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An enormous sphere made of the finest crystal on a dark hilltop. It sparkles in the light of twenty-three enormous stars. There are cracks in it and it is help together by ropes. Rand walks up with a woodsman axe and chops the ropes. The sphere breaks apart, falling to pieces and Rand shakes his head.

 

Anyone have any idea of the "twenty-three enormous stars", in Egwene's dream of Rand breaking the seals? Aiel clans plus nations of the world? 11 Clans. 4 Borderlands. 5 under Rand; Arad Doman, Andor, Cairhein, Tear and Illian. 3 Seanchan control; Altara, Amadicia and Tarabon. Then Ghealdan. That's 24 total without counting Murandy if indeed it is under Demandred.

 

Thoughts?

 

The Aiel, probably. Someone said their council has 23 members.

I think it has nothing to do with the seals or the dark one's prison. Egwene is wrong, as usual.

 

Let's not change this in an Egwene hate thread.

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An enormous sphere made of the finest crystal on a dark hilltop. It sparkles in the light of twenty-three enormous stars. There are cracks in it and it is help together by ropes. Rand walks up with a woodsman axe and chops the ropes. The sphere breaks apart, falling to pieces and Rand shakes his head.

 

Anyone have any idea of the "twenty-three enormous stars", in Egwene's dream of Rand breaking the seals? Aiel clans plus nations of the world? 11 Clans. 4 Borderlands. 5 under Rand; Arad Doman, Andor, Cairhein, Tear and Illian. 3 Seanchan control; Altara, Amadicia and Tarabon. Then Ghealdan. That's 24 total without counting Murandy if indeed it is under Demandred.

 

Thoughts?

 

I'm not really sure it fits, but 21 Sitters, plus the Amyrlin and Keeper make up the White Tower leadership. Presuming the sphere is the DO's prison and the ropes are the seals, the White Tower is set up to lead the opposition to Rand's plan to break the final seals.

 

-- dwn

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An enormous sphere made of the finest crystal on a dark hilltop. It sparkles in the light of twenty-three enormous stars. There are cracks in it and it is help together by ropes. Rand walks up with a woodsman axe and chops the ropes. The sphere breaks apart, falling to pieces and Rand shakes his head.

 

Anyone have any idea of the "twenty-three enormous stars", in Egwene's dream of Rand breaking the seals? Aiel clans plus nations of the world? 11 Clans. 4 Borderlands. 5 under Rand; Arad Doman, Andor, Cairhein, Tear and Illian. 3 Seanchan control; Altara, Amadicia and Tarabon. Then Ghealdan. That's 24 total without counting Murandy if indeed it is under Demandred.

 

Thoughts?

 

The Aiel, probably. Someone said their council has 23 members.

Also, the crystal globe might be symbolic of the Aiel essence in the Rhuidean ter'angreal. The ropes holding the Aiel together represent ji'e'toh. Rand destroys the Aiel by taking away their way of earning honor (in battle).

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Let's not change this in an Egwene hate thread.

 

WTF?! That was uncalled for.

Edited by csarmi
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An enormous sphere made of the finest crystal on a dark hilltop. It sparkles in the light of twenty-three enormous stars. There are cracks in it and it is help together by ropes. Rand walks up with a woodsman axe and chops the ropes. The sphere breaks apart, falling to pieces and Rand shakes his head.

 

Anyone have any idea of the "twenty-three enormous stars", in Egwene's dream of Rand breaking the seals? Aiel clans plus nations of the world? 11 Clans. 4 Borderlands. 5 under Rand; Arad Doman, Andor, Cairhein, Tear and Illian. 3 Seanchan control; Altara, Amadicia and Tarabon. Then Ghealdan. That's 24 total without counting Murandy if indeed it is under Demandred.

 

Thoughts?

 

The Aiel, probably. Someone said their council has 23 members.

Also, the crystal globe might be symbolic of the Aiel essence in the Rhuidean ter'angreal. The ropes holding the Aiel together represent ji'e'toh. Rand destroys the Aiel by taking away their way of earning honor (in battle).

 

Doesn't a Dream show the future?

 

Or do you mean that this happens in TG?

Edited by Leyrann
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Doesn't a Dream show the future?

They show possible futures. Dreams can be prevented. Prophecies and Min's viewings are absolute. (Though prophecies can be recorded wrong or misinterpreted, and Min sometimes misinterprets her viewings as well...but for Min, the words come with the viewing, so you have to go by what she says rather than what people think about it - like with Alivia, for example.)

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I think no one is in control in Ghealdan, so that would make 23.

 

Alliandre is (and Perrin).

 

But how many power does she have? As Galad (or maybe someone else, but I think him) thinks, there were probably 10 people claiming the throne.

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Egwene, Alviarin and the BA hunters.

How could they NOT figure out that Alviarin is Black Ajah? Either her or Elaida should be and Egwene has Alviarin's letter as a clue (with lies).

 

Is that a plothole?

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Killing the weaver normally doesn't remove Compulsion. Using enough balefire to kill the weaver so that the weaver's thread is removed from the Pattern before the Compulsion is woven, does remove Compulsion.

Example 1: Morgause is still under Compulsion from Rahvin even though Rahvin died of balefire because Rahvin had imposed Compulsion on Morgause many months before Rand balefired Rahvin and Rand's balefire couldn't reach back that far.

Example 2: Balefiring Delana and Halima did remove Ramshalam's Compulsion because Rand could balefire their threads back till a time before the Compulsion was imposed.

 

This issue has been squirreling around in the back of mind for a while now. Please consider the following (and also excuse the lack of specific quotes at the moment):

 

- we've scene evidence that a strong will/sense of self will cause the Compulsee (i.e. Morgase) to struggle against the Compulsion without even being aware they are doing so

 

- over time, at least with a person similar to Morgase, the effects of the Compulsion wane and the person's efforts toward freedom from the weave grow more successful

 

- since Rahvin overcomes Morgase's resistance when she first learns of rebellion in the TR, we know the Compulsor (i.e. Rahvin) can A. tweak the Compulsion (like an AS does to the Warder bond), B. give an existing Compulsion a re-charge or, C. overlay a temporary Compulsion on existing weaves without removing the original Compulsion

 

- realistically, the Compulsor could use the weave to induce an overarching modus operandi from the Compulsee rather than a specific action at a particular point in time - "You will obey me from now on" - and probably happens often

 

 

So, it seems like the death of the Compulsor would at least have some impact on the effectiveness of any particular on-going Compulsion that they had previously woven. Further, the "wording" of any particular Compulsion may render itself moot if the Compulsor dies and the Compulsee is convinced of it. What if Rahvin had lain a specific Compulsion on Nynaeve (just imagine it) to the effect of "meet me in x-days in the throne room of the Caemlyn palace." Two days before the meeting, Nyn sees Rand balefire Rahvin. Will Nyn then be Compulsed to go to the throne room on that day? When the time comes, will she balefire herself to try to "meet" Rahvin? Extending that line of thinking to a pre-mortum Compulsion of "you will obey me" makes me wonder.

 

Those questions intrigue me, discussion/thoughts/counterpoints/answers most welcome.

Edited by FanoLan
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He'd been wandering around with Karldin visiting various stedding. So they must have triangulated inside a likely region and asked around? I don't recall if there was an explanation in the text.

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He'd been wandering around with Karldin visiting various stedding. So they must have triangulated inside a likely region and asked around? I don't recall if there was an explanation in the text.

 

No explanation - later in the text we learn that Covril had insisted they go to the Great Stump and after speaking there, were on their way to Shangtai IIRC. Algarin's isn't too far from Shangtai relatively speaking, but no explanation is given for why they would go there. It could be far enough east to be a sort of renowned stopover for Ogier on their way to the Stedding I guess, but no such reference is made anywhere in the books. Just a curiosity at this point, don't think it has any real significance, like a potential for DF Ogier.

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Killing the weaver normally doesn't remove Compulsion. Using enough balefire to kill the weaver so that the weaver's thread is removed from the Pattern before the Compulsion is woven, does remove Compulsion.

Example 1: Morgause is still under Compulsion from Rahvin even though Rahvin died of balefire because Rahvin had imposed Compulsion on Morgause many months before Rand balefired Rahvin and Rand's balefire couldn't reach back that far.

Example 2: Balefiring Delana and Halima did remove Ramshalam's Compulsion because Rand could balefire their threads back till a time before the Compulsion was imposed.

 

This issue has been squirreling around in the back of mind for a while now. Please consider the following (and also excuse the lack of specific quotes at the moment):

 

- we've scene evidence that a strong will/sense of self will cause the Compulsee (i.e. Morgase) to struggle against the Compulsion without even being aware they are doing so

 

- over time, at least with a person similar to Morgase, the effects of the Compulsion wane and the person's efforts toward freedom from the weave grow more successful

 

- since Rahvin overcomes Morgase's resistance when she first learns of rebellion in the TR, we know the Compulsor (i.e. Rahvin) can A. tweak the Compulsion (like an AS does to the Warder bond), B. give an existing Compulsion a re-charge or, C. overlay a temporary Compulsion on existing weaves without removing the original Compulsion

 

- realistically, the Compulsor could use the weave to induce an overarching modus operandi from the Compulsee rather than a specific action at a particular point in time - "You will obey me from now on" - and probably happens often

 

 

So, it seems like the death of the Compulsor would at least have some impact on the effectiveness of any particular on-going Compulsion that they had previously woven. Further, the "wording" of any particular Compulsion may render itself moot if the Compulsor dies and the Compulsee is convinced of it. What if Rahvin had lain a specific Compulsion on Nynaeve (just imagine it) to the effect of "meet me in x-days in the throne room of the Caemlyn palace." Two days before the meeting, Nyn sees Rand balefire Rahvin. Will Nyn then be Compulsed to go to the throne room on that day? When the time comes, will she balefire herself to try to "meet" Rahvin? Extending that line of thinking to a pre-mortum Compulsion of "you will obey me" makes me wonder.

 

Those questions intrigue me, discussion/thoughts/counterpoints/answers most welcome.

 

 

This is really interesting. It should be in a thread of it's own, though. Not a simple question, not a simple answer.

 

To sum up what I think about it, I think Compulsion might work somewhat like the Oaths do (as I see the Oaths as some sort of voluntary Compulsion.

In New Spring, Moiraine comforts Siuan by telling her "It will all be all right" or something along these lines. She is surprised that the Oaths would let her say that. Likewise, in Salidar, some Aes Sedai summon Nynaeve (through Nicola, I believe) while saying stuff like "If that girl ain't here within fifteen minutes, I'll peel her hide off". And let's not forget the Aes Sedai, walking into the middle of a battlefield so that they can convince themselves they're in enough danger to use the Power as a weapon.

 

What's common for all these things is that they show that so some extent, the oaths are compatible with a subjective perspective. As so, I would say Compulsion would be aswell (again, to some extent, and beholden to the person who inflicts the compulsion and his/her/Graendal's level of skill with the weave, somewhat similar to how the wording of the oaths might increase or decrease the importance of subjectivity).

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Egwene, Alviarin and the BA hunters.

How could they NOT figure out that Alviarin is Black Ajah? Either her or Elaida should be and Egwene has Alviarin's letter as a clue (with lies).

 

Is that a plothole?

No, because they considered it based on that logic and tried to watch her.

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Covril, Haman intend to speak at the Stump, they've not yet gone there.

We know they were looking for Loial since LoC.

Algiarin has Ogier rooms so he is a known stopover for Ogier in the vicinity in that sense.

Loial wandering around various stedding would have raised waves of some description in Ogier society.

When the three arrived at Algiarin's manor, (maybe semi-accidentally) they would have learnt the Dragon Reborn and various people including one ogier was there...

Reasonably logical, though not necessarily correct -I don't think you'll get a clear explanation.

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Question - how did Erith, Haman and Covril find Loail at Algarin's manor house?

 

 

It was random...or as random as things get around a Ta'veren.

Rand needs Loial to address the stump, he needs the Ogier to stay and help even if he doesn't know it yet.

So Rand's need drew Haman, Covril and Erith to him and Loial to make it all happen.

 

 

Also, they have arrived at the Stedding, Rand dropped them off there in KoD Chpt 21 and we know that Loial does indeed address the Stump as per the foreword quote at the beginning of ToM. Granted this quote was from Loial's book and not in "real time" but the time frame from KoD 21 to the end of ToM is almost 3 months.

So it's safe to assume Loial already addressed the stump and it's just a matter of time but I think we know that when dealing with Ogier, a decision will not get made overnight.

Either way, we should expect to see the results of Loial's address fairly early in aMoL.

Edited by Finnssss
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Covril, Haman intend to speak at the Stump, they've not yet gone there.

We know they were looking for Loial since LoC.

 

Are you sure they didn't do a stopover quick-chat along the way to Algarin's? Seems I remember some chit chat just before the attack on the manor indicating Corvril had expected to quickly sway a decision to open the Book of Translation so they stopped in for a bit. I think Haman spoke as well, though even more briefly and not as effectively. Maybe I'm wrong, will check when I get a chance.

 

Algiarin has Ogier rooms so he is a known stopover for Ogier in the vicinity in that sense.

Loial wandering around various stedding would have raised waves of some description in Ogier society.

When the three arrived at Algiarin's manor, (maybe semi-accidentally) they would have learnt the Dragon Reborn and various people including one ogier was there...

Reasonably logical, though not necessarily correct -I don't think you'll get a clear explanation.

 

Yeah the semi-accidentally, ta'veren-driven, reason is something I was hoping to supersede. Oh well. Thanks for the input.

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I thought Mazrim Taim's identity was really obvious, but everyone on this site seems convinced otherwise. I've read the books more than once, but sometimes I do a lot of my reading post ambien, so I'm wondering if I've missed something in the books or if it was just in an interview I never read. I thought he was one of the forsaken or Moridin (I haven't read them in a while, and I get kind of confused with the forsaken because I get a little bored with them, but whichever one was seen in the red and black room). Can someone please tell me what I'm missing?

 

Taim's identity is still a secret to us all, except that he is not Demandred, because RJ has said so multiple times (just straight out: Q: Has Demandred ever posed as Mazrim Taim? A: No.).

 

I can, of course, not be 100% sure he is a secret to us all. Maybe Terez has a theory about him?

Thanks! Who is this ubiquitously mentioned Terez? I'm pretty new to the online scene of WoT.

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I thought Mazrim Taim's identity was really obvious, but everyone on this site seems convinced otherwise. I've read the books more than once, but sometimes I do a lot of my reading post ambien, so I'm wondering if I've missed something in the books or if it was just in an interview I never read. I thought he was one of the forsaken or Moridin (I haven't read them in a while, and I get kind of confused with the forsaken because I get a little bored with them, but whichever one was seen in the red and black room). Can someone please tell me what I'm missing?

 

Taim's identity is still a secret to us all, except that he is not Demandred, because RJ has said so multiple times (just straight out: Q: Has Demandred ever posed as Mazrim Taim? A: No.).

 

I can, of course, not be 100% sure he is a secret to us all. Maybe Terez has a theory about him?

Thanks! Who is this ubiquitously mentioned Terez? I'm pretty new to the online scene of WoT.

 

She's the one who has a post just a little above you. She appears to be somewhat interested in WoT....

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I thought Mazrim Taim's identity was really obvious, but everyone on this site seems convinced otherwise. I've read the books more than once, but sometimes I do a lot of my reading post ambien, so I'm wondering if I've missed something in the books or if it was just in an interview I never read. I thought he was one of the forsaken or Moridin (I haven't read them in a while, and I get kind of confused with the forsaken because I get a little bored with them, but whichever one was seen in the red and black room). Can someone please tell me what I'm missing?

 

Taim's identity is still a secret to us all, except that he is not Demandred, because RJ has said so multiple times (just straight out: Q: Has Demandred ever posed as Mazrim Taim? A: No.).

 

I can, of course, not be 100% sure he is a secret to us all. Maybe Terez has a theory about him?

Thanks! Who is this ubiquitously mentioned Terez? I'm pretty new to the online scene of WoT.

That would be me, for whatever it's worth. I believe that Taim is probably just Taim, but there are a number of people who think he's Moridin. I tend to think that's unlikely for several reasons, but I could be wrong. The main reason I think it unlikely is that Demandred was more or less acting as Nae'blis in LOC, which wouldn't make sense if Moridin had already returned. Of course, Moridin could have been incognito the whole time, but why would Moridin and Taim give different orders in WH? Another argument against it is that Moridin doesn't seem the type to do grunt work if he can make someone else do it, and running the Black Tower - building it from the ground up - was a lot of work. There are other arguments against it, but I believe there is a structured discussion thread on this if you're interested. (I'm not, really, since I believe Taim is probably Taim.) They don't like this thread to get too diverted on one topic. I tend to think that most of the Mazridin evidence is pretty weak (like the black and red thing, and the hand behind the back in TOM - jeez!), and the rest explained by the idea that Taim was trained by Ishamael before he declared himself the Dragon (the same evidence that originally inspired Taimandred).

Edited by Terez
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this has been probably asked before.

can u channel both TP and OP simultaneously?

We don't know. I'm guessing probably not, since one fills oneself with either Power when using it. They probably wouldn't get along.

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I decided that the question of Aran'gar's exploits in the rebel camp deserves its own topic (plus, I don't want it clogging this one). I'm taking the relevant posts to a new one.

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Ok, reading these posts makes me ask more questions than the answers provide... so here is another one that has bothered me since the time I was waiting for Crown of Swords to come out:

 

What happened to the fat little man with the sword (aka Rand's angreal he used until he was captured by the Aei Sedai)? It seems to me the Aei Sedai would know what it is, and would have kept it to take it to the White Tower. If one of the Black Aei Sedai took it for Sammuel or Demandred or... well, you know, then why have we not seen them with it? Perhaps Demandred got it?

Edited by Dreggs Morlock
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