period of time is just as applicable to the male one--more so, because more Power was used). The most likely reason was the USE to which saidar was put.

 

 

Though really the simplest reason the female one didn't survive and the male one did was because the female one was still buried with only the sphere free while the male one was no longer buried. So the excess heat used while wielding that much power was able to dissipate for the male one and wasn't able to for the female one. So you ended up with Slag for that one.

 

The only part of the sa'angreal that seems to produce anything in the way of ambient energy was the sphere, which wasn't buried. Beyond that there is no evidence to suggest that the Choedan Kal produces heat as a by product.

 

I still maintain the simplest line of logic runs clearly to the only known stressor involved in the event--Rand trying to force saidar to mix with saidin.

he wasn't trying to mix them,in fact the reason he used saidar was because they wouldn't mix and saidar would remain safe

[Luckers]

Actually the more likely reason was not the amount of Power drawn (far more saidin was used than saidar [an ant/mole hill next to a mountain]), or the strength of the channeler who used it (Nynaeve is cited as having sufficient strength, and the point you're referencing (Moghedien's comment) about the Choedan Kal being used at great strength for a long period of time is just as applicable to the male one--more so, because more Power was used). The most likely reason was the USE to which saidar was put.

 

 

Though really the simplest reason the female one didn't survive and the male one did was because the female one was still buried with only the sphere free while the male one was no longer buried. So the excess heat used while wielding that much power was able to dissipate for the male one and wasn't able to for the female one. So you ended up with Slag for that one.

 

The only part of the sa'angreal that seems to produce anything in the way of ambient energy was the sphere, which wasn't buried. Beyond that there is no evidence to suggest that the Choedan Kal produces heat as a by product.

 

I still maintain the simplest line of logic runs clearly to the only known stressor involved in the event--Rand trying to force saidar to mix with saidin.

he wasn't trying to mix them,in fact the reason he used saidar was because they wouldn't mix and saidar would remain safe

 

He was, actually, though of course he was fully aware that they couldn't. That was one of the core two principles which allowed the Cleansing to occur. Here, I'm going to re-post my original description, since its clear the point is not being made...

 

Actually the more likely reason was not the amount of Power drawn (far more saidin was used than saidar [an ant/mole hill next to a mountain]), or the strength of the channeler who used it (Nynaeve is cited as having sufficient strength, and the point you're referencing (Moghedien's comment) about the Choedan Kal being used at great strength for a long period of time is just as applicable to the male one--more so, because more Power was used). The most likely reason was the USE to which saidar was put.

 

Specifically, in the Cleansing Rand used saidar to wring the Taint from saidin--as if saidin were a wet towel, the Taint were the water, and saidar were the hands that wrung it. Of course it's actually more complex than that, and far worse--saidin and saidar cannot mix and Rand used that concept to generate the force that compressed the Taint out of saidin--and saidar was the side of the Power he used to generate that force.

 

Hence, saidar was the stressor, whilst saidin was largely passive--the effects on it being the result of the application of force upon it by saidar. And, as a result, though more saidin was used, it was saidar that expended the effort, and thus the saidar Choedan Kal that felt the strain of it (and like you might snap a tendon in your hand if you wrung a towel too forcefully, so too did the Choedan Kal break)

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

Actually the more likely reason was not the amount of Power drawn (far more saidin was used than saidar [an ant/mole hill next to a mountain]), or the strength of the channeler who used it (Nynaeve is cited as having sufficient strength, and the point you're referencing (Moghedien's comment) about the Choedan Kal being used at great strength for a long period of time is just as applicable to the male one--more so, because more Power was used). The most likely reason was the USE to which saidar was put.

 

 

Though really the simplest reason the female one didn't survive and the male one did was because the female one was still buried with only the sphere free while the male one was no longer buried. So the excess heat used while wielding that much power was able to dissipate for the male one and wasn't able to for the female one. So you ended up with Slag for that one.

 

The only part of the sa'angreal that seems to produce anything in the way of ambient energy was the sphere, which wasn't buried. Beyond that there is no evidence to suggest that the Choedan Kal produces heat as a by product.

 

I still maintain the simplest line of logic runs clearly to the only known stressor involved in the event--Rand trying to force saidar to mix with saidin.

he wasn't trying to mix them,in fact the reason he used saidar was because they wouldn't mix and saidar would remain safe

 

He was, actually, though of course he was fully aware that they couldn't. That was one of the core two principles which allowed the Cleansing to occur. Here, I'm going to re-post my original description, since its clear the point is not being made...

 

Actually the more likely reason was not the amount of Power drawn (far more saidin was used than saidar [an ant/mole hill next to a mountain]), or the strength of the channeler who used it (Nynaeve is cited as having sufficient strength, and the point you're referencing (Moghedien's comment) about the Choedan Kal being used at great strength for a long period of time is just as applicable to the male one--more so, because more Power was used). The most likely reason was the USE to which saidar was put.

 

Specifically, in the Cleansing Rand used saidar to wring the Taint from saidin--as if saidin were a wet towel, the Taint were the water, and saidar were the hands that wrung it. Of course it's actually more complex than that, and far worse--saidin and saidar cannot mix and Rand used that concept to generate the force that compressed the Taint out of saidin--and saidar was the side of the Power he used to generate that force.

 

Hence, saidar was the stressor, whilst saidin was largely passive--the effects on it being the result of the application of force upon it by saidar. And, as a result, though more saidin was used, it was saidar that expended the effort, and thus the saidar Choedan Kal that felt the strain of it (and like you might snap a tendon in your hand if you wrung a towel too forcefully, so too did the Choedan Kal break)

I agree with this reasoning. Of course, it is just as likely that RJ needed an excuse to get rid of the CK so that there wasnt anyone with ultimate power for the Last Battle. As Rand convenientlydestroyed the male one

[Thrasymachus]

The only issue I have with Lucker's reasoning is that that's not the way I read the Cleansing passages in the text. To me, it reads much more like Rand used saidar to form a hose to siphon saidin, forcing it through that hose until it touched Shadar Logoth, and the mutual attraction between the SL evil and the taint acted like gravity to continue pulling the taint through. After getting the thing started, Rand didn't have to force saidin and the taint through the saidar tube so much as hold on to keep from being swept away.

 

I dislike the being buried and thus unable to dissipate heat hypothesis because we've never seen angreal or sa'angreal heat up due to use. If they did, Eggy should have to be wearing oven mitts to handle Vora's rod during the Seanchan raid on the WT. Since so much less saidar was used during the cleansing than saidin, the only difference that should make a difference that I can see is that saidar was structured into specific weaves to form the siphon, whereas saidin was pretty much just shoved down the tube unstructured. But this makes the female CK at least seem less powerful than advertised. Either one of them were supposed to be powerful enough to crack the world like an egg, it doesn't seem like holding a giant tube together for a few hours should be harder than that. I'd be interested to see if there are any author's notes that address the reason why the female CK melted, aside from the fact that the plot obviously required it.

[yoniy0]

As I said before, Rand was unfamiliar with saidar. By his own account, the weave looked nothing like what he thought it would. Combine his awkwardness with the amounts of saidin the conduit had to deal with (and the resulting pressure), and I think Luckers as a point.

Edited September 14, 2012 by yoniy0

[Luckers]

The only issue I have with Lucker's reasoning is that that's not the way I read the Cleansing passages in the text. To me, it reads much more like Rand used saidar to form a hose to siphon saidin, forcing it through that hose until it touched Shadar Logoth, and the mutual attraction between the SL evil and the taint acted like gravity to continue pulling the taint through. After getting the thing started, Rand didn't have to force saidin and the taint through the saidar tube so much as hold on to keep from being swept away.

 

The mutual attraction between SL and the Taint is the second principle I spoke of that allowed the Cleansing to happen, that being said the test makes very clear that Rand used saidar in the way I stated...

 

Drawing on saidin, fighting it, mastering it in the deadly dance he knew so well, he forced it into the flowery weave of saidar. And it flowed through. Saidin and saidar, like and unlike, could not mix. The flow of saidin squeezed in on itself, away from the surrounding saidar, and the saidar pushed it from all sides, compressing it further

 

As such, irrespective whether you or I am right about how the Cleansing worked, it still involved the same use of saidar as a stressor on saidin--saidar was pushing, saidar was the conduit, saidin was compressed, forced by saidar to flow faster. In effect saidar was the active element, and the strain of that is what destroyed the sa'angreal.

[Hagazussa]

Moiraine was walking about herself in that quote not about Nyneave, now off course even in the Age of Legends Nyneave would be a powerful female channeler, but if the CK was made for the very strongest she might not be among the top most strongest during the Age of Legends, also I guess there would be a difference between being able to use the big bad artifact and use it for hours, could it not be a combination of how long it was worked with and how much Power was used.

 

Also could it not be that the male CK was just made more sturdy. I mean Nyneave is one of the most powerful female channelers, if I do not remember wrong only a few of the female Forsaken are stronger, and still Rand would be able to best her in a second, it makes sense that the artifact made for male channelers be able to withstand more than the one made for female.

[yoniy0]

How much more? Back in TFoH, Rahvin thought Graendal and Lanfear would Link if threatened, and implied that combined, their power would rival his or Sammael's. Therefore Rand cannot be matched to more than four Nynaeves, if you will. However, the amounts of saidin Rand channeled dwarfed saidar, so how much sturdier would it have to be, if we're to accept your theory?

Edited September 14, 2012 by yoniy0

[thisguy]

Either way, during the last meeting of the Forsaken before the cleansing, one of the Forsaken mentions how the CK are indestructible. They were made with the thought of weaving the power to create a wall around the bore. I'm guessing this took more power than that. It wasn't a weave that was tied off but a continuous flow of power. Saidar was basically encasing a moving saidin AND the taint. As it guided and held saidin, I guess it was doing more of the work. Saidin just flowed. As it was encasing the whole of saidin and directing it (along with the taint...), it probably worked harder. Just a guess. What I take from the whole event is that the Forsaken thought them indestructible yet one of the keys was destroyed by what they did. Obviously, a big deal.

[Hagazussa]

How much more? Back in TFoH, Rahvin thought Graendal and Lanfear would Link if threatened, and implied that combined, their power would rival his or Sammael's. Therefore Rand cannot be matched to more than four Nynaeves, if you will. However, the amounts of saidin Rand channeled dwarfed saidar, so how much sturdier would it have to be, if we're to accept your theory?

 

I do not know, and I am not saying it have to be this way I am just thinking out loud or rather in writing. I would then assume that if the problem was that the female one was less sturdy then perhaps not that much difference would be needed, perhaps not to much safety margins where put into the artifacts.

[Sephie913]

Do we know if Taim ever knew who Dashiva was? IIRC, Dashiva was close-ish to Taim, so Taim probably knew he was a DF. But a Chosen?

[Suttree]

Do we know if Taim ever knew who Dashiva was? IIRC, Dashiva was close-ish to Taim, so Taim probably knew he was a DF. But a Chosen?

 

Fairly certain he did based on this...

 

TPoD

Rand smiled at him, a hard feral smile. "Add Corlan Dashiva to your list of deserters, Taim. Next time I visit the Black Tower, I expect to see his head on your Traitor’s Tree."

"Dashiva?" Taim snarled, his eyes widening in surprise. "It will be as you say. When next you visit the Black Tower." That quickly, he recovered himself, all polished stone and poise once more. How she wished she could read her viewings of him.

[Sephie913]

Thanks, I remember that now. It IS pretty suspicious.

[Luckers]

Actually the more likely reason was not the amount of Power drawn (far more saidin was used than saidar [an ant/mole hill next to a mountain]), or the strength of the channeler who used it (Nynaeve is cited as having sufficient strength, and the point you're referencing (Moghedien's comment) about the Choedan Kal being used at great strength for a long period of time is just as applicable to the male one--more so, because more Power was used). The most likely reason was the USE to which saidar was put.

 

 

Though really the simplest reason the female one didn't survive and the male one did was because the female one was still buried with only the sphere free while the male one was no longer buried. So the excess heat used while wielding that much power was able to dissipate for the male one and wasn't able to for the female one. So you ended up with Slag for that one.

 

The only part of the sa'angreal that seems to produce anything in the way of ambient energy was the sphere, which wasn't buried. Beyond that there is no evidence to suggest that the Choedan Kal produces heat as a by product.

 

I still maintain the simplest line of logic runs clearly to the only known stressor involved in the event--Rand trying to force saidar to mix with saidin.

he wasn't trying to mix them,in fact the reason he used saidar was because they wouldn't mix and saidar would remain safe

 

Yes, I know. You're not reading what I'm writing. I know his end result was not them mixing, but he forced them against each other to utilize the force generated by their inability to mix.

[fuzz1717]

Heres a random question: is there something special about 13 AS? we always hear that "even the thirteen weakest AS could shield Rand", but could the weakest 12? or does there need to be 13?

 

If we take Rand's approximate strength of about 25 (calling Lanfear 21, Nynaeve 18, and Elayne/Egwene/Avi 15, there is a saidar strength index somewhere and i recall Rand being a few levels above the strongest woman), and we know that the weakest AS (Daigain?) is a 4, then theoretically shouldn't only 7 AS be able to overpower Rand? Or does it not work like that.

 

Another related question: if we took 1 full AS of moderate power (say an 8) and had her link with 12 people as weak as Morgase, say, then they would only total a 20. Would they still be able to shield Rand because they hit the magical 13?