The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[DemandredFO]

I have one, that would be a duh at least, like Vin's Earring.  Mat's Ashanderi, did the Finn's just use it to hang him or does it have greater significance.  He just asked to be free of AS, to have holes in his memory filled and I forget what else but it wasn't to have a weapon.

[Luckers]

I'm pretty sure Slayer, Slayer at Ghenjei, and Mat's Ashendarei were ruled out by Peter Ahlstrom. Not sure about Slayer and Janduin.

[Val Mickey]

I went through Luckers' sticky - and there's no mention of 'Bain/Chiad with Faile' discussions. Bain is the BUT.  :)

[VellNevyn]

Hey all,

Hope this isn't too far off topic _BUT_, it would seem Morgase will be found in Towers of Midnight or at least contact between her and Gawyn seem likely, this could end Gawyn's blind hatred for Rand.

...could this be the Unnoticed thing? or does it even meet the criteria?! I do like the Dr. Suess metaphor though! ;)

Just a thought that occurred to me while I was re-reading The Gathering Storm.

Cheers-Vell

[aunt_pol]

I'm just uneasy of Gawyn's temper getting the better of him when he sees Rand, and Egwene's words not holding him. I know Rand could take him, but I'd prefer he not have to. I'd rather someone else do it.

[Jong]

After Asmodean is cut off from the DO and defeated in the finale of book 4 Lanfear tells Rand and Asmo that she has put a shield on him that limits his abilities. Supposedly the shield will weaken and return him to full strength within a few months... As the story plays out the "shield" remains in place and Asmo never returns to full strength.

 

Just a few chapters earlier, Moghedien is captured by Nynaeve, shielded and tied off. She stays shielded about long enough for Nynaeve to turn around.  According to Lanfear Asmo is not good at breaking shields so perhaps this is not really all that surprising... if you trust Lanfear.

 

Later we see Liandrin is shielded by Moghedien and the knot tied off in such a way that only another forsaken will be able to unravel it. And we see numerous other examples of people being shielded and then breaking free.  But we never see an example of someone partially shielded from the source. The closest thing is the weakening of Suian and Leane who were partially healed after being stilled.

 

Another thing is that we have been told that the 13 Forsaken we know today were just a few who happened to be around when the bore was sealed and that there were in fact 100s of others. We know there is a range of strengths in the power. So it seems reasonable that many of the Forsken would not have been very strong.

 

 

Another interesting fact is that during the conversation with Lanfear, Rand never mentions feeling goosebumps. Maybe he just didn't notice. Or maybe there weren't any. Which could mean that she was using the TP.

 

This leavs 3 options in my view.

 

Option 1. Lanfear was telling the truth. She "shielded" Asmo using a unique weave.

 

Option 2. She used the TP to reduce his strength permanently, not a real shield. This would imply that the DO can also make people stronger?

 

Option 3. Lanfear didn't shield Asmo at all. The black lines... we know they are a link to the DO and that they protect from the taint, but that's about it. It is possible that cutting the link to the DO was what caused Asmodean to loose strength. This would imply that Asmodean was naturally very weak in the  OP. And he was simply being returned to his natural ability level.

 

If that were the case then it is more likely that Lanfear was using compulsion on Asmodean -- to make him think she had him shielded.

 

This may also explain why Cyndane is now weaker than Lanfear used to be.

 

I think this also fits in well with the Mistborn angle. Since the connection to the DO is basicly analogous to the earring.

 

As far as the big impact. This could follow from either options 2 or 3. What, if all the Dark Ashaman and Blakc Ajah are converted to Forsaken and leveled up to the same strength as Asmo/Moggy then that would be a pretty big deal eh?

[PatsNats28]

If Asmodean was weak to begin with, what made him one of the Forsaken vs. a Darkfriend male Aes Sedai? I don't think #3 is true.

[Barid Bel Medar]

All of the 13 sealed forsaken were at least moderately strong in the power. Thus, while Asmodean may not have been up to Rands, Logains, Taims and some of the other AM, he would still be considered above average and still more powerful than 99% of AS. (Not sure about Nynaeve or Alivia etc..)

 

To survive as a Forsaken, one had to be very competent and at least moderately powerful. I do not think he was weak, although, compared to the likes of Demandred, Aginor, Lanfear and Ishamael, he probably was.

[Suttree]

As far as the big impact. This could follow from either options 2 or 3. What, if all the Dark Ashaman and Blakc Ajah are converted to Forsaken and leveled up to the same strength as Asmo/Moggy then that would be a pretty big deal eh?

 

We have no hint or any indication that this is even remotely possible. The DO doesn't have the power to make someone stronger.

[nyneavelan]

I was wondering if this "thing" might not be the parallels (for lack of a better word) that occur.  So for example, when Rand fights the bubble of evil (his own reflections) in book 4 (I think?) to win he has to put away the sword of power.  That makes the reflections' swords disappear too.  After Perrin chops off the Shaido's arm, Rand loses his. So maybe that's the big unnoticed thing--or maybe I am just so new to the Forums and everyone has been discussing these patterns to death and I simply haven't read the discussions!

[Juggler]

re the unnoticed thing comparison with the mistborn series - I have to say the earring things was glaringly obvious I sussed it before we found out the spikes gave additional powers, it was almost forced down our throats, there was no other reason to keep mentioning an earring unless it had some meaning, I keep thinking this should be far more obvious than everyone makes out, is there something we all take for granted and think we already know so that is why it was not seen discussed. could it just be the people tied to the wheel / horn residing in TAR - it's mentioned in book 4 and tapers off after birgitte is thrown out of TAR.

Maybe Perrin will see them - he saw birgitte and gaidal cain in book 4 when hopper didn't

[Lynander]

First time poster here...

 

I have noticed that the Unseen Watchers theory has been dragged out, but at the same time, I think it's the best option available.  When I first heard of the BUT, this is the first thing that came to my mind.  Especially when in Egwene's POV she mentions to herself something about getting so used to that she doesn't even think of it anymore. 

 

On second thought, has the whole Lews Therin voice been talked about?  Didn't that start in TSR? 

[Jong]

As far as the big impact. This could follow from either options 2 or 3. What, if all the Dark Ashaman and Blakc Ajah are converted to Forsaken and leveled up to the same strength as Asmo/Moggy then that would be a pretty big deal eh?

 

We have no hint or any indication that this is even remotely possible. The DO doesn't have the power to make someone stronger.

 

Except for the fact the Asmo's strenght does appear to change. How did this happen? A special shield on him of the OP? Or Lanfear could have used some other TP effect to weaken him. What if "the shield" on Asmo wasn't a shield at all? Asmo losing power could have been the direct result of cutting the cord. If so, then this would seem to be an indication that the DO / TP can change someone's strength.

 

How do you know what the DO can / cannot do? MEssana did not think the DO could make the source dissapear, until it did. Also Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear was -- while none of the other recycled forsaken have changed at all.

 

 

[Duskfire]

As far as the big impact. This could follow from either options 2 or 3. What, if all the Dark Ashaman and Blakc Ajah are converted to Forsaken and leveled up to the same strength as Asmo/Moggy then that would be a pretty big deal eh?

 

We have no hint or any indication that this is even remotely possible. The DO doesn't have the power to make someone stronger.

 

Except for the fact the Asmo's strenght does appear to change. How did this happen? A special shield on him of the OP? Or Lanfear could have used some other TP effect to weaken him. What if "the shield" on Asmo wasn't a shield at all? Asmo losing power could have been the direct result of cutting the cord. If so, then this would seem to be an indication that the DO / TP can change someone's strength.

 

How do you know what the DO can / cannot do? MEssana did not think the DO could make the source dissapear, until it did. Also Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear was -- while none of the other recycled forsaken have changed at all.

 

 

 

I dont think the DO did actually do it, but Jong does have a point. We are talking about a power here that is the opposite of the Creator; who knows what kind of abilities the DO has. Theories regarding the DO doing this or that shouldn't be dismissed because while there has been nothing to suggest the DO can do those things, the fact we know so little about him rebutts against that.

[VellNevyn]

hmmm- the other side of gateways are deadly, or are they?

just some crazy thoughts, really stretching here.

adding my one cent.

best-

Vell ;D

[FarShainMael]

I propose that the BUT is this:

 

Rand al'Thor is the 'seed of the Hammer', the man who drew the Sword from the Stone, the son of Artur Hawkwing, who was reborn as the Aiel chief Janduin, who was killed by Slayer in the Blight, and who was married to Tigraine. The significance is that this would be a decisive factor in 'binding the Nine Moons to serve him'.

 

Details here:

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,60133.0.html

 

This fits the criteria as follows:

 

Books 4-6 or Books 4 and 6?

 

One of the quotations from Brandon reads: ?Somewhere in four and six the

first hints of [the BUT] are mentioned.? However, elsewhere he stated:

'somewhere in one of those three is the beginning of where it shows up.'

 

Janduin, and his death in the Blight, are mentioned in tSR Ch 34/57; in tFoH Ch5; and in LoC Ch16.

 

 

The Ongoing Principle

 

Brandon stated that: 'It's been going for a long time.? And that entries in

books 4-6 are 'not the only time it's ever mentioned. It is' *hints about

this hidden thing* appear in pretty much' in several of the books.'

 

The BUT is referenced outside books 4-6.

Second, that the BUT is an event, action or effect.

It has been 'going on' for some time, not 'existing' for some time. This

does not wholly rule out it being an object, but it does require that if it

is an object that it is doing something, or something is occurring due to

it. It may even be as simple as the way characters are reacting or not

reacting to it, but it has to be more than its existence which is

significant.

 

There are several factors pointing to Rand's father being Hawkwing reborn, such as the Dark Prophecy (though this is in tGH), and the names of the characters surrounding his mother, and indeed of al'Thor himself. Even his foster-father Tam, whose name recalls Tamyrlin, or Merlin, Arthur's mentor. These are principal characters in the books. Then there's the sword Justice, which belonged to Hawkwing, and felt 'right' in Rand's hand. And which was found under water, recalling the Lady of the Lake.

 

 

The Discussion Factor

 

Brandon said that he has never seen anyone discussing this point in his

lurking on the Forums. That being said he reiterated several times that that

does not mean that it hadn't been discussed.

 

The connections of various characters to Arthurian legend have been discussed constantly; but I don't think this particular aspect has come up.

 

Revelation Requirements

 

Brandon said that: 'it's something we should have picked up on when it

appeared.'

 

Considering Rand's mother's name was Tigraine, and Arthur's mother was called Igraine, then yes.

 

But the principal point, that we should ALL have noticed, was this:

 

Al'Thor drew the Sword from the Stone.

 

(Aagh. I cannot BELIEVE I missed this. Yes, I noticed it on my first read-through, and thought: yeah, he's drawn the sword from the stone, nice touch.. but that was long before I'd heard about the BUT. Heck, even Tuon's PoV in tGS calls him al'Thor!

 

Talk about hiding something in plain sight.. facepalm)

 

Now, admittedly this happens in book 3, but very late on (tDR Ch 55) so either Brandon's memory was not quite accurate, or he was indulging in a little gentle misdirection.. because from that moment on we should have been looking out for Rand's true dad.

 

 

 

(If this bit doesn't make it through the transfer to the new boards I'll repost it.)

 

Presence in the Later Books

 

As said in the Ongoing Principal, the BUT continues in the later books.

However, Brandon stated that the clue does not become more relevant in the

later books. This means that the issue should remain at the same level of

obscurity, if not stepping back even further into the background.

 

Rand's biological parentage has not been mentioned again since Book VI.

 

Potential Impact

 

Brandon said that we would be astonished when we found it, and that it was

an issue that would be bigger than Asmodean (meaning how the fans would

regard it. It will almost certainly have a bigger impact on the plot than

Asmodean's death did).

 

Consider the effect on Empress Fortuona (mslf) of realising that the man who is seeking a truce with her, possibly an alliance, is the son of Artur Hawkwing!

 

 

[retep]

First-time poster here.

 

Didn't have time to read to 280+ pages of posts so I don't know if this has been discussed already.

 

My take on the BUT.

I think it has to do with Rand, the voice, and what this really means. Rand starts to hear Lews Therin somewhere around book 5 I think.

In TGS we learn that this voice was actually not real. So what does this mean? I think we were led to believe that Rand created this voice, like an alternate identity, as a vent for his emotions or something like it. There have been theories on this.

 

But I've been re-reading the series, and I have a theory that Rand is Lews Therin, not just reborn in the common sense, but actually Lews Therins soul in Rands body, like the recycled forsaken, and that Rand is the alternate identity, created by Lews Therin unconsciously, so he does not have to cope with what he is.

 

This fits with the criteria of the BUT. Lews Therin breaking through the Rand identity starts in book 4, because there is a scene there I believe with Lanfear where Rand actually acts like Lews Therin. Then in FOH, there is again a scene with Lanfear where the Rand character completely disappears for a short while, and Lews Therin is all that remains for a moment. This is even given more strength in a later POV from Mat where Rand does not even respond to his name when Mat calls him, and then when Mat calls him "Lews Therin" he does respond. Lews Therin slowly begins to break through the Rand identity from this point.

 

The big surprise that Brandon does not want spoiled for TOM is that, now that Lews Therin (Rand) came to accept this and sort of cured himself in Veins of Gold, , the Rand identity will actually disappear, and that he will be referred to as Lews Therin in the remaining books. That would fit with the "to live, you must die" prophecy also. Rand died, Lews Therin lives.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ashaman Kovan]

Except that the voice has been discussed to death on the forums and IIRC RJ or BS said the voice and it's realness, or lack thereof, is one of the things that is going to be intentionally left unresolved/unexplained. So the only part of the criteria it fits is that it's ongoing and it started in the early books. And either way the issue has been pretty much resolved. Whether you're a realist or you believe the voice was a construct, either way it's gone now.

[Owayn The Traveller]

My Butt theory is:

 

Something to do with Perrin

[PatsNats28]

My Butt theory is:

 

Something to do with Perrin

 

Nothing important happened to him in the Two Rivers though... it would have to pertain to Fain or Slayer then I suppose.

[FarShainMael]

No, nothing at all... just beating off Trollocs, avoiding hanging by telling the Whitecloaks to get stuffed, and getting married..

 

[dragonlord741]

I just finished reading this entire thread, and a couple of things popped out at me from items I saw others post...my comments are not necessarily the BUT, but just observations I made:

 

Mat's Ashandarei - someone mentioned that they thought there was some iron in/part of the spear.  Now the third of Mat's wishes was "a way out of here". Could the Ashandarei be part of him getting out of Finnland when he visits in the next book (and not the first trip)?  Does it have the iron in it that is part of the fire to blind, iron to bind quote?  The quote on the haft talks about the treaty written and agreement made - could him simply showing it to the finn's remind them of the agreement and "bind" them to their word?

 

Being shielded - someone else posted and reminded me that Lanfear told Rand she had shielded Asmo, and that he wouldn't be able to break it until it dissipated on its own, because he "could never embrace the pain" - does this mean that it is possible to break out of a shield, something Nyn was investigating with the Sea Folk?  Can none of the "good guys" get out of a shield because they can't embrace some certain "pain" that is necessary to do so?

 

 

 

[TheDecline01]

All the wildfires around Moscow made me realized what the BUT is:

 

Even though there is this unnatural heat wave and drought during books 5-6 there is not a single one wildfire mentioned in the books. What else but the BUT can that be? I think it has something to do with the Creator intervening on the world to counterbalance in some way the influence of the Dark One which is going against all notions of balance.

 

I am now going back to my cell.

 

 

Though I'm kidding, I still think that's something RJ may have forgotten. Just a detail.

[Orderofolde]

When Rand was in the box being taken to Tar Valon, at Dumai's Wells the shield was tied off or still being maintained but by fewer (can't remember exactly, I think by fewer than it had been) and he found that tiny spot where it was flawed and drew microscopic flows through it and shattered the shield, creating those few holding it to be stilled, and he was free.  The shield put around Asmo looks as if it might have been beginning to dissipate bit by bit, and we know that Lanfear tied it off so intricately that only she would undo it, but it did allow him to draw power through it.

 

Back to shields though, iirc, tied off ones that are not maintained are easier to break out of than those that are maintained, there is specific mention of feeling the knot going hard (tied off) or soft (being maintained).  Someone could probably offer a lot more in depth to this though. 

[Demiandre]

When Rand was in the box being taken to Tar Valon, at Dumai's Wells the shield was tied off or still being maintained but by fewer (can't remember exactly, I think by fewer than it had been) and he found that tiny spot where it was flawed and drew microscopic flows through it and shattered the shield, creating those few holding it to be stilled, and he was free.  The shield put around Asmo looks as if it might have been beginning to dissipate bit by bit, and we know that Lanfear tied it off so intricately that only she would undo it, but it did allow him to draw power through it.

 

Back to shields though, iirc, tied off ones that are not maintained are easier to break out of than those that are maintained, there is specific mention of feeling the knot going hard (tied off) or soft (being maintained).  Someone could probably offer a lot more in depth to this though. 

 

And it reminds me of Mogh capture by Nynaeve in Tanchico in tSR. She escaped the shield by untying it IIRC. And Moggy put an intricately woven shield around Liandrin after that, and says that she would have a hard time managing to escape if he find the method, or something like that...

 

But maintained shield with enough person is impossible I seem to remember. They have to be.tied or held by fewer than 4 person. So there isn't a lot of mystery or big revelation to come out of it...