Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)


Recommended Posts

In TSR Verin is in with Perrin, or just starting out for the Tower. In TGH she tells Rand the trick for going from stone to stone in the same world was lost and when Rand uses it, he uses the Toman Head symbol and another one that he chose as it had an arrow that pointed west.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 8.6k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Question in bk 4 TSR, shouldn't Siuan have felt when Alric, her warder, was stabbed? She had no idea until she saw him on the floor but I thought they were linked so that she would have known instantly that he was dead?

Edited by MatTuon
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest PiotrekS

Question in bk 4 TSR, shouldn't Siuan have felt when Alric, her warder, was stabbed? She had no idea until she saw him on the floor but I thought they were linked so that she would have known instantly that he was dead?

 

It is probably one of the biggest mistakes made in the books. You're right, she should have felt that.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Question in bk 4 TSR, shouldn't Siuan have felt when Alric, her warder, was stabbed? She had no idea until she saw him on the floor but I thought they were linked so that she would have known instantly that he was dead?

 

It is probably one of the biggest mistakes made in the books. You're right, she should have felt that.

 

RJ spoke on this.

 

Robert Jordan

For Roland Arien, a lot of people have asked questions about Alric's death. I should have made matters plainer. As I envisioned it, Alric, having sensed Siuan's extreme shock, came running to her and arrived just in time to be stabbed just before Siuan was taken into the anteroom. She should have sensed the knife going in, but that was masked by her shock. When she sees him lying there, he is dying, though not yet dead. As I said, I should have made it plainer.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's "explained" later when Siuan is Healed and suddenly feels his death, she thinks she didn't realize before because she was so shocked by what was happening to her. Not very convincing to me (and to most people), but it's the official explanation.

 

edit: Oh, I didn't know about that quote, Luckers. Doesn't it contradict what is said in the books then?

Edited by Rose
Link to post
Share on other sites

I am really confused about something that was mentioned earlier in this thread and in another thread about the Dragon always being male and if it is possible for the Dragon to ever be a female. Hopefully this is an acceptable place to post a question about a quote by RJ:

 

Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

Jordan said "Yes" then maybe a few more words and only then did I remember to actually put the recorder on again...

RJ: ...it would have to be. Err, in the differences between the same Age in different turnings of the Wheel, are that.. as for an analogy: imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages. Between the Age in one Turning and the Age in another. So it's quite possible that someone other than Rand could be the reborn soul of the Dragon Reborn.

Q: It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

RJ: It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

 

The bold parts indicate where I am getting confused; I feel as if they contradict themselves. RJ says yes it is possible for a different female soul to take the role of Dragon, and that someone other than Rand's soul could be the reborn soul of the Dragon. However, in the next section he contradicts this by saying it has to always be the same soul. There is another quote I found on another thread where RJ supposedly says:

 

If the Wheel needs a female Dragon, then it would weave in *insert female dragon name here*.

 

This, too, seems to contradict with the souls not changing gender and such. Basically, how is it possible for there to be a female Dragon if a) souls always maintain their same gender and b) it's the same soul every time. To me this means Rand's soul (or Lews, or any previosu Dragon) is ALWAYS going to be the soul of the next Dragon, and so on, and since souls maintain genders, it is impossible for there to be a female Dragon.

 

If someone could please clear this up for me and make me see the Light, it'd be much appreciated!

Edited by phoenixtrinity
Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing I can come up with is there is more than one soul that is a qualified "Dragon". In other words, in other turnings, LTT was a female channelr, and perhaps in that spin, the female side of the power was tainted?

 

Hrmmm.... this is an interesting turn of conversation...

Link to post
Share on other sites

The difference, as I see it, is the difference between spirit and body/mind. Spirit are those characteristics, the manifestations of the Dragon Soul, that LTT and Rand share in common - the unique powers of that soul coupled with fierce determination, a rigid personal code, and intense devotion to those they love the most, be it Ilyena or Elayne/Min/Aviendha.

 

Qualities like that are a deep, subconscious part of a person and while they do play a role in shaping what a person becomes, the body/mind are what the world around them sees, and what constitutes the major difference between the same soul _then_ and the same soul _now_. LTT was born into a world at peace, that didn't force him early on to adapt to something he didn't want to be. Rand, on the other hand... nature vs nurture, personal vs social. The same soul in two different worlds may appear very different.

 

I seem to recall seeing a quote (might have been a post) that suggested that the Dragon Soul could not be born a woman, since the gender was inherent, and that a Heroine more suitable would be chosen for the role instead, such as Amaresu.

 

However, if the Dragon soul could be born a woman, then I suspect you'd have a character that, while not necessarily mannish or even close, would be treated as an outsider by society for possessing overwhelming traits that are considered the stereotypical realm of men. Devotion to multiple lovers, by double standard, is considered sluttish, rigid adherence to a personal code, the trait of a domineering shrew. Not because it's right, but because people act that way.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I seem to recall seeing a quote (might have been a post) that suggested that the Dragon Soul could not be born a woman, since the gender was inherent, and that a Heroine more suitable would be chosen for the role instead, such as Amaresu.

 

I believe the quotes I posted above indicate the Dragon can't be born a woman because the gender is always going to be male (RJ said souls maintain their gender). How then would Ameresu (I've read this theory I think) be chosen, as a female, regardless of the fact she is a hero?

 

I suppose I just don't understand under what circumstances the Dragon could be a female, unless there are actually two Dragon souls, one male and one female, and only the male one is ever spun out unless the female is needed instead. In this case I could see how Rand is the male Dragon, and his soul will always be the male Dragon in every turning of the wheel in which a male Dragon is required, but there is a female soul (I'll use Ameresu as an example) which is the female Dragon as well. So there would actually be two different Dragons, not just one, but only one is spun out at any one time, and the female Dragon is only called upon if something happens to the male Dragon. Does that make sense? I don't believe it's supported by anything in the books, just something random I am using to explain my confusion.

 

On the other hand, under what circumstances would the WoT world need a female Dragon? If the real Dragon died, could he even be replaced, or would the Shadow "win"? (I put this in quotes because as I understand it even when Rand has been defeated/turned, the Shadow has not yet won).

Edited by phoenixtrinity
Link to post
Share on other sites

question from the TSR, is there a chronological telling of the history of the Aiel?

 

also the Aes Sedai with the Jenn Aiel, were they from the WT? or AoL?

Link to post
Share on other sites

question from the TSR, is there a chronological telling of the history of the Aiel?

 

also the Aes Sedai with the Jenn Aiel, were they from the WT? or AoL?

 

According to Rand's visions in Rhuidean, it took about 4-5 generations or about 80-100 years for the Aiel to arrive in the Waste after the Breaking.

It took another 2 generations, 40ish years, until Rhuidean is built and the Aiel start sending chiefs there.

 

The Aes Sedai are from the AOL. It is implied in Rand's visions that some Aes Sedai traveled with the Jenn right from the beginning.

Edited by Finnssss
Link to post
Share on other sites

Finnsss is entirely correct--some people speak of the reference to the men in steel as suggesting this was after Hawkwing's invasion, but RJ stated this was not the case.

 

For all that, the fact that the Aes Sedai are Ageless is impossible, unless these two women are random criminals who commited more than one crime in the Age of Legends, which does not seem likely. An early bookism--the very last, in truth. :)

Link to post
Share on other sites
I seem to recall seeing a quote (might have been a post) that suggested that the Dragon Soul could not be born a woman, since the gender was inherent, and that a Heroine more suitable would be chosen for the role instead, such as Amaresu.

 

I believe the quotes I posted above indicate the Dragon can't be born a woman because the gender is always going to be male (RJ said souls maintain their gender). How then would Ameresu (I've read this theory I think) be chosen, as a female, regardless of the fact she is a hero?

 

I suppose I just don't understand under what circumstances the Dragon could be a female, unless there are actually two Dragon souls, one male and one female, and only the male one is ever spun out unless the female is needed instead. In this case I could see how Rand is the male Dragon, and his soul will always be the male Dragon in every turning of the wheel in which a male Dragon is required, but there is a female soul (I'll use Ameresu as an example) which is the female Dragon as well. So there would actually be two different Dragons, not just one, but only one is spun out at any one time, and the female Dragon is only called upon if something happens to the male Dragon. Does that make sense? I don't believe it's supported by anything in the books, just something random I am using to explain my confusion.

 

On the other hand, under what circumstances would the WoT world need a female Dragon? If the real Dragon died, could he even be replaced, or would the Shadow "win"? (I put this in quotes because as I understand it even when Rand has been defeated/turned, the Shadow has not yet won).

 

I think the term "Dragon" is more of a modifier. LTT is an individual soul (made up of different rebirths - like Rand), like Birgitte, or Gaidal Cain. The Dragon is a role the pattern call on to effect change. So many different people could be the Dragon, but they are still themselves. Perhaps the Dragon can only be someone who can channel (this was confirmed by RJ to be tied to a soul), so Birgitte, as an example, would never be the Dragon - but another famous female channeler could end up being the Dragon on a particular turning.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Wasn't Dragon just a title, given to LTT in stead of Demandred by a hair, like a lot of things Demandred missed out on (born a day later, not quite as strong/good with the OP etc.)

I see it as LTT/Rand CoL soul, being the Hero of the Heroes, called upon when stuff really begins hitting the fan.

 

Channeling is tied to the soul, as well as genetic. I seem to remember a tale of Birgitte bonding Gaidal Cain as her warder in a previous life during the Trolloc Wars. (around the time Elayne bonded her)

Link to post
Share on other sites

The pattern spins out a Hero when that hero is needed. Jordan, in the interviews I've seen, was quick to make the point that WHICH Hero got spun out was subjective; the pattern picked the best Hero from the "list" it had to choose from. Sooo... perhaps in other rotations of the wheel, they didn't have the Dragon, but the Monkey King... or the Dryad.. or the arch Angel... it goes on.

 

My point is, I think "dragon" is a description seers used to describe the soul of LTT, and as such, its specific to THIS turning on the wheel, but there is always a soul that seals the Dark One temperarily, destined to be reborn to finish the job 3,000 years later. Whether that is a woman or a man depends on which soul got spun out in the AoL to start the thing off.

 

Now!! That certainly doesn't explain Ishy's insistance that Rand and he have battle for eons, over and over. It only explains what Jordan has said in the interviews noted above as well as others on the same topic.

Link to post
Share on other sites

About the Aiel, all the info is also covered in the guide; also known as the big white book. Actual title: The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time.

For the Aiel, chapter 20 and part of chapter 3. For the other info in the scenes, those are spread throughout the guide.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The pattern spins out a Hero when that hero is needed. Jordan, in the interviews I've seen, was quick to make the point that WHICH Hero got spun out was subjective; the pattern picked the best Hero from the "list" it had to choose from. Sooo... perhaps in other rotations of the wheel, they didn't have the Dragon, but the Monkey King... or the Dryad.. or the arch Angel... it goes on.

 

My point is, I think "dragon" is a description seers used to describe the soul of LTT, and as such, its specific to THIS turning on the wheel, but there is always a soul that seals the Dark One temperarily, destined to be reborn to finish the job 3,000 years later. Whether that is a woman or a man depends on which soul got spun out in the AoL to start the thing off.

 

Now!! That certainly doesn't explain Ishy's insistance that Rand and he have battle for eons, over and over. It only explains what Jordan has said in the interviews noted above as well as others on the same topic.

 

The Dark One, speaking to Demandred in the prologue of LoC, said Rand was "MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON". I'm not sure how that fits in to everything, but if the DO himself considers the Dragon his "ancient enemy", well then I'd say the Dragon (or at least his soul) is pretty special, even amongst the heroes. Incidentally, out of all the heroes mentioned do we know of any that can channel apart from the Dragon?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Do all Aes Sedai ward their dreams?

Do they do so to avoid sending their dreams to others like Be'lal and Sammael in TDR, or is it to block people from entering their dreams?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Do all Aes Sedai ward their dreams?

Do they do so to avoid sending their dreams to others like Be'lal and Sammael in TDR, or is it to block people from entering their dreams?

 

Mostly its to avoid sharing their dreams like Be'lal and Sammael (stated in New Spring), but they are aware of the dangers of the Shadow walking in their dreams, and know the practice of shielding makes them safe.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah cheers.

I had remembered some questions the Salidar Aes Sedai had asked of the Dreamwalkers, that I thought might have implied they didn't know some might be able to access their dreams.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Jordan, in the interviews I've seen, was quick to make the point that WHICH Hero got spun out was subjective; the pattern picked the best Hero from the "list" it had to choose from.
Could you link to those interviews?
Link to post
Share on other sites

I've noticed that Perrin when in Telaranrhiod,he will often see visions up in the sky, but I can't remember does Egwene or anyone else ever see anything like that when in Telanrhiod? Is Perrin a male dreamer or have some kind of fortelling that he see's these things? Or does it have to do with his wolf talking? Do they ever mention it in the books, (I can't remember) and does he ever actually use those visions to good use or does he always simply dismiss them.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've noticed that Perrin when in Telaranrhiod,he will often see visions up in the sky, but I can't remember does Egwene or anyone else ever see anything like that when in Telanrhiod? Is Perrin a male dreamer or have some kind of fortelling that he see's these things? Or does it have to do with his wolf talking? Do they ever mention it in the books, (I can't remember) and does he ever actually use those visions to good use or does he always simply dismiss them.

 

Perrin is not a male Dreamer in the strictest sense, as there is a difference between the Talent of Dreaming and the Wolf Dream. That being said those windows do show the future, so it is a style of prophecy. As to what causes it, we don't know--the wolves themselves never see the windows, so its possible that its a unique Talent that Perrin has, or perhaps all Wolfbrothers who walk the Dream have this skill (Elyas does not enter the Wolf Dream, so we don't know).

 

Perrin has never specifically used these windows to achieve anything.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Jordan, in the interviews I've seen, was quick to make the point that WHICH Hero got spun out was subjective; the pattern picked the best Hero from the "list" it had to choose from.
Could you link to those interviews?

 

 

Earlier in the thread, there was this (mostly because most of my interview bookmarks don't seem to go anywhere these days):

 

Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

Jordan said "Yes" then maybe a few more words and only then did I remember to actually put the recorder on again...

RJ: ...it would have to be. Err, in the differences between the same Age in different turnings of the Wheel, are that.. as for an analogy: imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages. Between the Age in one Turning and the Age in another. So it's quite possible that someone other than Rand could be the reborn soul of the Dragon Reborn.

Q: It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

RJ: It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

 

 

If the Wheel needs a female Dragon, then it would weave in *insert female dragon name here*.

 

The last quote highly suggests that the "Pattern" or the "Wheel" spins out whatever hero it has availible that fits the role it needs...I just used the word "list" for ease of concept. There are others I remember where Jordan discusses the Heroes of the Horn specifically, but even Terez's links (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=372) aren't working for me. Sorry I couldn't give more specific interviews; but I'm not saying anything here that is too controversial.

 

In the end, I just find the half the topic is at odds with the other. When the characters in the books who discuss the on going fight between the Hero of Light and the Hero of Dark, they are Rand's soul specific. But these interviews alone suggest it wasn't always Rand's soul as the HoL. Confusing!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...