Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Maleshub]

If the dream refers to an event in Rand's life, then would no. 23 refer to the Dragon himself?

[dhammett11]

If the dream refers to an event in Rand's life, then would no. 23 refer to the Dragon himself?

 

I'd concur. He is the chief-o'-chiefs afterall, which earns a place on the council. I wouldn't argue for Avi since she'd be the Taardad representative, just one of the 22

Edited August 3, 2012 by Chel

[Terez]

Yes, but Rand is himself in the dream already. The stars are watching over him.

[dhammett11]

You're right. In that case... I dunno what I think now.

[Terez]

Hard for me to know what "the voice is real" means.

 

The debate has always suffered from semantics issues. The 'realers' are generally people who have a hard time making distinctions, taking the clear reality of Lews Therin's memories too far. It's what RJ intended—readers accepted Rand's interpretation without questioning it really—and the fact that he was able to pull it off was one of his greatest accomplishments, along with hiding Verin's mission in plain sight. You can argue about it all day, but as long as you recognize that 1) Lews Therin's memories were effectively Rand's memories, and 2) the 'voice' and its accompanying delusions were byproducts of taint madness, then you're all good.

 

I don't know about other 'realers' but I questioned Rand's assertions in great detail, and I have little problem with making distinctions. You claim the memories are real. You claim that Rand constructed a personality around those memories, and called it Lews Therin. Thus, you claim that the voice is not real, whilst the memories are.

 

Semirhage claimed that you are wrong. Lews Therin claimed that she rarely lies. This holds true in an analysis of her comments, including those which she should have no basis for knowing outside an abstract understanding of those with Rand's condition, as she stated Graendal provided her with, and thus I agree with Semirhage, Rand and Lews Therin's claims.

 

That's reading into it. You can't claim that her statement means I am wrong without reading into it.

Yes, of course, my appologies. Semirhage never directly stated that you personally were wrong Terez. My tendency toward the hyperbolic always tends to shoot me in the foot.

 

What she did say was the Lews Therin's voice was real, which was in direct contradiction of your point. Still it was wrong of me to present it in the idea that she directly contradicted you personally, Terez.

 

Still, she did say what she said, which was, and I quote: "his voice is real"

 

How is that in direct contradiction of my point?

 

Going on, just to make it clear I'm not trying to be short with you. What I'm saying is that the semantic difficulties mostly stem from the word 'real'. I'm guessing you're saying that it contradicts my point that "the 'voice' and its accompanying delusions were byproducts of taint madness". Correct? But Semirhage said that too. Cadsuane asked Rand how he could be sure it was Semirhage. Semirhage said it was because 'he's insane'. Now, if the voice is not a byproduct of taint madness (which is impossible to separate from any other kind of madness Rand has), then why does Rand have to be insane to hear it?

 

Either Semirhage is a reliable witness or she is not. Yes, the memories of Rand's past life are real. That is what makes the voice real. That is the only explanation that makes sense, taking Semirhage's statements together. To read any further into her comment aside from those real memories is to make an assumption that doesn't make sense. How does Semirhage know that the voice is real? Because the memories verify it, and for no other reason. Can Semirhage compare the personality of the 'voice' to the personality of the person from whom the memories came? Could Graendal even do that? It seems very unlikely, doesn't it? Is she talking about sentience? It's a pretty murky topic, so it seems doubtful, doesn't it? There is only one thing 'real' can mean in this context: the memories are real. And the voice itself means that Rand is insane.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Terez

[TristanWebb]

Then you have no basis to say that the voice is a construct. If the voice is real because it knows things that it couldn't otherwise, and there is no one to tell if the personality of the voice is the same as it was when it was alive, then both 'it is actually LTT' and 'it is a random voice that has LTT's memories' are equally valid. Occam's Razor says with two equally valid theories you take the one that introduces the least new assumptions, which is that the voice is actually LTT.

[Thrasymachus]

Souls construct personalities out of experiences and the memories of those experiences. The Rand Al'Thor personality is a construct too, it's just a "normal" construct, insofar as it is constructed out of the memories and experiences had by the soul now called Rand Al'Thor in his current lifetime. The Lews Therin personality was constructed out of the memories and experiences of the Dragon's soul in it's previous lifetime, and was probably also "colored" by Rand's fears and expectations, as well as the experiences had when both personalities were being projected by the Dragon's soul. The presence of the past-life memories, as well as the Rand Al'Thor personality's inability to incorporate those memories into a coherent and unified self-identity, resulted in the projection of the Lews Therin personality. The re-integrated personality of Rand Sedai is just as unnatural as the incoherent personality of Lews Therin, because it is the result of the unnatural presence of past-life memories. But while it's unnatural, it's a lot healthier personality for both Rand and the people around him, and a much more dangerous personality for his enemies than either the Rand Al'Thor personality, the Lews Therin personality, or even when the two personalities work together to a common end.

 

That's how the voice can be both real and a construct. All personalities are constructs, and all personalities are real, so long as they are constructed through the use of real memories and experiences. A better argument could be made that Mat's personality is "unreal," insofar as it has been altered and colored by the memories of all those other men given to him by the Finns. Unreal in the sense that those are not his memories or experiences, even past-life ones. Of course, those are still real memories and experiences, but an argument could be made that Mat's personality is not really Mat, it's Mat plus a whole bunch of dead guys. The presence of these unnatural memories in Mat didn't cause the appearance of competing personalities because the memories themselves are so inconsistent with each other that a single competing personality could not possibly be unified out of them, individually they are too incomplete to form the foundation for a competing personality, and Mat has an acceptable context within which to integrate those memories with his own.

[Terez]

Then you have no basis to say that the voice is a construct.

 

I do, actually. Tons of it. But that's a different conversation altogether.

 

If the voice is real because it knows things that it couldn't otherwise...

 

Rand knows these things, not the voice. As I've said many times, Rand remembers things directly far more often than he learns them from the voice.

 

...and there is no one to tell if the personality of the voice is the same as it was when it was alive

 

We have plenty of evidence showing that it's not the same.

[Agitel]

Has the idea that the 23 stars represent the 21 sitters plus the Keeper and the Amyrlin been dismissed? I don't know if it's my favorite idea, but I've seen it mentioned.

[Terez]

Dismissed, no. I just personally find it to be unlikely. Partly that's because I find the seal-breaking interpretation to be lacking, but partly it's because I doubt Egwene and crew will watch over Rand in any way while he does it.

[Vardar]

But why would the Aiel be a crystal ball. Crystal colums ok, but a ball? The sphere would have to represent something (imo)

[Terez]

The sphere represents the cohesive nature of the Aiel, and ji'e'toh is the only thing holding them together. I doubt the shape is particularly significant; the only spherical objects are the planets, the moon, etc. and it's a stretch to apply it to the Earth itself.

[Vardar]

The sphere represents the cohesive nature of the Aiel, and ji'e'toh is the only thing holding them together. I doubt the shape is particularly significant; the only spherical objects are the planets, the moon, etc. and it's a stretch to apply it to the Earth itself.

 

No, the San'Angrel were huge globes.

 

The Stone is half a sphere (A giant dome).

 

But I guess it could be right, hopefully we'll find out.

[Clouded]

Dismissed, no. I just personally find it to be unlikely. Partly that's because I find the seal-breaking interpretation to be lacking, but partly it's because I doubt Egwene and crew will watch over Rand in any way while he does it.

 

I also find the seal-breaking interpretation to be lacking, as you put it. If BS or RJ wanted us to know the dream was related to breaking the seals, they would have had Egwene know how to interpret the dream immediately. It has happened to her many times before, where her knowing comes to her either within the dream, or just upon waking.

 

Instead, we don't get her trying to force the dream into her logic for not breaking the seals.

 

Break the seals? She saw the image from her dream, Rand hacking at the ropes that bound the crystalline globe. "Rand, no," she said.

 

It comes off as a red herring. There have been many times the characters have made assumptions that are intended to mislead the fandom. The most prominent being Lan and Rand assuming Moiraine was dead. I think this is another one of those times.

[Knivy]

But then there was Min's hints that she still had a role...

[Vardar]

Trying to figure out Galad's age, messing around in the timeline I came across this:

 

Taringail Damodred is assassinated by Thom Merrilin, court bard at the Royal Palace of Caemlyn and Queen Morgase's lover. Marith Jaen is raised to the Amyrlin Seat from the Blue Ajah

 

WHAT?!?!?!??! Thom did what? Why? Where was this confirmed?!?!

[FarShainMael]

From EncWoT http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/t/taringail.html

 

Taringail plots to become the first king of Andor. Thom Merrilin learns of the plot and Taringail dies in a "hunting accident". (TSR,Ch17, TFoH,Ch19)

 

Recall that Thom is known as the Grey Fox.. and has 'very special' knives. He's not just a gleeman.

[Mulk]

I'd not seen that bit, but given Galldrian Riatin's sudden demise and a few other random bits from the series (things like someone wondering if Morgase knew Taringail planned to supplant her or some such), it doesn't really surprise me. Thom is a serious player in what today would be called the Intelligence industry/trade - both in the gathering of it and in the operations side of it.

[Vardar]

From EncWoT http://encyclopaedia.../taringail.html

 

Taringail plots to become the first king of Andor. Thom Merrilin learns of the plot and Taringail dies in a "hunting accident". (TSR,Ch17, TFoH,Ch19)

 

Recall that Thom is known as the Grey Fox.. and has 'very special' knives. He's not just a gleeman.

From EncWoT http://encyclopaedia.../taringail.html

 

Taringail plots to become the first king of Andor. Thom Merrilin learns of the plot and Taringail dies in a "hunting accident". (TSR,Ch17, TFoH,Ch19)

 

Recall that Thom is known as the Grey Fox.. and has 'very special' knives. He's not just a gleeman.

 

I suppose I failed to read between the lines or something. I mean I got the while he killed Galladrian or whatever, but I never got the hunting accident one. WTF.

[Agitel]

From EncWoT http://encyclopaedia.../taringail.html

 

Taringail plots to become the first king of Andor. Thom Merrilin learns of the plot and Taringail dies in a "hunting accident". (TSR,Ch17, TFoH,Ch19)

 

Recall that Thom is known as the Grey Fox.. and has 'very special' knives. He's not just a gleeman.

From EncWoT http://encyclopaedia.../taringail.html

 

Taringail plots to become the first king of Andor. Thom Merrilin learns of the plot and Taringail dies in a "hunting accident". (TSR,Ch17, TFoH,Ch19)

 

Recall that Thom is known as the Grey Fox.. and has 'very special' knives. He's not just a gleeman.

 

I suppose I failed to read between the lines or something. I mean I got the while he killed Galladrian or whatever, but I never got the hunting accident one. WTF.

 

Let me direct you to a quote from a different thread.

 

It's been hinted at and conjectured but not certain that Thom is a double-regicide. Galdrian we're almost 100% sure he killed and we know the reason. About Taraingail, there is a hint however, in Moiraine's conversation with him in TSR. Chapter 17

Her smile was just short of laughter' date=' but she spoke as if reading from a page. “Thomdril Merrilin. Called

the Gray Fox, once, by some who knew him, or knew of him. Court-bard at the Royal Palace of Andor in

Caemlyn. Morgase’s lover for a time, after Taringail died. [b']Fortunate for Morgase, Taringail’s death. I do not

suppose she ever learned he meant her to die and himself to be Andor’s first king. [/b]But we were speaking of

Thom Merrilin, a man who, it was said, could play the Game of Houses in his sleep. It is a shame that such a

man calls himself a simple gleeman. But such arrogance to keep the same name.”

Clearly Moiraine thought he had and Moiraine had a personal interest since she was Taraingail's step sister.

 

http://www.dragonmou...lled-tarangail/

 

So it seems like one of those things that have never been clarified but is intuitively obvious to the astute reader.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Agitel

[Vardar]

From EncWoT http://encyclopaedia.../taringail.html

 

Taringail plots to become the first king of Andor. Thom Merrilin learns of the plot and Taringail dies in a "hunting accident". (TSR,Ch17, TFoH,Ch19)

 

Recall that Thom is known as the Grey Fox.. and has 'very special' knives. He's not just a gleeman.

From EncWoT http://encyclopaedia.../taringail.html

 

Taringail plots to become the first king of Andor. Thom Merrilin learns of the plot and Taringail dies in a "hunting accident". (TSR,Ch17, TFoH,Ch19)

 

Recall that Thom is known as the Grey Fox.. and has 'very special' knives. He's not just a gleeman.

 

I suppose I failed to read between the lines or something. I mean I got the while he killed Galladrian or whatever, but I never got the hunting accident one. WTF.

 

Let me direct you to a quote from a different thread.

 

It's been hinted at and conjectured but not certain that Thom is a double-regicide. Galdrian we're almost 100% sure he killed and we know the reason. About Taraingail, there is a hint however, in Moiraine's conversation with him in TSR. Chapter 17

Her smile was just short of laughter' date=' but she spoke as if reading from a page. “Thomdril Merrilin. Called

the Gray Fox, once, by some who knew him, or knew of him. Court-bard at the Royal Palace of Andor in

Caemlyn. Morgase’s lover for a time, after Taringail died. [b']Fortunate for Morgase, Taringail’s death. I do not

suppose she ever learned he meant her to die and himself to be Andor’s first king. [/b]But we were speaking of

Thom Merrilin, a man who, it was said, could play the Game of Houses in his sleep. It is a shame that such a

man calls himself a simple gleeman. But such arrogance to keep the same name.”

Clearly Moiraine thought he had and Moiraine had a personal interest since she was Taraingail's step sister.

 

http://www.dragonmou...lled-tarangail/

 

So it seems like one of those things that have never been clarified but is intuitively obvious to the astute reader.

 

Sonofa...

 

How the bloody hell did I miss that.

[a5m]

And Thom recently got a blanket pardon for whatever he may have done in Andor or Cairhien. I have no doubts that Thom did both deeds....

[jwood01]

Do we know the names yet that Moraine is going ton share with Thom? The Aes Sedai responsible for Owain's gentling. If not, I hope that is going to lead to some Grey Fox awesomness in aMoL!

[Mulk]

I don't believe so. And I'm not sure it matters to Thom, at least not now in light of what else is going on. That seems like something he would chase down post-TG, assuming they all survive and he still feels the need for vengeance.

[Terez]

The sphere represents the cohesive nature of the Aiel, and ji'e'toh is the only thing holding them together. I doubt the shape is particularly significant; the only spherical objects are the planets, the moon, etc. and it's a stretch to apply it to the Earth itself.

 

No, the San'Angrel were huge globes.

 

The Stone is half a sphere (A giant dome).

 

And neither option fits the rest of the dream in any way.