The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[mossman87]

     Not entirely sure where to put this, so I decided to make a tenuous connection to the Big Unnoticed Thing, and post it here.  Fundamentally my question is why the forces of the Dark Lord agreed to stop using balefire during the war.  Although it was, perhaps, only made completely clear in The Gathering Storm, during that dream meeting that Rand had with Moridin, it has been fairly obvious for many books that the goal of the Dark Lord is to destroy the pattern.  In fact, maybe it was somewhere during books 4-6 that this concept was first really revealed.  So the goal of the Dark Lord is to break the wheel and end the pattern, etc., etc.  Many people have said that balefire is very dangerous to the pattern.  Why didn't he just get a bunch of his followers to balefire the crap out of everything all the time until the pattern unravelled?  I have some thoughts, but I'd like to here yours.

 

The Pattern would do everything to stop it, probably.

[navahgar]

      Not entirely sure where to put this, so I decided to make a tenuous connection to the Big Unnoticed Thing, and post it here.  Fundamentally my question is why the forces of the Dark Lord agreed to stop using balefire during the war.  Although it was, perhaps, only made completely clear in The Gathering Storm, during that dream meeting that Rand had with Moridin, it has been fairly obvious for many books that the goal of the Dark Lord is to destroy the pattern.  In fact, maybe it was somewhere during books 4-6 that this concept was first really revealed.  So the goal of the Dark Lord is to break the wheel and end the pattern, etc., etc.  Many people have said that balefire is very dangerous to the pattern.  Why didn't he just get a bunch of his followers to balefire the crap out of everything all the time until the pattern unravelled?  I have some thoughts, but I'd like to here yours.

 

The Pattern would do everything to stop it, probably.

 

Hmm...that's kind of a cop out of an answer I think...it's possible, but if that's the reason I'd feel robbed...I was thinking maybe the chosen didn't have enough power to truly damage the pattern (maybe only rand with the choden kal could)....but I'd rather it's something like the Dark Lord doesn't actually want to destroy the pattern for some reason

[Padraic_Seebrr]

      Not entirely sure where to put this, so I decided to make a tenuous connection to the Big Unnoticed Thing, and post it here.  Fundamentally my question is why the forces of the Dark Lord agreed to stop using balefire during the war.  Although it was, perhaps, only made completely clear in The Gathering Storm, during that dream meeting that Rand had with Moridin, it has been fairly obvious for many books that the goal of the Dark Lord is to destroy the pattern.  In fact, maybe it was somewhere during books 4-6 that this concept was first really revealed.  So the goal of the Dark Lord is to break the wheel and end the pattern, etc., etc.  Many people have said that balefire is very dangerous to the pattern.  Why didn't he just get a bunch of his followers to balefire the crap out of everything all the time until the pattern unravelled?  I have some thoughts, but I'd like to here yours.

 

The Pattern would do everything to stop it, probably.

 

Hmm...that's kind of a cop out of an answer I think...it's possible, but if that's the reason I'd feel robbed...I was thinking maybe the chosen didn't have enough power to truly damage the pattern (maybe only rand with the choden kal could)....but I'd rather it's something like the Dark Lord doesn't actually want to destroy the pattern for some reason

 

Well, realize that the Forsaken expect to rule the world when the Shadow wins. Only Ishy realizes the pattern will be destroyed if the Shadow wins. So it makes sense that the Forsaken don't want the pattern destroyed, because they are idiots and expect to rule a dead world.

[Morsker]

Well Cadsuane and Min also realize the Pattern will be destroyed if the Dark One wins. It's hard to see how Darkfriends have such a hard time realizing it. Are they all blinded by greed?

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Well Cadsuane and Min also realize the Pattern will be destroyed if the Dark One wins. It's hard to see how Darkfriends have such a hard time realizing it. Are they all blinded by greed?

 

Yup. Greed and hunger for power.

[Val Mickey]

Well Cadsuane and Min also realize the Pattern will be destroyed if the Dark One wins. It's hard to see how Darkfriends have such a hard time realizing it. Are they all blinded by greed?

They believe the Pattern will be remade in the DO's image. I guess DFship is like a religion.

[Juggler]

Why Kill Master Fel? He had something for rand based upon the seals on the dark ones prison. What had Fel found that made him such a danger he would have a Gholam sent after him.

 

More to the point as Fel hardly saw or spoke to anyone how did anyone know to send a Gholam after him?

 

The other thing I reckon it could be is Rand becoming a dad - I can't remember the exact prophesy but - His blood shed on the slopes of Shayol ghul makes me think Elayne will give birth mid Last Battle much like Rands mum did on Dragonmount.

 

Rands child Is Gaidal Cain! he's not been born yet, he's only been conceived and is in Elaynes tummy, as she will have twins - the other will be Birgitte, so when she gives birth Birgitte will fade away but will retain the bond in a new and novel way as mother to child. Although the trouble with that Theory is a little incestuous feelings between Rands kids, so quite unlikely - do think that's how they'll be born though.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Why Kill Master Fel? He had something for rand based upon the seals on the dark ones prison. What had Fel found that made him such a danger he would have a Gholam sent after him.

 

More to the point as Fel hardly saw or spoke to anyone how did anyone know to send a Gholam after him?

 

The other thing I reckon it could be is Rand becoming a dad - I can't remember the exact prophesy but - His blood shed on the slopes of Shayol ghul makes me think Elayne will give birth mid Last Battle much like Rands mum did on Dragonmount.

 

Rands child Is Gaidal Cain! he's not been born yet, he's only been conceived and is in Elaynes tummy, as she will have twins - the other will be Birgitte, so when she gives birth Birgitte will fade away but will retain the bond in a new and novel way as mother to child. Although the trouble with that Theory is a little incestuous feelings between Rands kids, so quite unlikely - do think that's how they'll be born though.

 

I think Fel was already ruled out.

 

I like the theory about Rand's blood shed on Shayol Ghul meaning Elayne giving birth there, but what would that do to the kids you think O.o?

 

And the Gaidal Cain thing I hope happens =O it'd be epic. But wheres he going to get the ugly gene? Rand and Elayne are both rather handsome/beautiful folks.

[DocBean]

Rands child Is Gaidal Cain! he's not been born yet, he's only been conceived and is in Elaynes tummy, as she will have twins - the other will be Birgitte, so when she gives birth Birgitte will fade away but will retain the bond in a new and novel way as mother to child. Although the trouble with that Theory is a little incestuous feelings between Rands kids, so quite unlikely - do think that's how they'll be born though.

 

Um no.

It's widely believed that Ellayne's babies are the brother and Sister Heroes of the Horn – Calian the Chooser and Shivan the Hunter

They ALWAYS usher in a new age.

 

and since she's due right around the time of the last battle, then we'd be ready to start a new age.

[rm1759]

Sorry, no patience to read all of this, but I did get a link to Lucker's theory back on page number 236 http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,50458.msg1621564.html#msg1621564.

 

(I think others may have mentioned it before him, but his was the post I found, if I need to reassign credit, please let me know and I will edit my post)

 

His theory is the big unnamed thing are the watchers in t'a'r'.  I think this theory is the most viable.

 

However, I have something to add, I am not sure if someone else might have in the other million posts here, but I think the unseen eyes are the *finn. 

 

Obviously there won't be any way to prove this now, but the tower of genjei had a different significance than other "reflections" in T'A'R, Birgitte mentions to Perrin that it is evil, and that he needs to stay away.

 

In addition, somehow, slayer entered it, so slayer may have a piece to play with the *finn as well.  Additionally, doesn't slayer seem to have the ability to step outside the pattern, kind of like what Moridin does when he uses the True Power to travel?  Since the *finn's world is also outside of the pattern, maybe this is related as well...

 

My last point to make on this is the writing style Jordan used when describing the people who entered those twisted doorways, they felt dirty, and when inside it had a very eery feel.  He uses the same style when describing the unseen eyes, although much more moderated, although it "feels" similar to me...

 

 

[DocBean]

Sorry, no patience to read all of this, but I did get a link to Lucker's theory back on page number 236 http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,50458.msg1621564.html#msg1621564.

(I think others may have mentioned it before him, but his was the post I found, if I need to reassign credit, please let me know and I will edit my post)

His theory is the big unnamed thing are the watchers in t'a'r'.  I think this theory is the most viable.

However, I have something to add, I am not sure if someone else might have in the other million posts here, but I think the unseen eyes are the *finn.  

Obviously there won't be any way to prove this now, but the tower of genjei had a different significance than other "reflections" in T'A'R, Birgitte mentions to Perrin that it is evil, and that he needs to stay away.

In addition, somehow, slayer entered it, so slayer may have a piece to play with the *finn as well.  Additionally, doesn't slayer seem to have the ability to step outside the pattern, kind of like what Moridin does when he uses the True Power to travel?  Since the *finn's world is also outside of the pattern, maybe this is related as well...

My last point to make on this is the writing style Jordan used when describing the people who entered those twisted doorways, they felt dirty, and when inside it had a very eery feel.  He uses the same style when describing the unseen eyes, although much more moderated, although it "feels" similar to me...

 

the problem with that theory is that it's the one Luckers believes.

He hasn't updated the sticky thread since posting his version of the theory.

 

I think his version is great, but I think he's also shut the door on others that have come up since March.

but then again for all I know, maybe he's the one that emailed Brandon, and Brandon confirmed it.

[mossman87]

I still believe the Unseen Watchers are just everyone's mind.  It makes sense to have TAR being everyone's collective conscience.  Especially telling is that Ogier can't be dreamwalkers.  I'd imagine because they aren't of this world, and thus not of that one's collective consciousness.

 

Half baked, but so am I.

[DocBean]

This was pulled from another thread, thought it should be here:

 

When was Brigette pulled out of the Dream World?

 

Wouldn't this be a way for Rand to die and live again?

if his soul went to the dream world after his death, then couldn't Nyaneve pull him back out like what Moggy did to Brigette?

She saw what happend, and could reproduce the weaves.

 

We've also seen the Forsaken try to keep everyone out of the Dream World.

 

Egwene said Suin has a copy of the dream ring that Sheriam couldn't find, and I think Leane had one when she was captured also.

maybe that's why Messana wanted them so bad, and why Lanfear tried to steal the original one earlier in the books.

Maybe the Dark One knows that resurrection is possible in T'A'R, and is ordering the Chosen and Slayer to keep Lightfriends out of there.

 

I'd say this theory fits pretty well, and has the possibility of huge implications in the future.

[Crael123]

im sorry but i just dont even care anymore.

[Crael123]

This was pulled from another thread, thought it should be here:

 

When was Brigette pulled out of the Dream World?

 

Wouldn't this be a way for Rand to die and live again?

if his soul went to the dream world after his death, then couldn't Nyaneve pull him back out like what Moggy did to Brigette?

She saw what happend, and could reproduce the weaves.

 

We've also seen the Forsaken try to keep everyone out of the Dream World.

 

Egwene said Suin has a copy of the dream ring that Sheriam couldn't find, and I think Leane had one when she was captured also.

maybe that's why Messana wanted them so bad, and why Lanfear tried to steal the original one earlier in the books.

Maybe the Dark One knows that resurrection is possible in T'A'R, and is ordering the Chosen and Slayer to keep Lightfriends out of there.

 

I'd say this theory fits pretty well, and has the possibility of huge implications in the future.

 

Birgitte pulled in tFoH.

 

she didnt see any weaves, it was a massive black wall of nothing.

 

and yes it is possible

[mossman87]

This was pulled from another thread, thought it should be here:

 

When was Brigette pulled out of the Dream World?

 

Wouldn't this be a way for Rand to die and live again?

if his soul went to the dream world after his death, then couldn't Nyaneve pull him back out like what Moggy did to Brigette?

She saw what happend, and could reproduce the weaves.

 

We've also seen the Forsaken try to keep everyone out of the Dream World.

 

Egwene said Suin has a copy of the dream ring that Sheriam couldn't find, and I think Leane had one when she was captured also.

maybe that's why Messana wanted them so bad, and why Lanfear tried to steal the original one earlier in the books.

Maybe the Dark One knows that resurrection is possible in T'A'R, and is ordering the Chosen and Slayer to keep Lightfriends out of there.

 

I'd say this theory fits pretty well, and has the possibility of huge implications in the future.

 

Yeah I've talked about this.  We've basically seen resurrection in WoT.  Nynaeve has said she won't stop until she revives someone 3 days dead.  She learns weaves the first time she sees them.

 

I've been saying for awhile somehow Rand will die and Nyn will go into TAR and find him.  Maybe with the help from other Heroes.. maybe that's the wolves role in all this?  Perrin will find Rand in TAR.  Maybe it'll come to Nyn beforehand and she and Rand will make plans!

 

Only two more books!

[DocBean]

she didnt see any weaves, it was a massive black wall of nothing.

 

 

she saw the light surrounding Moggy so brightly that she shined like the sun.

Moggy must have been weaving something for her to use that much power.

 

Moggy forced Brigette out using the Power.

and Nyaneve was there to witness it.

[mossman87]

she didnt see any weaves, it was a massive black wall of nothing.

 

 

she saw the light surrounding Moggy so brightly that she shined like the sun.

Moggy must have been weaving something for her to use that much power.

 

Moggy forced Brigette out using the Power.

and Nyaneve was there to witness it.

 

And we know normal people can handle souls somehow anyway, since AOLers transplanted souls into the Nym.  Doesn't really mean much here, but shows that souls are able to be messed with quite easily if you have the knowledge.

 

Definitely think we'll be seeing a Jesus 3 day rezzing from Nyn.

[DocBean]

I think you guys found it.

 

I'm going to give this one my vote – Rand will be resurrected by Nyaneve the same way that Birgette was resurrected by Moggy.

That's the big missed thing, to hell with that Unseen Watchers theory.

 

this one fits, and is way more dumbstriking then the watchers.

 

It's one of those: "How did we not talk about this earlier?" types of theories, and I don't remember it coming up before in the forums.

[mossman87]

Oh I don't think it's the Big Thing, but I absolutely agree that no one talks about it.  Been on these sites for 10 years and I've always been baffled how everyone ignores that we've seen dead people resurrected, no matter what form it was.

 

And the fact it was infront of Nynaeve.  Who learns weaves after seeing them once.

 

Edit:

 

Recently from Brandon:

Q: Will we see Nynaeve Heal the darkness that it in some of the male channelers before the Cleansing?

A: Nynaeve has said before, and believes, that everything can and should be able to be Healed, except for maybe death, and she certainly believes that it is possible. I’m not going to say whether or not it will happen.

 

The [second] question was if burned out channelers could be Healed as severed or stilled channelers could. His answer, paraphrased because I wasn't recording and I was laughing at what he wrote was:  "Nynaeve thinks that there is nothing that cannot be Healed. She was right about Healing stilling and she is on the right track."

 

So he keeps bringing it up at least.

 

Oh and Nynaeve in LOC:

 

But what if one of her failures did worse than simply not work, or not work very well? Aes Sedai had been stilled studying ter’angreal. Burned out, it was called when it happened by accident, yet it was just as final. Nynaeve did not think so, of course, but Nynaeve would not be satisfied till she Healed somebody three days dead.

 

It's gonna happen folks somehow!

[Barid Bel Medar]

Also, theres always the parallels with the number 3. Three women. Three becomming one. Healing 3 days dead? Jesus anyone?

[mossman87]

Also, theres always the parallels with the number 3. Three women. Three becomming one. Healing 3 days dead? Jesus anyone?

 

Oh, yeah absolutely, I meant to comment on the Jesus parallel to Three Days Dead and why I find it even more likely to happen because of that.

 

Time flows differently in TAR, it may only be seconds that Nynaeve takes to do this, but in the real world 3 days would pass.

[DemandredFO]

The biggest problem I see is that Moghedien ripping Birgitte out nearly killed her so Nyneave is probably going to have to find another way.

[mossman87]

The biggest problem I see is that Moghedien ripping Birgitte out nearly killed her so Nyneave is probably going to have to find another way.

 

Nynaeve knows of the experience now.  I'm sure his women will be right there to bind him.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The biggest problem I see is that Moghedien ripping Birgitte out nearly killed her so Nyneave is probably going to have to find another way.

 

Well... he would already be dead....

 

He doesnt have that much to lose...

 

Edit: oh, i agree that it would most likely mess up the soul (isnt Birgitte not connected to the horn or something like that, something bad becasuse she was ripped out in any case)

 

BUT

 

If the DR isnt revived (assuming he will die before the LB) the shadow wins and everything is destroyed anyway, so really they have nothing to loose.

 

Plus, when has something being dangerous ever stopped Nynaeve anyway? :D